hoiditthroughthegrapevine

theory
[OB] Aimians are of Cultivation

51 posts in this topic

I could only take a fast Reading of the whole theory (I am going to work) but I noticed some troublesome parts, some are really little while others are Indeed far deeply.

First of all, also if It's possible the Sleepless are made by Cultivation, they happear not as Splinters...but rather as a lowly Life like the Humans or Singers are.

In more troublesome side, Fortune seems to be not connected with our concept of fortune/luck. The evidences we have at the moment, imply It is a undefined future sense. So not actual luck involved and no "negative Fortune".

By the way, the Old Magic as far as we saw doesn't allow to separate boon and curse to two different people. But this is not a real problem as a Shard's actions doesn't need to follow that paradigm.

I also believe you misview Cultivation's mandate, It's not about balance or nature (specifically)... It's about change only.

I Will return in this theory as Soon as I could find the time to re-read It wholly.

If I misread something, feel free to correct me 

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@Yata, all very good points, they are addressed below:

38 minutes ago, Yata said:

First of all, also if It's possible the Sleepless are made by Cultivation, they happear not as Splinters...but rather as a lowly Life like the Humans or Singers are.

I think you are probably right to be wary of jumping to the conclusion that they are splinters of Cultivation, but they are just so different and have such strange properties that if they are not splinters, then I think that they are heavily Invested by Cultivation at least.

The Siah Aimians cast a shadow towards the light (like Jasnah did in the WoR prologue), showing that they probably exist partially in the cognitive realm. They have the ability to change their physiology (getting rid of noses to avoid unpleasant smells, regrowing limbs) except for their blue eyes and blue fingernails. They also have the ability to write notes on their bodies by just thinking what they want to write (like Axies the Collector in his interlude in TWoK). All of these alterations and modifications to their physical form that they affect by just thinking about the change seems to imply that they have access to some sort of energy to effect these transformations. Also Physical matter modified by just thought, seems a lot the Transformation surge (though the object of transformation is just the Siah Aimian itself).

And the Dysian Aimians, where does their consciousness reside? The analogy that their hordelings are like cells in a body doesn't explain where the controlling Nous is. My guess is that this too is the aspect of their being that is a cognitive entity that is linked to all of the constituent cremling "cells" of their body. Brandon RAFO'd the questioner in the WoB above who asked what the Sleepless would look like in the Cognitive Realm. This again is just speculation, but I think the reason this was RAFOed is because like Siah Aimians they too are an organism that maintains a simultaneous presence in the Cognitve and the Physical realms. Their true existence is a rational mind, a cognitive entity connected to a multiplicity of disparate parts. Like a vast computer controlling an army of cockroaches through electrical singles to their antennae, able to upload bytes of data to the small hard drive of their insect minds. This is not a simple form of life, I don't think, and like the Siah Aimians, I think this distributed consciousness takes some form of ineherent energy to maintain.

 

1 hour ago, Yata said:

In more troublesome side, Fortune seems to be not connected with our concept of fortune/luck. The evidences we have at the moment, imply It is a undefined future sense. So not actual luck involved and no "negative Fortune".

I think that Fortune relates to both Luck and Future sight. There is the Feruchemical use of Chromium to consider (quoted from Coppermind):

Quote

A chromium Ferring is known as a Spinner. Chromium is used to store fortune. A Feruchemist filling a chromiummind will be unlucky, and can tap it to increase his luck.

From the above, it is stated that Luck in the Positive and Negative can be affected by Fortune. More access to Fortune = Better Luck, less access to Fortune = Bad luck. How Hoid uses Fortune and how I believe the Dysian Aimians use Fortune (for surveillance) is by Fortuitously arriving at a place when something is going to happen without knowing precisely what is going to happen. They are using a slight mixture of pre-cognition and positive luck, and I think this ability of Hoid's shows that Fortune is a composite of those 2 elements (if Fortune was just future sight, he would know what was going to happen).

1 hour ago, Yata said:

By the way, the Old Magic as far as we saw doesn't allow to separate boon and curse to two different people. But this is not a real problem as a Shard's actions doesn't need to follow that paradigm.

I also believe you misview Cultivation's mandate, It's not about balance or nature (specifically)... It's about change only.

I think that the idea of a given system needing to be neutral and balanced is implied by the paradigm of the Boon/Curse, and it seems to be one of the only real elements of the Old Magic that we have seen. Further, I think in the case of the boon/curse granted to an individual, the individual is the system and the Positive Boon is balanced by the Negative Curse.

So it is totally a surmise to assume that this need for a balanced system is a pre-condition of Cultivation's shardic Intent, but given that the Old Magic was designed to be intentionally opaque (as shown in the WoB in OP), I think the best we can do for now is make reasoned surmises.

I do see your point about Cultivation's primary intent being change (which I agree with), and that's really probably the point of syntax between Ruin and Cultivation's shardic Intents that the WoB in OP is referring to. But I still think that her Intent is constrained by a balance between positive and negative action, and that the creation of the two races of Aimians was her way around the stricture of balance in her intent. She was able to create two seperate tools (both races of Aimians), that within the overall system (the total population of Aimia), balance each other out.

 

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Sorry I'm late to the party! I'm totally slacking off here ;)

Anyway

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/160-words-of-radiance-dayton-signing/#e2881

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basic stuff about the 2 types of Aimians, both of which have extended control of their own biology, both of which more or less refugees. He also said that they have cosmere significance.

Sadly, the above quote is paraphrased.  But refugees definitely stand out.  If they're refugees, then they are not likely created by Cultivation.

Additionally, we see the PoV (and passing glimpses) of Axies the Collector, who is a Siah Aimian. He doesn't really seem very tool-like to me :)

Edited by RShara
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@RShara strikes again!

Battleship.jpg.87c30e08b9ff8a8e480442e55146bf63.jpg

That is a paraphrased WoB though, and it does say More or Less refugees, which begs the question, is this because they are from a different planet or because their homeland was destroyed during the scouring of Aimia? I choose to believe the later...Mostly because I like the idea of the Sleepless being the eyes and ears of Cultivation, and being able to strategically influence things in small seemingly imperceptible ways. I think that my battleship actually is only half sunken at this point, which means, looking at the bright side, it's half floating, right?

24 minutes ago, RShara said:

Additionally, we see the PoV (and passing glimpses) of Axies the Collector, who is a Siah Aimian. He doesn't really seem very tool-like to me :)

Well, he's not a tool you would want on your side of the war. But you slip him in behind enemy lines, and if he doesn't get imprisoned for public nudity, he might just offset their good luck and bring down a curse or two on the enemy troops.

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
typo, like usual
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Haha sorry.  I have no other definitive proof, so you might be right. But I don’t agree ;)

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@hoiditthroughthegrapevine while I don't really, I have my own ideas, at lease about the Dysians, that makes me believe they are native to Roshar.

The refugee bit has always seemed to me to be a reference to their status after the scouring. 

As far as the Siah... I got nothing man. The Siah are just weird. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

As far as the Siah... I got nothing man. The Siah are just weird. 

I think @RShara summed it nicely by saying that Axies is:

1 hour ago, RShara said:

very tool-like

Slightly taken out of context, but I think the spirit of the thing is right.

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Hey. I said NOT very tool-like!

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I was referring to the colloquial term "tool"

Quote

One who lacks the mental capacity to know he is being used. A fool. A cretin. Characterized by low intelligence and/or self-steem.

Basically a *doof*, a walking liability to all around him

Though he does have a very cool mission in life, there are worse things you could do with your immortality than chase Intoxication spren.

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
OOPS, trying to make this post not be reported for *attempting to skirt the rules*
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I still can't read it fully (weird day at work) but I checked the reply.
I remember a WoB (maybe you provided already) about the Sleepless's Hordeling be a lot cremling-like for an explicit Sleepless's design. They grow them in that way to fit the local fauna. Of course this is not a proof, but point (to me) at a foreign origin. We also know the Sleepless will have a great role in Mistborn Era 4... But this is not a real proof of anything

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21 minutes ago, Yata said:

I remember a WoB (maybe you provided already) about the Sleepless's Hordeling be a lot cremling-like for an explicit Sleepless's design. They grow them in that way to fit the local fauna. Of course this is not a proof, but point (to me) at a foreign origin. We also know the Sleepless will have a great role in Mistborn Era 4... But this is not a real proof of anything

I don't think I referenced that WoB (would like to see it though). If it does mention local fauna it would give a lot of credence to @RShara's point that the Sleepless are from a different planet. (Though if it's another paraphrased WoB I would have to take it with the proverbial grain of salt.)

As to the Sleepless playing a role in Mistborn Era 4, I don't think this affects the theory at all, except that I have to say, that is Awesome, because the Dysian Aimians are one of the most amazing alien races ever created. The talks that Arclo has with Lift in Edgedancer where he is trying to build his Grand Philosophy by asking Lift what part of the body she is most like is one of the best bits in all of Literature (note how this not bounded by the qualifier in all of Epic Fantasy). At a meta level, I think the Dysian Aimian's raise a lot of philosophical questions that Brandon is very interested in precisely because they deal, in a metaphorical way, with one of the biggest and most interesting questions of Philosophy, namely what is Identity.

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Here it is. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3346

Quote

Questioner

Are all Hordelings Cremlings and vise versa?

Brandon Sanderson

Cremling is a synonym in Roshar for both, insect and small crustation, right? And so you would see one and you would see that's a little crayfish. Cremling is not an exact term if that makes sense. It's like bug. The word "bug" people can use to mean a lot of different things.[...] So, yes, they look like Cremlings, because they've been bred to look like Cremlings, so they will not be noticed on Roshar, but there are Hordelings that do not look like Cremlings. But they would still be called a Cremling by the people on Roshar. The occasional people (?) used the word insect, 'cause that word does exist on Roshar. Usually make refers to like little flying bugs that you only find in the very far west of Roshar near the mountains, but yeah.

 

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30 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Here it is. 

Thanks @Calderis, seems like a description of the ambiguity of referring to a stink bug and a beetle both as a bug. I think that this definitely has no implication for where the Dysian Aimians are originally from, in fact because it is such a mundane explanation, I think it lends credence to the speculation that they are native to Roshar (and possible a creation of Cultivation).

As an aside, did you see that Krull meme that I made for Mr. T's role in Oathbringer? Maybe Krull is before your time, but this is the visual image I had in my head ever since the initial OB chapter where Mr. T becomes the fist member of the coalition.

*EDIT* Just read that WoB again, and I see what you're getting at there.The fact that they have been bred to look like cremlings implies that is not their natural form. Further the fact that most original non-derivative manifestation is found in the West by the mountains seems significant. Maybe the refugee WoB refers to the fact that the Sleeplesss are also displaced refuges from the flight from Ashyn (but I don't really buy this).

I see your point but don't really think that this is proof of anything other than the Sleepless' adaptability.The adaptation of the cremlings might be because their original composite organisms were from the valley of Shinovar, and they needed a form that would be unobtrusive on the rest of Roshar to fulfill their primary objective of carrying out surveillance.

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
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Fortune I feel works a lot like the luck potion from Harry Potter 6.

Harry just has this weird sense of where to go and where he should be when.

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@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I did see the meme, and it's funny. I barely remember that movie, but it feels about right. 

And yeah, that WoB raises some doubts, but doesn't completely kill the idea that they're native. 

If you're interested, in searching for another of my older threads, I stumbled upon the one that I speculated about the origins of the Sleepless. 

 

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This is a fun idea! I don't buy into it personally, but you obviously put a lot of work into it and most your arguments are well reasoned and supported.

I think  the argument of whether the Amians are from Roshar, or not, is a moot point to the majority of your theory. the only thing it affects is if Cultivation created them or not. Correct me if I am wrong, but they wouldn't need to be created by Cultivation, for her to invest them to the level of slivers would they?

 

18 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I long for the days before the Last Desolation.
The age before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us.
A time where there was still magic in the world and honor in the hearts of men.
The world became ours, and we lost it.
Nothing, it appears, is more challenging to the souls of men than victory itself.
Or was that victory an illusion all along?
Did our enemies realize that the harder they fought, the stronger we resisted?
Perhaps they saw that the heat and the hammer made for a better grade of sword.
But ignore the steel for long enough, and it begins to rust away.
There are four whom we watch.

The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing, to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time.
The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills.
The third is the liar, a young women who wears a scholars mantle over the heart of a thief.
The last is a highprince, a warlord whose eyes have been opened to the past and whose thirst for battle wanes.

The world can change.

Surgebinding and Shardweilding can return; the magic of the ancient days can become ours again.

These four people are key.
One of them may redeem us,
And one of them will destroy us."

The Bolded section is what makes me question this theory. Why would the loss of Honor, Heralds, and KR cause the Aimians to lose their magic, if that magic is coming from Cultivation.

On a side note, when reading that I wondered if this implies that the Amians had access to the Surges and shards without the Nahel Bond?

I could be reading too much into this one line, but it does seem important to me.

Also, I think your weakest argument is the good\bad luck argument, you really only have one supporting statement that Siah Aimians are bad luck. The source on that one seems very unreliable, and I think it may just be superstition because people are scared of them. But, you could be right, hard to say with so little evidence.

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16 minutes ago, Messremb said:

I think  the argument of whether the Amians are from Roshar, or not, is a moot point to the majority of your theory. the only thing it affects is if Cultivation created them or not. Correct me if I am wrong, but they wouldn't need to be created by Cultivation, for her to invest them to the level of slivers would they?

