[OB] Where is Odium's army?

[WhiteLeeopard]

49 minutes ago, Kaleid said:

 

I've seen this sentiment a few times - why do people think Moash is now Odium's champion? Doesn't Taravangian's final chapter pretty much explicitly state that that ship has sailed? Odium has already selected his champion, he cannot now unselect his champion because suddenly he believes he might have a better option.

That is not so clear. Odium can't go back on his word to have a duel of champions, That the Blackthorn must be his champion is not such a clear cut decision, specially when Dalinar has shaken down Odium's effects. T made it clear if Odium meets Dalinar after having agreed to the duel, Odium would be in trouble. However, what does troubles are were not so clear to me, it could simply be that Odium had lost his perfect champion and was left with worse options while Honor's side had some big picks. 

Or it could be like you say that Odium can't choose another champion. 

[TequilaJack]

On 1/3/2018 at 10:40 AM, Kaleid said:

Odium seems a rather impotent god who has already lost. 

We've not seen full power Odium yet. He is in Greater Roshar system, but not on planet Roshar. Just projection of his power and abilities splintered 3 shards. It still was enough to send Cultivation into hiding. 

All Dalinar won was against one such projection and potentially Odium was overconfident and made a strategic withdrawal in last book as he was probably not ready for a duel with an ascended Dalinar yet.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2018 by TequilaJack

[The One Who Connects]

23 hours ago, Varenus said:

Given enough stormlight, I think Renarin could still survive as he has the surge of healing as well as stormlight healing. Maybe not the others though, Renarin is a wildcard right now. The Heralds are weird, supposedly Honor fueled them directly and they never needed stormlight while he was alive. So did they have infinite healing as well? Apparently not or they probably wouldn't have died at all. Maybe they needed to separate the herald from their blade to stop the healing, but that would be the same as running out of stormlight. So I think that getting smashed is still survivable if the Knight or Herald is healing.

You've already explained why when you spoke about Renarin.

With 2 exceptions(Vedel and Paliah), the Heralds would be in the same bin as most of the Radiants. Normal (slow) Stormlight Healing only. Doesn't matter if you have infinite healing, if you heal slowly, you can still die. Szeth's perspective on his broken jaw in WoK prologue points this out.

[Kaleid]

6 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

We've not seen full power Odium yet. He is in Greater Roshar system, but not on planet Roshar. Just projection of his power and abilities splintered 3 shards. It still was enough to send Cultivation into hiding. 

All Dalinar won was against one such projection and potentially Odium was overconfident and made a strategic withdrawal in last book as he was probably not ready for a duel with an ascended Dalinar yet.

 

 

 

My question then is - what IS, as you put it, Odium's True Power?

 

 

[Varenus]

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Normal (slow) Stormlight Healing only. Doesn't matter if you have infinite healing, if you heal slowly, you can still die. Szeth's perspective on his broken jaw in WoK prologue points this out.

Perhaps, but is it really that slow? I'm not certain that Szeth's words and experiences holding Jezrien's Honorblade can be applied to Radiants because:

1) Szeth didn't know that Radiants could heal Shardblade wounds. I subscribe to the theory that Szeth was or was associated with the Shin Stoneshamans, so I believe Szeth when he says that a person(who is not a Herald) holding an Honorblade can't heal those wounds. Which means that Honorblade healing and Radiant healing is different.

2) Szeth said that his broken jaw would take hours to heal(If I am remembering correctly), but our Radiants have healed more grievous wounds in less time. Kaladin breaking both his legs in the duel in WoR didn't even take 5 minutes. Again, Shallan getting shot in the head. Kaladin healing after getting beaten up by Moash in Shardplate was described similar to "water droplets evaporating on a hot pan " (or something similar) and he had a massive leg wound as well. That last one might be considered a special case because he had just sworn his third oath, but still. 

3) Honorblades already have a reputation for being inferior to a sprenbond when wielded by someone who is not a Herald when it comes to stormlight consumption, why not healing as well?  

So I'm taking Szeth's thoughts and actions with his Honorblade with a grain of salt when it comes to comparing them to Radiants. 

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Doesn't matter if you have infinite healing, if you heal slowly, you can still die

This WoB makes me think differently(emphasis in bold, spoiler for length):

Spoiler

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Play/Pause

 

Questioner

Could a bloodmaker heal a Shardblade wound?

Brandon Sanderson

Could a...whatmaker? Oh, could a bloodmaker heal a Shardblade wound? Um, yes, yes they could. So, what...so, yes, this is possible. (Long pause) Is it possible? I haven't actually thought about it. I have to work through the mechanics of the magics. Jury's out. Jury's out. I've gotta go and look at the actual mechanics, so I'm gonna "jury's out" on that one. That's a read and find out as, you would think I'd figured that one out, because I'm planning for the conflicts but I haven't, like... So what's happening with the healing on Roshar is that they are using Stormlight to bridge the severed soul and glue it back together, right. So, the magic of bloodmaking is different to an extent, in that it is prompting healing directly from the body, right... I'm gonna go with yes, until I look at it but, jury's out

So, stormlight healing can be used to glue together a "soul". If we are interpreting soul to mean Cognitive + Spiritual, that would imply that stormlight healing is similar to what happens to Cognitive Shadows, but in a less permanent manner. In that so long as the Radiant has stormlight in their body, their "soul" is not separating into its Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual parts no matter how fatal a wound they receive in the physical. Which fits with Honor's theme of creating and holding bonds, the bonds that form a human in this case.

This line of reasoning also explains why Bloodmakers can't survive being shot in the head, while Shallan can. Yes, they could heal the physical damage if they were fast enough and had enough stored health(like if they were compounding), and yes they can heal spiritual wounds as well(as described in other WoBs). But ferucemical healing isn't doing anything to keep the Bloodmaker's pieces together, unlike stormlight healing. 

So that is my head cannon as to why a Radiant could survive an encounter with a thunderclast, assuming that the thunderclast doesn't just squeeze them until their stormlight drains away. That being said, this is mostly supposition on my part.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Varenus

[The One Who Connects]

13 hours ago, Varenus said:

Bloodmakers can't survive being shot in the head, while Shallan can. [...] Feruchemical healing isn't doing anything to keep the Bloodmaker's pieces together,

Bloodmakers can survive decapitation. Yes, the question asks about a Compounder, but the real power of compounding is just filling F-Reserves faster. A normal Blookmaker can store that much health given enough time, so they can survive it too. I'd think that counts as "keeping pieces together," in a sense.

13 hours ago, Varenus said:

I'm not certain that Szeth's words and experiences holding Jezrien's Honorblade can be applied to Radiants

Not directly applied, no. But the primary point is still there. Stormlight doesn't heal instantly(Renarin/Progression is a special case), so one can still be killed if the damage is done faster than it heals. Our whole understanding of Stormlight healing(before OB, at least) was that a killing blow is still a killing blow.

Sure, Kaladin healed his broken legs in five-ish minutes, but that's still a decent amount of time that his ground mobility would be suffering. Dalinar vs Chasmfiend Claw shows us that speed and mobility against something like that is vital. Had that claw slammed down, Elhokar would've died even with Plate. I really feel like the same would be true for a normal Radiant. If the blow is slightly off and it would've crippled them, by all means let them heal from it. I just feel like a killing blow should be a killing blow.

14 hours ago, