theory [OB] Aimians are of Cultivation

[Willshaping Crasher]

1 hour ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

From the Axies the collector Interlude, the Curse of Kind is used in a way that seems to be a descriptor of how Siah Aimians leave a train of bad luck in their wake

Personally, I did not see this as leaving bad luck.  I took "Curse of Kind" to mean that people would be left with fortune related to how they treated him (kind of a karma concept).  We have not seen Axies treated well yet. 

I'm probably wrong, but that is how I envisioned it.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

15 minutes ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

Personally, I did not see this as leaving bad luck.  I took "Curse of Kind" to mean that people would be left with fortune related to how they treated him (kind of a karma concept).  We have not seen Axies treated well yet. 

If it was simply Karma and you received back what you put in, then I think the Siah Aimians wouldn't be thought of as bringing bad luck (as they obviously are in the Rysn interlude). If you received good luck if you treated them kindly, this would be a property of their race that was widely known, their is no evidence of this, no mention of rubbing a Siah Aimian's head for good luck or any other such folk superstition. I don't have ironclad proof, but I think it's pretty close to proven that the Siah Aimian have a proximate affect on people around them that makes the people around them experience unfortunate things.

[Willshaping Crasher]

47 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

If it was simply Karma and you received back what you put in, then I think the Siah Aimians wouldn't be thought of as bringing bad luck (as they obviously are in the Rysn interlude). If you received good luck if you treated them kindly, this would be a property of their race that was widely known, their is no evidence of this, no mention of rubbing a Siah Aimian's head for good luck or any other such folk superstition. I don't have ironclad proof, but I think it's pretty close to proven that the Siah Aimian have a proximate affect on people around them that makes the people around them experience unfortunate things.

Again, I see no proof of this.  You wish to equate folk superstition (and I might add, folk superstition which is inherently degrading such as rubbing their head) as evidence of your point.  I don't see this as being in any way convincing.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

@Willshaping Crasher you are totally right, all this is in the realm of speculative surmise. I do like the idea of "The Curse Of Kind" being a sort of karmic resonance, but I don't think it fits the evidence of the primary source.

At this point I could agree to disagree with you, but if you want to read further argument, I have some spoilered below:

Spoiler

As far as I know (again could be wrong) we only have two times in the SLA where Siah Aimians appear onscreen. The Axies the Collector interlude in TWoK and the Rysn interlude in WoR. In both of these interludes there is only mention of the bad luck that Siah Aimian cause. If there was a positive luck corollary it seems to me like it would be mentioned. Also, most compelling, is how Rysn instictively shies away from the Aimian. She even comments about how she is not superstitious and doesn't really believe in the Thaylen Passions, but seeing an Aimian is just too much for her. Given the fact that they are very few Aimians left on Roshar, this implies (to me) that the bad luck they drag in their wake is VERY BAD NEWS if someone who discounts her native countries superstition is still afraid of a Roshar wide superstition.

If you don't want my two cents, can I have them back I need to buy some more pop....

[Willshaping Crasher]

56 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

At this point I could agree to disagree with you, but if you want to read further argument, I have some spoilered below:

 

56 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

  Hide contents

As far as I know (again could be wrong) we only have two times in the SLA where Siah Aimians appear onscreen. The Axies the Collector interlude in TWoK and the Rysn interlude in WoR. In both of these interludes there is only mention of the bad luck that Siah Aimian cause. If there was a positive luck corollary it seems to me like it would be mentioned. Also, most compelling, is how Rysn instictively shies away from the Aimian. She even comments about how she is not superstitious and doesn't really believe in the Thaylen Passions, but seeing an Aimian is just too much for her. Given the fact that they are very few Aimians left on Roshar, this implies (to me) that the bad luck they drag in their wake is VERY BAD NEWS if someone who discounts her native countries superstition is still afraid of a Roshar wide superstition.

I think we must agree to disagree.  I realize people like Rysn (I like her too), however, given her assumptions towards the Shin, I can't think of her as a open minded individual in these scenes.  Perhaps they show her as becoming more open minded?  Her shying away just shows she has not experienced different cultures enough.  It in no way convinces me that Siah Aimians are bad luck.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

@Willshaping Crasher it probably won't be convincing (considering he's another Thaylen and most likely shares her fundamental beliefs, i.e. superstitions) but the escort she has, Krylm, seems equally worried about the Siah Aimian's bad luck rubbing off on them.

Quote

"What fell curses did you bring on this people, beast?" Kylrm demanded.

