Chromium Compounder Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 I'm not done with WoR yet, but I just passed a part that I had to mention before I forget it. When Eshonai is speaking with the 5 she says the Surgebinding they saw at the Tower battle could have been one of the Honorblades, and that they "left one in Alethkar that night". We don't know exactly what Honorblades are, but I think we may have enough hear to tell us a little bit. We have WoB that Szeth's surgebinding doesn't come through a nahel bond with a spren like Kaladin's, but he wouldn't say how it did come. Currently my theory is that it comes through his blade, and that his blade is the Honorblade Eshonai was talking about. I could very easily be proven wrong by something later in the story, but I didn't want to forget about this before I finished the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandi Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Maybe - but there are (in addition to Szeth's) 7 other Honor blades floating around...1 Herald retrieved theirs and Taln still has his since he did not abandon the Oathpact, so that leaves Szeth's + 7... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 is it weird to anyone else, that the powers granted directly by Honor to the Heralds, via the Honorblades, seem weaker than the power granted to KR by bonding with Spren? I'm glad, otherwise Szeth would be even more crazy powerful, but the fact that his Honorblade granted windrunning is less effective at utilizing stormlight than Kaladin's level 3 Nahel bond powers seems interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomeness Summoned Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Yeah that bothered me too. It seemed strange the heralds would be weaker than the KR but I started to think that maybe the honorblades only give a partical effect to people who aren't their herald owners and not the full power that the heralds themselves have. I would compare it to the partial investing the KR seem to be hinted at being able to give to their "squires". So, Taln for instance would be far more powerful when wielding his own blade than say if Adolin was using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 is it weird to anyone else, that the powers granted directly by Honor to the Heralds, via the Honorblades, seem weaker than the power granted to KR by bonding with Spren? I'm glad, otherwise Szeth would be even more crazy powerful, but the fact that his Honorblade granted windrunning is less effective at utilizing stormlight than Kaladin's level 3 Nahel bond powers seems interesting. I think that it's because the Honorblades are storing/feeding off of Stormlight. I think the Honorblades can use their stored Stormlight to seriously powerful effect. Like, Nightblood-level power. I'm unsure though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terox Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I think that Szeth is a flawed medium for his Honorblade. They grant surgebinding , but without spren bond checks .So if you aren't acting along the Order's ideals ,your surgebinding strength will be reduced. Also note that Jezrien's blade isn't ornamented like the other Sharblades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I think that Szeth is a flawed medium for his Honorblade. They grant surgebinding , but without spren bond checks .So if you aren't acting along the Order's ideals ,your surgebinding strength will be reduced. Except that's exactly not what the book says! Exclamation mark because I am excited, not because I am yelling at you or something. The reason a Knight's Surgebinding strength, as you put it, is reduced is because of his or her spren. The Radiants have to act in a way that allows them to maintain their Nahel bond, otherwise their spren will just up and leave. Or die. Because that's how spren work - you get creative, you attract a creationspren; you get all honorable and protective, you attract an honorspren. But just like when you calm down your creationspren goes away, when you leave the state of mind that allowed you to attract an honorspren, you lose it. Now, it's very likely that the Nahel bond mitigates the temporal aspect of all this - so if you stop thinking honorable thoughts for 5 minutes, you don't lose your spren altogether - but it's not a free ride even with it. This being said, it does feel like Jezrien's Honorblade is weaker than, say, Kaladin's Shardblade (I really want to start calling it Sprenblade at this point, by the way). If Kaladin could choose between the two, and he acted the way a Windrunner is supposed to act, the Honorblade would be near useless to him. So there has to be more to it. It could, of course, be just the tradeoff "you can do whatever you want but with less power, or you have to act a certain way, but you get more power when you do" but I am not sure how I feel about that... And finally, it's possible that Sprenblades are more powerful than Honorblades, because while Honorblades were (likely, kind of) created by Honor, the Shardblades are essentially Splinters of Honor. The difference between teaching someone (or something) how to do something you can do, and doing the thing yourself. Also, about that Honorblade Eshonai says they left in Alethkar - I always assumed she was referring to Szeth's. They commanded him to kill Gavilar, but didn't tell him to follow their people or anything else. As far as she knew, he just kind of sat there, Honorblade and all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I see what you're saying Argent, and I think that I agree for the most part. Definitely agree on the Parshendi leaving Szeth and his honorblade behind. What if they are tied to the Heralds in some way and the Honorblade's ineffectiveness is related to the lack of honorable actions on the Herald's parts? Questions that I have right now: Where the heck did the Parshendi learn about honorblades? From Szeth? He always says he's not supposed to talk about it, even to his masters... so they must have already known? Where is Taln's Honorblade that he brought with him to Alethkar? The one that Dalinar bonded with was a regular dead Sprenblade, otherwise he wouldn't have heard the screams when he summoned it after bonding with the Stormfather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomeness Summoned Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Where is Taln's Honorblade that he brought with him to Alethkar? The one that Dalinar bonded with was a regular dead Sprenblade, otherwise he wouldn't have heard the screams when he summoned it after bonding with the Stormfather. The WoR thread is far too active right now for me to have any hope of locating all the relevant threads, but this has been discussed a bit. It's commonly assumed someone switched the blade (Hoid maybe?) at some point. Someone asked Peter, shouldn't the blade Dalinar got from Taln be an honorblade? His response was something like, "you would think wouldn't you"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 If you are going to use my terminology, use it right I refer to the Blades Kaladin and Shallan can summon (Blades created from their bonded spren) as Sprenblades; Blades such as, for example, the one Adolin uses are still Shardblades in my mind. So a "dead" Sprenblade = Shardblade. That out of the way, I haven't the slightest how the listeners know about the Honorblades. From their songs, maybe? They seem to remember more of the distant past than the other nations do, except for maybe the Shin. Or maybe they and the Shin were alias at the time when the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, and they collectively decided to leave the Blades with the