They could have existed prior to Cultivation and have been heavily invested by her for sure, but the reason I think Cultivation actually created them is because of the Boon/Curse Paradigm of the old magic. I think the Aimians show a similar inverted symmetry, but I could be completely wrong about this as well. I do like the idea that the Sleepless have access to Positive Fortune like Hoid does, so that they can know when and where to send their cremling spies. I just think that would be rad, and I like the idea that they are Cultivation's boots on the ground, making lots of small correcting adjustments as her plans unfold.

14 minutes ago, Messremb said:
18 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Surgebinding and Shardweilding can return; the magic of the ancient days can become ours again.

These four people are key.
One of them may redeem us,
And one of them will destroy us."

The Bolded section is what makes me question this theory. Why would the loss of Honor, Heralds, and KR cause the Aimians to lose their magic, if that magic is coming from Cultivation.

I believe this is because the higher level spren capable of forming Nahel bonds are once again deciding to bond Radiants, there could be more to this, but this seems like the most logical explanation to me.

8 minutes ago, Messremb said:

Also, I think your weakest argument is the good\bad luck argument, you really only have one supporting statement that Siah Aimians are bad luck. The source on that one seems very unreliable, and I think it may just be superstition because people are scared of them. But, you could be right, hard to say with so little evidence.

Here's are some bits from TWoK Axies Interlude:

Quote

Poor fool, Axies thought. It was really time to be moving on. Wouldn't want to bring any bad luck down upon the poor addled fellow.

And this very intriguing bit (specifically the bolded bit):

Quote

Perhaps someone inportant would take exception to him and have him brought before a magistrate. Wouldn't be the first time. He'd learned long ago not to worry. When the Curse of Kind followed you, you learned to take what happened as it happened.

From the only authoritative source we have on Siah Aimians, Axies himself professes the nature of his "Curse of the Kind", that he causes people around him to experience bad luck, and usually ends up in unpleasant situations because everyone on Roshar knows that the Siah Aimians are total bummers.

I think this is the only mention of the Curse of the Kind, but if anyone with searchable kindle editions wants to look for quotes with "Curse of the Kind" in them that would be beyond amazing.

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Personally I wonder if the Aimians pre-date Cultivation's arrival on the planet.  Native life on Roshar tends to be weird, adaptable to environmental demands, bug/carapace based, and have higher levels of interaction with spren and affinity for the cognitive realm.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Siah Aimians at the very least weren't a smaller native humanoid species that co-existed on Roshar alongside the Singers before Honor/Cultivation and later humans migrated to the planet.

The Dysian Aimians are so freaky though one imagines they have to be an artificially created magic entity (like Scadrial's kandra/inquisitors/koloss).  I could definitely buy into the theory that Cultivation created them as her intended spymasters.

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56 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Personally I wonder if the Aimians pre-date Cultivation's arrival on the planet.  Native life on Roshar tends to be weird, adaptable to environmental demands, bug/carapace based, and have higher levels of interaction with spren and affinity for the cognitive realm.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Siah Aimians at the very least weren't a smaller native humanoid species that co-existed on Roshar alongside the Singers before Honor/Cultivation and later humans migrated to the planet.

You could be right about the Siah being a native Rosharan form of life, their increased presence in the cognitive Realm, their orange blood and their transformational magic does parallel the Singers, but the WoBs are a little vague in this respect (and Brandon seems a bit cagey about pinning down if the Aimians predate the humans on Roshar, didn't cite any of thes WoBs but they're on Arcanum).

Here are some interesting WoBs about the Siah Aimians:

Spoiler

The 2 Races of Aimians are not related WoB:

Spoiler

Ecuadorable

I asked for a clue about Rysn or Axies, and I got this!

Brandon Sanderson

Axies is one of two races from Aimia, but they are not related.

The Aimians are not related to the Parshenid WoB:

Spoiler

Ayende87 (paraphrased)

I asked if the Aimians as a race were, as I suspected, closer to the Cognitive Realm, and whether they are somehow related to the Parshendi.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Brandon started by saying there are 2 sub races of Aimians for a start, and Axies the Collector is of 1 set, we have yet to meet the other but we will!

He did say there is 'Something' going on with the Aimians and their interaction with the Cognitive Realm but wouldn't elaborate on that point.

He then went on to say that Aimians are not in fact related to Parshendi at all, but the Horneaters and Herdazians are!

The Natan and/or Barbathanam are related to the Siah Aimians WoB:

Spoiler

Chris Hansen

Are either the blue-skinned Natans or blue-veined Babatharnams human-Aimian hybrids?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

The Aimians could be referred to as the Watchers WoB:

Spoiler

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

If the Parshendi are listeners, would it be proper to call the Aimians watchers?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are those who would call them that, but because that is used in the Marvel world so extensively, I would not use it, probably.

