[OB] Cracked Theory: Wit in the Epilogue

[Calderis]

I strongly doubt that Wit placed the flawed gems in Elhokars plate. 

Hoid is incapable of causing physical harm to people. Even the thought of causing a person harm causes him to be nauseated to the point he is incapacitated. 

That even applies to himself, which is why he had to get someone else to hit him to knock his tooth out. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/129/#e2010

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A Budgie (paraphrased)

So, Hoid can't physically hurt someone, but does this ban extend to mental harm and harm through inaction?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Hoid can mentally hurt someone, or allow them to be hurt, but when considering physical trauma he gets nauseous, to the point he can be incapacitated

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176/#e8498

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Matrim [PENDING REVIEW]

Hoid gets his tooth knocked out while in Kholinar. He prompts somebody else to help him with that. Is that because he has issues hurting not only other people but himself?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yep.

Matrim [PENDING REVIEW]

And then he considers healing that at a later point in time. Which magic system does he consider using to heal that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

A magic system that predates <yol>-- predates any of the others.

There's no way he's intentionally caused situations that would result in someone's death. He can manipulate them all he wants, but even thinking about hurting them will incapacitate him. 

[Rupert]

7 hours ago, Weltall said:

 and his healing power makes Miles Hundredlives look like a wimp so stormlight healing isn't useful to him either.

how do we know he can heal well (can't remember him doing it any of the books)

[Weltall]

The epilogue has him explicitly point out that he's suppressing his healing in order for the various tricks he's using to disguise his appearance (hair falling out, missing tooth) to work and in the epilogue of the previous book, his reaction to Jasnah brandishing a Shardblade at him was 'that little thing's not going to hurt me'. We also have many WoBs that Hoid is ridiculously hard to kill.

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QUESTION

Finally, and most importantly, if all your protagonists had an epic all out brawl, who would win?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Some of them are immortal, but that would kind of be cheating. If you let people who are immortal participate, it's going to very much favor someone like Hoid, who is really, really, really hard to kill. Of course, he would not be very good at offing anyone either, because of certain things in his past. It would be really futile when it got down to the last two. But if we take that out...

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Pinpoint

If Hoid got beheaded, would his body grow a new head?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Pinpoint

What if Hoid got cut by a shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

The Shardblade cuts the soul and what Hoid does heals the soul.

 

[Blazenella]

6 hours ago, Bort said:

This is true. I had forgotten that. 

Secret History/Mistborn Spoils...

Spoiler

KELSIER YOU SUNNUVA GUN

 

[TequilaJack]

14 hours ago, Xaklys said:

"I know you'd rather someone else," Wit said, "but it isn't time to be picky.  I'm certain now that the reason I'm in the city is to find you."
"It's either go with me now," Wit said to the wall, "or wait it out and get captured.  I honestly don't even know if you've the mind to listen.  But if you do, know this: I will give you truths.  And I know some juicy ones."
"Life before Death, little one."
- taken from the last page of Oathbringer.

He may not have known when he got to Kholinar that he needed to get the Cryptic, but he said he would give it truths which is all that the Order of Lightweavers need for their bond.  That way he doesn't have to be bound by specific mantras and Oaths like the other Orders do, all he has to do is say true things to the Cryptic.  It is, in fact, the perfect Order for Hoid.

Hoid also didn't know about the mission to Kholinar from the Knights Radiant so he didn't know Elhokar was there so I think my theory is still safe.

I still don't think Hoid is restricted to a Rosharan Order. He was pre shards with Adolonisium so would be expected to be beyond all that. He does emotional allomancy, his discussions with Jasnah at end of book 1 may indicate he's familiar with elsecalling too. 

And I forget earlier books, did Shallan ever utter the first ideal? I recall Kaladin doing it, but never Shallan. 

He's just protecting the screen is my take. 

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

I still don't think Hoid is restricted to a Rosharan Order. He was pre shards with Adolonisium so would be expected to be beyond all that. He does emotional allomancy, his discussions with Jasnah at end of book 1 may indicate he's familiar with elsecalling too. 

It's nothing to do with being restricted. It's about the Spren. Being a Surgebinder is all about the Spren choosing someone, and they are attracted to certain type of people.

Hoid is subject to the same rules as anyone else as far as they're concerned. 

[Draigon]

3 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

And I forget earlier books, did Shallan ever utter the first ideal? I recall Kaladin doing it, but never Shallan. 