 

[Kaleid]

2 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

If you received good luck if you treated them kindly, this would be a property of their race that was widely known

 

Unless there were already rumours that they bring bad luck. Which would cause people to treat them badly. Which would perpetuate the rumour.

 

What you're doing is almost exactly how I see this going in-world. "But there's no evidence they give us good luck! Surely there'd be rumours about rubbing their heads or something for luck. Let's kick him out onto the street so we don't get unlucky!"

 

I mean, it's not like the people of Roshar have a good track record here. See their treatment of Parshmen. They seem to consider Aimians to be sub-human.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Kaleid

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

6 minutes ago, Kaleid said:

Unless there were already rumours that they bring bad luck. Which would cause people to treat them badly. Which would perpetuate the rumour.

What you're doing is almost exactly how I see this going in-world. "But there's no evidence they give us good luck! Surely there'd be rumours about rubbing their heads or something for luck. Let's kick him out onto the street so we don't get unlucky!"

I think I might have erred by saying that to get good fortune people would be likely to rub the heads of Siah Aimians. I understand that this is belittling, but I was just trying to convey that if they had a good luck effect based on how people treated them then there would be a different Rosharan view of them, and possibly this would create at least a state of wariness in regards to how people interacted with the Siah Aimians. But they seem to be, like in Stranger in a Strange Land, the lowest of the low, the group that you can kick without any Karmic repercussions because they are a living curse.

I personally would be very happy to hear that after the urchin stole Axies blanket wrap in the Interlude, that he tripped and fell face first into a pile of chull dung, becuase that is what he deserves. But I think the whole point is that Siah Aimians have taken upon themselves "The Curse of Kind", the offsetting bad luck so that good luck (or limited prescient sight into the future) can be granted to another important tool in Cultivation's garage.

I love Axies the collector, but he seems to be at peace with his place in the Cosmere, what's another week in jail when you live an immortal life? A chance to find captivity spren!

[Kaleid]

I was using your head running analogy as an analogy. You can replace "rub head" with "give a bowl of hot soup" or "a roof to rest under" or even just "a kind word".

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

I totally agree. I feel bad for the Siah Aimians, but if you look at Axies he seems pretty happy with his lot in life. Resigned to the fact that he is a burdensome boil on the fresh pink cheek of the world. I actually think that this is remarkable, he has his own mission in life, and as evidenced by his interlude he doesn't want bad luck to affect people around him, because he leaves the beggar in the alley (probably a herald) before his bad luck can rub off.

I guess this is the conundrum, obviously you can't hug the world with Nuclear arms, but if you hug Chernobyl and your arms fall off, whose fault is it that you have no arms.

This is why Brandon is such an amazing author, writing characters that are deeply sympathetic with obvious flaws. I think Axies is a deeply likable character with an unchangeable external, inherited flaw. He would not curse people if he could help it,but he can't help it so he lives his life as well as he can, trying to mitigate the unfortuante effects of his mere existence.

[Subvisual Haze]

I do like your line of thought on bad luck, I kind of missed that on my previous read throughs of Axies chapters.  The Rysn chapter, we could easily dismiss that as simple prejudice against Aimians as the thoughts are being expressed by non-Aimians.  The Axies POV chapter though, he himself seems to believe that some level of bad luck does follow him around.  I'm not sure if this is a red herring or not, but usually Brandon is up to something when he drops repeated themes like that.  Good catch!

[Wit Beyond Measure]

I thought this was an interesting response, mostly because I would have expected something more like, "Damnation no!"  Hmm.

Quote

Chaos [PENDING REVIEW]

So Sleepless have held Surges. Have they been Radiants before?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

RAFO.

 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

@Wit Beyond Measure I think that there were historical cases of Dysian Aimians becoming Knights Radiant, the back of book quote from TWoK heavily implies this:

On Thursday, January 04, 2018 at 5:57 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

The world can change.

Surgebinding and Shardweilding can return; the magic of the ancient days can become ours again.

I think it would be freaking awesome to see some Sleepless Radiants, but this raises some interesting questions:

1. How would the Nahel bond Work?

   We know that the Nahel bond is a symbiotic relationship between a higher spren and a Knight Radiant. The spren gains sapience and the KR gets access to 2 surges. I think what the spren is really getting is access to experience in a changing dynamic system,  filtered through the cognitve lens of the consciousness of the KR. This cognitive filter helps the spren interpret that experience, which allows the spren to change and grow. We know that Shadesmar is far more static than the Physical Realm, which makes sense. Ideas evolve over time, but they have a certain fixity or else they wouldn't be commonly held ideas. We also know that the Singers think that the spren abandoned them for the humans because:

   Quote

   "We can't provide what the humans lend,
   Though broth are we, their meat is men"
   (from the Listener Song of Spren, WoR chapter 32)

   I think this is pretty direct evidence of the above analysis, the Singers are basically stuck in one Cognitive mode, so how they view and experience the world, i.e. their cognitive filter, limits their perception of the world. Each form comes with an innate mentatility that consciousness sits behind.

   So given that Dysian Aimians are a vast complex of sensory apparatus, capable of distributing their consciousness across time and space, this seems like they should have Spren beating down their doors to form Nahel bonds. Talk about a fast track to Sapience for the bonded spren, they can be in multiple places, experiencing multiple different facets of reality from multiple perspectives filtered through the Cognitive lens of what is essentially a Cognitive entity.

2. Would a Dysian Aimian be able to bond more than one higher Spren?

   So the one Sleepless we have seen is Arclo in Edgedancer, and he is building a Grand philosophy by examining how the parts of a thing make up the whole. He asks Lift what part of the body she thinks she is most like, and then he goes onto to describe a city as a vast organism composed of individual people that are like small pieces of this larger organism. This obviously parallels how his Identity works, but the more interesting part is the idea that Identity can be broken down into constituent pieces. Could a Dysian Aimian create multiple assemblages of hordelings that act like two or more people? What is the limit to this splitting apart and incorporating? Could you have a small town, populated with Hordeling puppets that are all the same Dysian Aimian? Could their identity be split apart where they can project into one Hordeling puppet the constituent quality of their Identity of Leading or Protecting? And into another the quality of Pious or Guiding?

   Ok, this is the fun bit. We've seen Shallan fracture her identity into 3 parts, how much easier would this be for a Dysian Aimian to do? We know that it is theoretically possible for humans to bond more than one spren from this WoB:

   Spoiler

   tganchero (paraphrased)

   Is it true that humans can bond to multiple spren?

   Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

   They can theoretically bond to multiple spren.

   Seems like with their ability to store memories externally into different hordelings, that it might be possible to intentionally create the perfect vessels to attract specific spren.

   Also, their is a mention of flying cremlings seen in the hills outside of Yeddaw, how rad would it be to have a Dysian Aimian Elsecalling Radiant composed out of flying cremlings that is sharing consciousness with another Knight Radiant Windrunner? 
   
   Picture if you will, the Windrunner persona of the Sleepless painting a wide swath of the ground with a glowing line of Adhesion as the Elsecaller Sleepless persona flies through the air and turns into a giant hand composed of cremlings that flies into the back of the thunderclast stuck on the adhesion line and transforms his rocky body into Crystal. Freaking rad!

3. Could a Dysian Aimian bond the Sibling???
   I think this would be the best! The Sleepless could split off a portion of themselves to man the Engine Room back at Urithiru (consequently enough to maintain their consciouness if anything happens to their other hordelings making them functional unkillable) and have another portion of themselves fighting on the front lines. This would be rad, and it would be a way around the curse of the 3rd bondsmith, that of basically being consigned to fiddling with the controls of Urithiru while the war marches on.

This is all speculative to be sure, but HOLY CRAP this would be RAD!

Edited January 7, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Tobbzn]

It feels like it almost would fit, but at the same time it feels too simple.

Imo, there has to be something about the story of the moons in the post-OB Siah theory. Cultivation (The green moon) was involved somehow, yes, but she was tricked into it. Perhaps she had made the Dysian Aimians on her own, and someone tricked the secret from her and stole some of Honor's power to make the Siah? That would be consistent with the comparatively limited body-manipulation, if they're just a "cheap knockoff" of the real thing. I also feel like there should be life and death to Cultivation's power, like how the Hordelings have to be replaced over time. The Siah aren't like that - they don't feel very Cultivation, more Corrupted Spren-y. Unless... perhaps the ability to die was taken from them because the Dysians go through it a lot more often?

And oh hey, you linked to a dedicated Moon Story Thread. I wasn't aware someone else had started speculating along these lines already!

[Llarimar]

Okay, so I read most of the posts in this thread, and there's something I haven't seen mentioned that is nagging me about the Aimian-Cultivation connection.

Lift has been touched by the Nightwatcher - perhaps by Cultivation herself.  Many people assume that Lift is a part of Cultivaton's plan, just like Taravangian and possibly Dalinar.  And yet, the conversation that Lift has with Arclo at the end of Edgedancer displays a noticeable ignorance on his part as to who she is, what she can do and what her place in the larger scheme is.

Quote

"But you," the thing said, "did not come from a contest, did you?  We watch the others.  The assassin.  The surgeon.  The liar.  The highprince.  But not you.  The others all ignore you... and that, I hazard to predict, is a mistake."

This quote taken in isolation and the general attitude Arclo displays towards Lift make me thinks that the Dysian Aimians are not working for Cultivation.  The reason why is because if the Dysian Aimians are servants of Cultivation, and Lift/Taravangian/Dalinar are also connected to Cultivation (or at least tools of Cultivation, or a part of her larger plan), then it seems like the Dysan Aimians would not have questions about Lift, or would not find her suspicious or unusual.  I don't think that they would ignore her, as Arclo says, but I also don't think they would interrogate her - if both are influenced by Cultivation, it would be like two parts of the same mind questioning each other.  Now, Lift may not be as connected to Cultivation to the Aimians are, but I feel like the way that Arclo treats her during their exchange is notable, and might point towards a hole in theory. 

I think it may be likely that the Aimians are a separate entity, not really related to the gods of Roshar.  I think it still may be possible that the Aimians at least originated from Cultivation, but that they no longer have a direct connection to her.  Perhaps they were created by Cultivation, but now operate as free individuals.  When humans are created by gods (such as on Scadrial), then they believe in those gods and they have a strong presence in their religions (Preservation and Ruin are very prevalent in the religions of Scadrial), but the humans are not the slaves of those gods, and over time they may forget that they really do exist.  Perhaps the same is true with the Aimians - they were created by Cultivation originally, and they still worship her or hold her ideals close to their belief system to some extent, but they are not controlled by Cultivation or connected to her out of some mass hive mentality.  

But overall though, this is an awesome theory @hoiditthroughthegrapevine - definitely one of the most stimulating and thought-provoking ideas I've come across recently.  

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

3 hours ago, Llarimar said:

This quote taken in isolation and the general attitude Arclo displays towards Lift make me thinks that the Dysian Aimians are not working for Cultivation.  The reason why is because if the Dysian Aimians are servants of Cultivation, and Lift/Taravangian/Dalinar are also connected to Cultivation (or at least tools of Cultivation, or a part of her larger plan), then it seems like the Dysan Aimians would not have questions about Lift, or would not find her suspicious or unusual.  I don't think that they would ignore her, as Arclo says, but I also don't think they would interrogate her - if both are influenced by Cultivation, it would be like two parts of the same mind questioning each other.  Now, Lift may not be as connected to Cultivation to the Aimians are, but I feel like the way that Arclo treats her during their exchange is notable, and might point towards a hole in theory.

This is an excellent point, unless Cultivation is actively keeping her tools from mixing (which seems a bit like a paranoid delusion), then possibly the Dysian's aren't Cultivation's master gardeners. I can see the Sleepless as any of the following:

1. Agents of Cultivation (actively gathering information, making small nudges when necessary to affect the outcomes that Cultivation wants for her long term plan)
2. A totally Alien race, acting on their own initiative to affect as of yet unknown goals
3. Agents of a different shard, intent on maintaining surveillance and affecting small changes for some other Shard (possibly even Autonomy).

Honestly, I think all 3 are rad, I just thought it was interesting how different the Siah and Dysian Aimians were, but this theory linking them together and to Cultivation is probably a bit too much of a stretch. They are probably just both Aimians because they both lived on Aimia. Sometimes the simplest answer is the right answer.

All I know is I am looking forward to seeing more of the Sleepless in SA book 4! Would love to see a Sleepless Bondsmith (unless option 3 is true).

[RShara]

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine This WoB came from the BYU signing a few weeks ago.  How do you think it impacts your theory?  It seems to imply that Adonalsium created the parsh, the Aimians and the humans.

Quote

Finallity [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

We've seen a number of human/singer hybrids (Unkalaki and Herdazians) and even human/Aimian hybrids (Natans). How is such a thing possible biologically or is there some outside influence there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

He said that they (humans and parshendi/aimians) can interbreed because they were made by the same person, or rather that they were made with the same intent, that they were made that way on purpose. They don't have a common heritage or anything though.

source

 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

@RShara I saw this WoB, and I think this refers more to the superset of sapient cosmere species. One of the traits that is common to all higher lifeforms (with the possible exception of the Dysian Aimians) is the ability to interbreed. The WoB is paraphrased, but as it's written it seems to be saying that there is, like in object oriented program, a superclass> sapient being, that the sub class derived from this superclass inherits the ability to breed with any member of this superclass.

