Xaklys

[OB] Cracked Theory: Wit in the Epilogue

66 posts in this topic

Okay so I presented this idea to our facebook group and actually got a decent bit of pushback on it so I wanted to see what the Shard thought of it.

Also, this thread will likely get pretty Cosmere spoiler-y so if you haven't read much other than Stormlight, you may get spoiled so tread at your own pace (Ironic as I haven't read Mistborn Era 2 yet)

So, Wit totally bonded that Cryptic that Elhokar left, right?  Okay, so now that we cleared that up: we know Hoid has the ability to just happen to be in the right place at the right time, but I had the inkling suspicion that Hoid was very interested in the abilities of Lightweavers (considering he already has a Yolish form of the magic) and that he might have been helping sort of "groom" proto-Lightweavers for a while now on Roshar so that he could get his hands on the magic system (something he has been doing throughout the Cosmere).

So hear me out, Hoid was aware of Shallan's speaking of the Immortal Words/First Ideal when he confronted her during her flashback sequence and even used emotional Allomancy on her during the confrontation.  He also served as King's Wit for Elhokar, whom was also a proto-Lightweaver.  While Hoid has had a hand in the lives of the other MC Radiants, it seems as though he was more focused on the ones that were on the brink of becoming Lightweavers.  I'm thinking that Hoid might have been grooming these Lightweavers so that when one of them eventually got killed (like a super young girl and a son of an assassinated king), he would pick up the spren.  The Order is perfect for Hoid, he even says that he has many truths that he can tell the Cryptic.  He has made it very clear when he spoke to Dalinar in WoR (I think) that he will watch Roshar burn if that's what it takes to get what he wants.  He may not necessarily want that to happen because seems pretty apparent from his letters in each books' Part Two epigraphs that he wants to stop Odium and is begging for help from outside forces.  But I also could see Hoid lurking for a Lightweaver to get killed and to try and salvage the spren considering that obtaining Surgebinding is a MUCH more complex task than eating a bead or obtaining someone's Breath.

I could very well be wrong with this theory but I think it is neat regardless, but what do all of you think?

Edited by Xaklys
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You might want to take "Elhokar's Spren" out of the title of the thread, as that's a rather significant spoiler.

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It's on the Oathbringer spoiler thread, is it not?  Figured it would be okay.

 

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Just now, Xaklys said:

It's on the Oathbringer spoiler thread, is it not?  Figured it would be okay.

 

Because it shows up on the front page, it's best to keep spoiler facts out of the titles, as well as tagging with [OB] so people scanning the front page know that the topic in question contains spoilers.

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5 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Because it shows up on the front page, it's best to keep spoiler facts out of the titles, as well as tagging with [OB] so people scanning the front page know that the topic in question contains spoilers.

Okay, thanks for the heads up.  I already changed it but I will make sure to keep that in mind (it has been a minute since I posted something, sorry).

Edited by Xaklys
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It's an interesting idea, I agree it's very evident that of all the orders the Light Weavers would be the ideal order for Hoid but I don't think Hoid needs to hang around others to really attract one himself. I would say Hoid is probably the most deceptive being on Roshar and holds the most secrets about himself and the rest of the Cosmere - he should have no trouble attracting a Cryptic.

Also as King's Wit, he was hanging around a potential Elsecaller, Truth Watcher and Bondsmith on a daily basis as well, not to mention influencing an Edgedancer in his spare time. So I don't think his proximity to Elhokar is necessarily a factor.

Edited by Gnmish
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1 minute ago, Gnmish said:

It's an interesting idea, I agree it's very evident that of all the orders the Light Weavers would be the ideal order for Hoid but I don't think Hoid needs to hang around others to really attract one himself. I would say Hoid is probably the most deceptive being on Roshar and holds the most secrets about himself and the rest of the Cosmere - he should have no trouble attracting a Cryptic.

On one hand, I agree with you. On the other, we already have one Spren saying they don't like Hoid because he gives off an odd feeling (I forget Syl's actual words, but it's in WoK, in the Wandersail chapter).

Also (Mistborn era 1 spoiler),

Vin gets an odd feeling from him too,

so we know that he has an unusual presence, shall we say.

I can't really decide about the OP's theory though. I could see it either way.

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3 minutes ago, Bort said:

On one hand, I agree with you. On the other, we already have one Spren saying they don't like Hoid because he gives off an odd feeling (I forget Syl's actual words, but it's in WoK, in the Wandersail chapter).