 

The exact history of anything related to Shallan before she killed her mother is still unrevealed.

[1stBondsmith]

What I think you are all forgetting here, is that you assume Hoid want's to be Lightweaver, but have not discussed the possibilities of the personality of THIS SPECIFIC Cryptic. What does he know, and what information is he guarding? Does he know the location of the other hidden perfect stones, the Dawnshards, or other items hidden in Roshar's CR? The benefit to Hoid of being a Knight Radiant is small compared to information he may need. Just a thought I had when reading the epilogue.

[ghajan monk]

Hoid can't kill anyone, but could he put someone in a hazardous situation if his intention was to aid them, such as making Elhokar more attractive to cryptics? Wether or not Hoid planted the gemstones I do like the idea that he is guiding potential lightweavers, though I do not think his intention was to steal a cryptic from some dead lightweaver. Remember as the Nahel bond progresses the Knight Radiant will gain squires and this will attract more spren. Hoid could have been planning to become a squire and gain the attention of the cryptics the boring traditional way.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, ghajan monk said:

Hoid can't kill anyone, but could he put someone in a hazardous situation if his intention was to aid them, such as making Elhokar more attractive to cryptics?

The simple idea will nauseate him to the degree of stop him. It's irrelevant the long shoot

[ghajan monk]

36 minutes ago, Yata said:

The simple idea will nauseate him to the degree of stop him. It's irrelevant the long shoot

Thank you. I had read Secret History and saw that hoid can punch a cognitive shadow so I was wondering if there was a second loophole. 

On a darker note, does this mean Hoid cannot insult someone suicidal, for instance Kaladin in Way of Kings?

Edited January 6, 2018 by ghajan monk

[TheWarriorPoet]

There maybe something about HOID obtaining Investiture of all the shards, since he had some of Shaod, he is also a mistborn or atleast have the ability to be one, he have Breaths from warbreaker too. But why exactly would he be trying to hide himself as Lightweaver? Since he is practically the forefather of this magic? He don't even need stormlight to create illusions as was shown in Liar of partinal?

And then if it is just about studying the investiture of Honor, i think he had this opportunity long ago, since heralds know him, it is safe to assume he influenced them in some form thousands of years ago, when the vessel on honor still lived, i think it is safe to assume that he knows the process of investiture as much as vessels do.

Someone commented that we should think or speculate about HOID on a bigger scale then just a small world of stormlight, i agree. HOID is not someone to bother himself with things like desolations, he will let humans kill voidbringers or vice versa, he is out there to take on Shards in battle so whatever his objectives for obtaining that cryptic, they are much bigger then just Stormlight.

And in Secret History, he is shown fighting Kelsier, so i think it is forbidden for him to fight only in Physical realm but not in cognitive realm

 

Sorry if all this have been discussed somewhere earlier, it is not possible to keep track of every thread on this forum

[digitalbusker]

9 hours ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

And in Secret History, he is shown fighting Kelsier, so i think it is forbidden for him to fight only in Physical realm but not in cognitive realm

Hoid himself seems to think it's less about where he's fighting than whom he's fighting:

"That was unpleasant," Drifter said, "yet somehow still satisfying. Apparently you already being dead means I can hurt you."

Presumably another living worldhopper in Shadesmar would be safe from Hoid.

[thesmellypickle]

On 1/4/2018 at 6:58 PM, Bort said:

Now there's a question for Brandon. Something that was never answered in the books:

Did Hoid plant the faulty gemstones in Elhokar's Shardplate during that first chasmfiend battle?

Interesting idea. Hadn’t thought of that.

[TequilaJack]

21 hours ago, Calderis said:

It's nothing to do with being restricted. It's about the Spren. Being a Surgebinder is all about the Spren choosing someone, and they are attracted to certain type of people.

Hoid is subject to the same rules as anyone else as far as they're concerned. 

Hoid does not fit the same rules as other spren-bound because....

1) He does not use stormlight to weave. Shallan could not find the source during his storytelling. 

2) There is an Ars Arcanum quote that Hoid felt that the Roshan lightweaving is similar to but not exactly the same as the original Yolen version. The Yolen version is not spren bound, so the Rosharan lightweaving is probably a diluted and limited version of Hoid's Yolen version.

3) Lightweaving is just one of many things Hoid is capable of. For example, he is a worldhopper, Feruchemist too..which are not usually associated with Sprens and so not bound by same rules. 