This seems like a base parameter that was set up by Adonalsium for how the cosmere works, but within this framework I think the shards were able to create according to this template (like the humans on Scadrial) or separate from this template  (I really do think the Dysians are an outlier, whether they were willfully created or are another instance of coalesced investiture acquiring sapience through mere concentration of investiture remains to be seen).

I'm excited to see Brandon's answer to my Aimian question when my personalized books come in.

[Calderis]

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I wouldn't have used half of the words you did, but that essentially the way I see it as well.

I believe the Dysians are an outlier, and then only because their physiology is... Drastically different. Their means of reproduction can't be the same as any other sapient species because their physical reproduction is basically just the growth of new "cells."

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

 @Calderis brevity is the soul of Hoid, err I mean wit. I agree, I don't know if you ever played any of the old school infocom text adventures like planetfall, but my verbosity setting defaults to high. Yours is at the much more readable setting of medium. I am going to come back to this topic with verbosity cranked to 11 after I finish my full mistborn re-read (paying special attention to Sazed's comparative religion monologues).

Edited March 7, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[RShara]

I have no idea what you said, but I'll bet it was cool, so have an upvote

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

54 minutes ago, RShara said:

I have no idea what you said, but I'll bet it was cool, so have an upvote

To set the verbosity filter to medium:

This WoB doesn't necessarily preclude the creation of a new species of life capable of interbreeding with the existent life, it just suggests that there is a pre-defined norm for how this interbrreding is accomplished. The baseline parameters are set, so as long as life created by the shards fulfills these baseline parameters the newly created life can interbreed with existent lifeforms in the cosmere. Actually, I think I can't change my verbosity filter, but I hope this somewhat clarifies the point I am trying to make.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

To set the verbosity filter to medium:

This WoB doesn't necessarily preclude the creation of a new species of life capable of interbreeding with the existent life, it just suggests that there is a pre-defined norm for how this interbrreding is accomplished. The baseline parameters are set, so as long as life created by the shards fulfills these baseline parameters the newly created life can interbreed with existent lifeforms in the cosmere. Actually, I think I can't change my verbosity filter, but I hope this somewhat clarifies the point I am trying to make.

Your verbosity level is locked my friend, and it is set to "indubitably awesome." 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Calderis

[Rainier]

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine@RShara@Calderis

The real crux of this WoB, and the distinction to make, is that even though Aimians and such were created by Adonalsium, after the splintering they would have been affected by the shards just as other life forms have been. Thus, even though the Aimians were created by Adonalsium, they've still been affected by Cultivation (or Honor, or Odium, or make your case). So what @hoiditthroughthegrapevineis saying, to me, is that even though Aimians predate any singular Shard, as they predate the shattering, they've still been susceptible to the influence of the shards, and in this case Cultivation specifically.

3 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

This seems like a base parameter that was set up by Adonalsium for how the cosmere works, but within this framework I think the shards were able to create according to this template (like the humans on Scadrial) or separate from this template  (I really do think the Dysians are an outlier, whether they were willfully created or are another instance of coalesced investiture acquiring sapience through mere concentration of investiture remains to be seen).

Not to be too blunt, but you're talking like a mathematician. That's not quite an insult, but it definitely isn't a compliment. I think I understand you, and I say mathematician our of experience, but one of the greatest gifts is to translate the abstract to the colloquial. It's clear throughout this post. Also, have you read Vernor Vinge? I hope so, as he's a mathematician and explores topics such as distributed or networked intelligence and surveillance, in the context of generally distributed computing.

I'm not sure that the Dysians are an outlier. Until we see otherwise, I'm inclined to attribute every single speck of investiture to one of the 16 shards. Until specifically told otherwise, I don't think Investiture can exist except under their influence or as one of the splinters thereof. So while I agree that they are distinct, and sentient, and embodiments of investiture, I'm not sure you've made the case for them being uniquely distinct from spren, or Returned, or any of the other magic systems we've seen that are wholly dependent on (1 fo 16) Shardic investiture.

[RShara]

37 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

To set the verbosity filter to medium:

This WoB doesn't necessarily preclude the creation of a new species of life capable of interbreeding with the existent life, it just suggests that there is a pre-defined norm for how this interbrreding is accomplished. The baseline parameters are set, so as long as life created by the shards fulfills these baseline parameters the newly created life can interbreed with existent lifeforms in the cosmere. Actually, I think I can't change my verbosity filter, but I hope this somewhat clarifies the point I am trying to make.

This with Rainier's explanation helps.  I think I see what you're getting at now.  I take the WoB to mean that Adonalsiunm created all of 'em though, so I still disagree   We'll find out when you get your books, hopefully

Edited March 7, 2018 by RShara