 

 

  Hide contents

 

 

Well Syl also doesn't like Cryptics (except for Pattern during the Shadesmar arc).  I don't think all spren necessarily have the same opinions about everything, honorspren and Cryptics seem to disagree on a decent bit.

Edited by Xaklys
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Oh, I totally agree. I think if Hoid was going to attract any Spren, it would be a Cryptic. I was just saying that his natural investiture makes him stand out to the similarly invested. It put Syl off, who knows what it would do to a Cryptic?

Now that I think on it, probably put them off too, at least a little, since he has to persuade the Cryptic to go with him, rather than having already attracted one during his years on Roshar.

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Just now, Bort said:

Oh, I totally agree. I think if Hoid was going to attract any Spren, it would be a Cryptic. I was just saying that his natural investiture makes him stand out to the similarly invested. It put Syl off, who knows what it would do to a Cryptic?

Now that I think on it, probably put them off too, at least a little, since he has to persuade the Cryptic to go with him, rather than having already attracted one during his years on Roshar.

Now I can understand this logic, which might be why he would have difficulty attracting a spren on his own.  Thus why he would need to wait for a Lightweaver to die to get a Cryptic.

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Now there's a question for Brandon. Something that was never answered in the books:

Did Hoid plant the faulty gemstones in Elhokar's Shardplate during that first chasmfiend battle?

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4 minutes ago, Bort said:

Now there's a question for Brandon. Something that was never answered in the books:

Did Hoid plant the faulty gemstones in Elhokar's Shardplate during that first chasmfiend battle?

I thought Elhokar did that himself.  I know he cut the straps, but maybe he didn't do that part with the Plate.  Maybe Wit did it and WE are on to SOMETHING.

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No, at the end of WoK, Elhokar admits to Dalinar that he fixed the strap but knew nothing about the gemstones.

Maybe we are onto something here, the only thing is, I'm not entirely sure if Wit is that heartless to go and hang around with proto-Lightweavers in the hope they are killed. He seemed to like Elhokar. Of course, I can see him being a total opportunist, and seizing the moment when it presented itself, regardless of who died.

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3 minutes ago, Bort said:

No, at the end of WoK, Elhokar admits to Dalinar that he fixed the strap but knew nothing about the gemstones.

Maybe we are onto something here, the only thing is, I'm not entirely sure if Wit is that heartless to go and hang around with proto-Lightweavers in the hope they are killed. He seemed to like Elhokar. Of course, I can see him being a total opportunist, and seizing the moment when it presented itself, regardless of who died.

See: "I will watch this world burn if that's what it takes to get what I need" (paraphrased of course).

I think that Wit has taken quite the liking to Shallan but I don't think he would have hesitated to take Pattern if Shallan had died in Kholinar, and she almost did a few times.

I actually COMPLETELY forgot about the gemstones and Wit WAS there on the chasmfiend hunt in TWoK because that is where he was introduced.  That actually adds a decent bit to the theory that I didn't even consider.  I'm ready to see what role he decides to play in the reformed Knights Radiant.

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16 minutes ago, Bort said:

Now there's a question for Brandon. Something that was never answered in the books:

Did Hoid plant the faulty gemstones in Elhokar's Shardplate during that first chasmfiend battle?

I assume since it wasn't answered explicitly that it was the same crew who tried to kill him in WoR (at least some of whom were Diagramists).

I hope it wasn't Hoid. It also seems a bit too sloppy for him.

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7 minutes ago, Song said:

I assume since it wasn't answered explicitly that it was the same crew who tried to kill him in WoR (at least some of whom were Diagramists).

I hope it wasn't Hoid. It also seems a bit too sloppy for him.

Like I said, I could be wrong.  But we also don't really know a whole lot about Hoid in general to make the assumption of what he would and wouldn't do.

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12 minutes ago, Xaklys said:

Like I said, I could be wrong.  But we also don't really know a whole lot about Hoid in general to make the assumption of what he would and wouldn't do.

It is a really interesting thought, particularly with Wits presence at hunt

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Just now, Song said:

It is a really interesting thought, particularly with Wits presence at hunt

Exactly, I know the Alethi treat things such as that like sport but now that I think about it, it was kinda weird for the King's Wit to be there insulting people who are trying to hunt a humongous beast that almost killed them all. 

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I think we need to consider Hoid as part of Cosmere and not just Roshar/Stormlight. I tend to believe he's beyond spren and orders. 

And did he really bond the spren at the end? I didn't think so. I thought he was saving it for someone else. Maybe Navani or Rock.