[Weltall]

14 hours ago, ghajan monk said:

Thank you. I had read Secret History and saw that hoid can punch a cognitive shadow so I was wondering if there was a second loophole. 

On a darker note, does this mean Hoid cannot insult someone suicidal, for instance Kaladin in Way of Kings?

Causing mental harm and harm through inaction are apparently possible, but even thinking about causing physical trauma would make Hoid feel sick. So yes, Hoid could probably drive someone to suicide if he wanted to. I wonder whether using Lightweaving on someone to manipulate their mental state (or emotional allomancy) would qualify as close enough to physical action to trigger whatever's binding him.

13 hours ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

But why exactly would he be trying to hide himself as Lightweaver? Since he is practically the forefather of this magic? He don't even need stormlight to create illusions as was shown in Liar of partinal?

Someone asked Brandon and was told that Hoid will get some sort of compounding effect to his Lightweaving. That said, whether he really needs it is questionable and as I already noted, a Shardblade is pretty much useless to him. It's possible that he wants access to Soulcasting for some reason and bonding a Cryptic would be a lot easier than bonding an inkspren. And even if he has no interest in the powers per se and just wants a Nahel bond for some reason we can't currently fathom, the Cryptics with their truths instead of specific Ideals make the best choice for someone who doesn't want to be restricted by the bond in any great way.

3 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

2) There is an Ars Arcanum quote that Hoid felt that the Roshan lightweaving is similar to but not exactly the same as the original Yolen version. The Yolen version is not spren bound, so the Rosharan lightweaving is probably a diluted and limited version of Hoid's Yolen version.

Minor nitpick, Khriss is the one who comments that Rosharan Lightweaving is close to the original Yolish version, not Hoid. She's the person who writes the things.

As for the comment about Hoid being subject to rules, the point is that he can't just bond a random Spren because he feels like it, no matter what powers he already has. He still needs to attract a spren and convince it that he's worth forming a Nahel bond with. Brandon has mentioned that Surgebinding is a magic system that you can't cheat your way into.

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Brandon Sanderson

Nyeaaahhh... The spren still has to choose. If you want to be a Surgebinder, the choice is being made. You can't fake your way into it. Decision and Honor are too much a part of Surgebinding for you to be able to fake your way into that. Other magics you might be able to do that. Other magics that don't require, like, Surgebinding works because a piece of Honor or Cultivation or a mix has chosen you specifically. There is will from the actual Investiture involved in it in Roshar.

Djarskublar

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

So it's not something you can cheat your way into, right. But cheating your way into Breath might be easier, right.

 

[Isilel]

22 minutes ago, Weltall said:

a Shardblade is pretty much useless to him.

How can a shardbalde possibly be useless when it allows you to get in and out of all places not made of aluminium and lets you open all and any containers ditto? Not to mention that it's use as a tool is only limited by one's imagination. I have already wondered if perfect gemstones were produced by artisan-Radiants with the aid of shard gem-cutters. And it wouldn't surprise me if Hoid rocks a shard-flute when occasion demands it, from now on. Etc.

And also, Hoid must be terribly lonely and a Cryptic could be a confidant and a companion to him, one who'd never leave or get old and die.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Isilel

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

1) He does not use stormlight to weave. Shallan could not find the source during his storytelling. 

That's because he already has access to a similar but different pre-shattering magic system. 

3 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

2) There is an Ars Arcanum quote that Hoid felt that the Roshan lightweaving is similar to but not exactly the same as the original Yolen version. The Yolen version is not spren bound, so the Rosharan lightweaving is probably a diluted and limited version of Hoid's Yolen version.

Everything Weltall said. 

3 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

3) Lightweaving is just one of many things Hoid is capable of. For example, he is a worldhopper, Feruchemist too..which are not usually associated with Sprens and so not bound by same rules. 

Worldhopping requires no powers whatsoever, and he is not a feruchemist (save the use of unsealed medallions). We have old paraphrased WoBs that said he used Feruchemy, and newer ones saying he uses the same underlying principle (Fortune).

And none of this has any bearing on how to draw a spren. Hoid is subject to the same rules, as the WoB that Weltall shared shows. The bond is the Sprens choice, if he doesn't fit what they want, he doesn't get a bond. 

[Gnmish]

On 1/5/2018 at 8:46 AM, Bort said:

On one hand, I agree with you. On the other, we already have one Spren saying they don't like Hoid because he gives off an odd feeling (I forget Syl's actual words, but it's in WoK, in the Wandersail chapter).

Also (Mistborn era 1 spoiler),

 

  Hide contents

 

Vin gets an odd feeling from him too,

 

so we know that he has an unusual presence, shall we say.

I can't really decide about the OP's theory though. I could see it either way.

 

Vin's aversion to Hoid is dealt with in Secret Histories (no spoilers, in case you haven't read it) and it doesn't have anything to do with how spren would perceive him. 

I would say Syl doesn't like Hoid for the same reason that she doesn't like cryptics, in fact Pattern actually states to Shallan that Hoid "Smells like us"

[Weltall]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

How can a shardbalde possibly be useless when it allows you to get in and out of all places not made of aluminium and lets you open all and any containers ditto? Not to mention that it's use as a tool is only limited by one's imagination.

Good point, although given that Hoid has an unknown but apparently extensive array of powers and called Jasnah's living blade a 'little knife' I'm not sure there's much he could do with a Shardblade no matter how creatively applied that he can't do with some other magic system he's got up his sleeves. Offhand, I can think of a few systems we know he has at least some access to which could open locks and/or make awesome tools, even if they can't do it all with one application.

[Xaklys]

On 1/5/2018 at 5:39 AM, Calderis said:

I strongly doubt that Wit placed the flawed gems in Elhokars plate. 

Hoid is incapable of causing physical harm to people. Even the thought of causing a person harm causes him to be nauseated to the point he is incapacitated. 

There's no way he's intentionally caused situations that would result in someone's death. He can manipulate them all he wants, but even thinking about hurting them will incapacitate him. 

That's fair.  I can acknowledge that one about Hoid.  He still seemed to show some interest in the Lightweavers at least.  Everything may not have been necessarily planned on his part, maybe he was setting up the possible opportunity.

[TequilaJack]

6 hours ago, Weltall said:

the point is that he can't just bond a random Spren because he feels like it, no matter what powers he already has. He still needs to attract a spren and convince it that he's worth forming a Nahel bond with. Brandon has mentioned that Surgebinding is a magic system that you can't cheat your way into.

 

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

Hoid is subject to the same rules, as the WoB that Weltall shared shows. The bond is the Sprens choice, if he doesn't fit what they want, he doesn't get a bond. 

With Kaladin, Dalinar, Lift etc it was the spren that chose them. They didn't have a choice on the order.

For Hoid, he was the one who went after the spren in the end. He knew it was there, knew he was there to set it free, knew it was a lightweaver spren (comment on truths) and went banging the wall to set it free. And, why would Hoid want to seek and bond a spren in first place, when he can already lightweave without it? I don't believe Hoid really needed a spren or a nahel bond. He was just saving the spren from death...for a reason maybe the next book will tell. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by TequilaJack

[Xaklys]

2 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

And, why would Hoid want to seek and bond a spren in first place, when he can already lightweave without it? I don't believe Hoid really needed a spren or a nahel bond. He was just saving the spren from death...for a reason maybe the next book will tell. 

Hoid is going around the Cosmere collecting Investiture.  He already has multiple magic system from various planets and Shards' Investitures, so why would Roshar's magic be any different.  He even used Awakening in the epilogue and that is DEFINITELY not a Rosharan magic system.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

 

With Kaladin, Dalinar, Lift etc it was the spren that chose them. They didn't have a choice on the order.

For Hoid, he was the one who went after the spren in the end. He knew it was there, knew he was there to set it free, knew it was a lightweaver spren (comment on truths) and went banging the wall to set it free. And, why would Hoid want to seek and bond a spren in first place, when he can already lightweave without it? I don't believe Hoid really needed a spren or a nahel bond. He was just saving the spren from death...for a reason maybe the next book will tell. 

And the Spren could still have rejected him. 

Hoid seems to be collecting various investiture types, and so what if he could already lightweave. Now he can soulcast. And for someone with Allomancy, the ability to create metal is pretty freaking amazing. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Calderis

[TequilaJack]

2 minutes ago, Xaklys said:

Hoid is going around the Cosmere collecting Investiture. 

 

Just now, Calderis said:

Hoid seems to be collecting various investiture types

Thanks. This makes sense. Is there any reference to this in any of the books? I need to read those again.