Shin. Or maybe the Parshendi and the Shin were the same people at one point! *cue drumroll* 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromptj Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I think that Szeth mentions that his people have the other Honorblades. I can only guess that the Heralds left them in Shinovar when they broke the Oathpact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I am not sure they left them in Shinnovar - they just left them. And it either happened to be in Shinnovar, or the Shin moved them there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 If you are going to use my terminology, use it right I refer to the Blades Kaladin and Shallan can summon (Blades created from their bonded spren) as Sprenblades; Blades such as, for example, the one Adolin uses are still Shardblades in my mind. So a "dead" Sprenblade = Shardblade. Noted and apologies great one It could be their songs, but I feel like since the Parshendi seem to have only recently discovered any forms outside of dull/mate/war that it would have been hard for them to remember facts like Honorblades give surgebinding... who's talking to them?? that is one of the great mysteries of the Stormlight Archive for me right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oathbringer Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I believe as well that honorblade did not give full power. It probably requires the weilder to be a part of the oathpact just like the KR have the Navel bond and oaths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I believe as well that honorblade did not give full power. It probably requires the weilder to be a part of the oathpact just like the KR have the Navel bond and oaths Haha, I know it's just autocorrect, but I love the idea of spren/KR "navel" bonds... like an umbilical cord! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepene Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Brandon has stated elsewhere that Nalthis and Roshar powers are similar, I believe. So I would guess that the Blade's greater consumption of power is similar to weapons like Nightblood in their greater consumption of breaths to be produced. When you make investiture do something unnatural, against its purpose (such as make human soul fragments animate cold metal) it takes a lot more power. When you make an Honorblade be used against the honorable purpose it was made for, it uses more power. As such, I would predict that by behaving in a more honorable manner you could reduce the blade's investiture consumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticSplicer Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 I think the honorblades are "dead" the same way the shardblades are dead. The heralds had to forge oaths to gain them, same as the knights radiant make oaths to their Spren. When the heralds broke their oaths the Honorblades died and became significantly weaker. Doesn't it take Shen ten heartbeats to summon his honorblade, just like the dead shardblades? I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't give citations. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armless writer Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 The shin assassins name is Szeth not Shen, Shen is a parshendi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonelymagician Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 I really want to start calling it Sprenblade at this point, by the way Seconded. They are very different things at this point; one is dead, the other alive. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kersplattle Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Argent, I read that part of WoR (comment by Syl) to imply NOT that the power is reduced but that an Honourblade can be used for means that a proper Windrunner sprenblade could not. That is, not that the power is reduced but the freedom of action is. So Kaladin versus Szeth, Kaladin can only wield Syl in ways consonant with his oaths. I think you also make the point about the ends to which the blade can be used, just I don't see the reference to power. The quote (Kindle Edition) is "...With this sword, someone can do what you can, but without the...checks a spren requires" then "This sword gave the assassin power to use Lashings, but it also fed upon his Stormlight. A person who uses this will need far, far more Light than you will. Dangerous levels of it." I read "the checks" as moral ones. I notice that something else that suggests a source of the Herald's "power", Taln is inhumanly quick in intercepting the darts aimed at Amaram, imagine that speed allied to an honourblade. Szeth is noted as being extremely quick to move when fighting, that's probably something else the honourblade gives him, but the Heralds are probably naturally fast as well. I speculate that the Heralds are also naturally always full of Stormlight, so heal from all but immediately mortal wounds rapidly and have unlimited access to their surges etc; or they don't need Stormlight, which sort of amounts to the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromium Compounder Posted March 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Where is Taln's Honorblade that he brought with him to Alethkar? The one that Dalinar bonded with was a regular dead Sprenblade, otherwise he wouldn't have heard the screams when he summoned it after bonding with the Stormfather. I've been wondering that as well. The only thing I can think is that Hoid switched them at some point before it got to Dalinar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quazar87 Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Note how Taln can catch darts with his bare hands while being without his blade and mostly insane. I think Heralds have a lot of power independent from their blades, but related to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 I suspect Taln still has his Honorblade, and somehow got his hands on a Shardblade as well. We have never seen him in a situation where his life was threatened enough to summon his blade. Will be interesting to see what happens when he bumps into a thunderclast. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromium Compounder Posted March 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 I suspect Taln still has his Honorblade, and somehow got his hands on a Shardblade as well. We have never seen him in a situation where his life was threatened enough to summon his blade. Will be interesting to see what happens when he bumps into a thunderclast. Interesting idea. Definitely possible, though it seemed to me like Taln hadn't had much time after coming back before arriving in Kholinar. I'm still in favor of the idea that Hoid switched them. That doesn't mean that Taln isn't still bound to his blade and couldn't summon it if he needed to, but I think Hoid would be in favor of keeping Taln's Honorblade safe until he was recovered enough to make use of it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistWit Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) We must be missing some piece of information because from what we've seen the honorblades aren't as strong as sprenblades and the heralds should obviously be more powerful than regular radiants (I mean they come back from the dead, live for thousands of years, and are worshiped as divinities by some cultures). Whether the honorblades just don't work as well for people who aren't Heralds or their power has decreased since the end of the othpact something is definitely doing on. Edited March 11, 2014 by Inquisitor of Wit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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