Hmm, what are they watching or guarding rather...

So from these WoBs we know that the two races of Aimians are not related and that the Parshendi and Aimians are not related, but that the Natan and/or Barbathanam races are related to Siah Aimians (possible reason for the moon story in OB). These WoBs I think show what Brandon means by related, which just means sharing a common ancestor, or that they are related from divergent evolution. Obviously with the incredibly different manifestations of the Siah and Dysian Aimians they are not very likely to be related in this sense. This doesn't preclude a creation based relationship, which is the relationship that I think they posses, but like @Subvisual Haze pointed out, the Siah do share a lot of common traits with the Singers which could show that they are native lifeforms of Roshar.

I think the WoB about the Aimians being akin to the Watchers is incredibly interesting though, and I think that it is further proof that one of the tasks they have been given is protecting the Dawnshards. The whole "ends of worlds" bit from the Kaza interlude just seems too ominous for them to be protecting just a collection of perfect gems capable of trapping the Unmade.

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The "curse of the kind" is believed by many to be' a cultural stuff. They are different and people made them bad things for that.

By the way, as your point is mainly Old-Magic centered. We don't even know if the Old Magic originated with Cultivation or if She Simply "adopted" the NW when H&C arrived on Roshar.

 

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18 minutes ago, Yata said:

The "curse of the kind" is believed by many to be' a cultural stuff. They are different and people made them bad things for that.

By the way, as your point is mainly Old-Magic centered. We don't even know if the Old Magic originated with Cultivation or if She Simply "adopted" the NW when H&C arrived on Roshar.

From the Axies the collector Interlude, the Curse of Kind is used in a way that seems to be a descriptor of how Siah Aimians leave a train of bad luck in their wake, but if this is referred to somewhere else in the SLA that implies something different I would love to know!

From this WoB we see that all post shattering investiture was assigned to different shards:

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Is all Investiture in the Cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation of every world in the Cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

So the fact that she was able to adopt the Nightwatcher implies that Cultivation's shardic Intent is inline with the Old Magic. I do see your point that the "Old" in Old magic implies that it predates H+C arrival to Roshar, which I can totally buy. But I think that if this is the case, then like the Nightwatcher Cultivation would have adopted the other elements of the Old Magic that were inline with her Intent as well. So even if the Aimians existed pre-shattering, when Cultivation arrived on Roshar their pre-shattering Investiture (which I still think is inline with balance of the Old Magic) would be under her influence.

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
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43 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

You could be right about the Siah being a native Rosharan form of life, their increased presence in the cognitive Realm, their orange blood and their transformational magic does parallel the Singers, but the WoBs are a little vague in this respect (and Brandon seems a bit cagey about pinning down if the Aimians predate the humans on Roshar, didn't cite any of thes WoBs but they're on Arcanum).

Oh do we have a thing on Siah blood being orange?  I had been guessing purple/violet blood for either or both types of Aimians.  Way back in the very first prologue POV from Kelek he comments on the battlefield being covered with red, orange, and violet blood.  Red would obviously be human, orange is singer, and I was guessing purple must be Aimian by process of elimination.  Purple blood might also explain the Siah's blue-ish skin tone.

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@Subvisual Haze there's this WoB that states that the Aimians have different colors of blood:

Spoiler

Havoc (paraphrased)

What color is Aimian blood?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Good question! The question is, which type of Aimian? That would be my first response. The two different varieties have two different colors of blood.

So I was assuming that the Dysian Aimian's cremlings had violet blood because chasmfiends and great shells have violet blood (like this is the standard color of blood of the crustacean-like life on Roshar), but the blue skin color and the blue veined Barbartham would make more sense if these races had violet blood.

@Calderis on his The Sleepless. A natural creation of Roshar's magic says this about the Siah Aimians:

On 9/1/2017 at 3:48 PM, Calderis said:

I don't know have a theory for their creation/evolution. I do think that they are native to Roshar. Their orange blood means they are most likely related to the Parshendi. 

Based on my limited time on the Shard, I tend to read things Calderis says as canon.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Based on my limited time on the Shard, I tend to read things Calderis says as canon.

Don't. 

My reasoning was pretty much the same as yours. Cremlings with purple blood like the other crustaceans we've seen, and orange blood is only seen in Parshendi to my knowledge, who also have a (much more limited) ability to change physical shape like the Siah. 

I make plenty of mistakes and assumptions. 

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