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2 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

And did he really bond the spren at the end? I didn't think so. I thought he was saving it for someone else. Maybe Navani or Rock.

"I know you'd rather someone else," Wit said, "but it isn't time to be picky.  I'm certain now that the reason I'm in the city is to find you."
"It's either go with me now," Wit said to the wall, "or wait it out and get captured.  I honestly don't even know if you've the mind to listen.  But if you do, know this: I will give you truths.  And I know some juicy ones."
"Life before Death, little one."
- taken from the last page of Oathbringer.

He may not have known when he got to Kholinar that he needed to get the Cryptic, but he said he would give it truths which is all that the Order of Lightweavers need for their bond.  That way he doesn't have to be bound by specific mantras and Oaths like the other Orders do, all he has to do is say true things to the Cryptic.  It is, in fact, the perfect Order for Hoid.

Hoid also didn't know about the mission to Kholinar from the Knights Radiant so he didn't know Elhokar was there so I think my theory is still safe.

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3 hours ago, Bort said:

Also (Mistborn era 1 spoiler),

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Vin gets an odd feeling from him too,

 

so we know that he has an unusual presence, shall we say.

I can't really decide about the OP's theory though. I could see it either way.

 

Actually in that scene he isn't him to cause the feeling, there were others circumstances in motion

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3 hours ago, Bort said:

Now there's a question for Brandon. Something that was never answered in the books:

Did Hoid plant the faulty gemstones in Elhokar's Shardplate during that first chasmfiend battle?

We didn't all jump to the conclusion that the gems cracked because they were low on Stormlight, and that the reason for that was the same reason as any other suspiciously dun gem around somebody who might someday become a Radiant?

ETA: On the OP: Cryptic-farming doesn't seem like something Hoid would do directly, but I can easily picture him having "Plan M: If one of the Junior Lightweaver-scouts dies, swoop in and bond their Cryptic."

Edited by digitalbusker
And another thing!
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It's pretty clear that he wants to bond that Cryptic, at least in the short term. As mentioned the Lightweavers are the perfect Order for Hoid to join if he wanted to do that, since they come with practically no restrictions on his behavior that he'd have to work around. Why is another question, since there's not much that Radiance can really offer him so far as we know. He's physically incapable of hurting people so he gets no benefit out of having a living Shardblade, he can already Lightweave (his system may not be exactly the same but the Ars Arcanum does mention that Rosharan Lightweaving is extremely close to the Yolenese original) and his healing power makes Miles Hundredlives look like a wimp so stormlight healing isn't useful to him either. I can think of two possibilities: First, he's investigating Honor's Investiture for whatever his nebulous goal is and it would be far easier to learn what he needs with his own Nahel bond than by trying to figure things out as an outside observer. Though if this was the case, it would probably make more sense for him to have been the person who stole Taln's Honorblade since that's 'closer to the source' as it were, and we know he didn't do it. Second and what I think is more likely right now, he needs/wants access to Soulcasting for some reason. Getting it via a Nahel bond is a lot more useful that getting it via fabrial due to the essence limitations on the latter type.

Random aside, we know it's difficult for a Radiant to leave Roshar's Cognitive region due to the spren being bound to it, but it's something that you could work around. We see Hoid on Scadrial at some point after SA5. So either he worked out how to get his spren off Roshar (there's no real evidence either way here, The Lost Metal might give us some indications) or at some point in the next couple of books the bond is going to be broken one way or another.

And to the original question, I could see Hoid being mercenary enough to hang around potential Lightweavers looking for an opportunity like the one that arose in Oathbringer, but at the same time I don't think that's what happened here. If he was planning that from the start, he shouldn't have been so uncertain what his 'Hoid-sense' had brought him to Kholinar for.

@digitalbusker That's a good idea, but given the circumstances of Elhokar's death (ie, in the process of swearing the First Ideal) he probably wouldn't have been capable of taking in stormlight. He could have been like Shallan and formed a bond (but one so early that he wasn't really aware of it) and then regressed but if you're to the point that you need to swear the first of the ideals again you haven't so much strained your bond as broken it entirely.

Edited by Weltall
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9 hours ago, Bort said:

 

Sorry Bort but I can't remove this quotation, Just ignore that.

@Weltall proto-radiant are able to drawn some Stormlight before to speak the First Ideal as the bond already started. But if they Seal the Bond with the Oaths, It could evaporare away

Edited by Yata
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5 hours ago, Yata said:

Actually in that scene he isn't him to cause the feeling, there were others circumstances in motion

This is true. I had forgottenthat. 

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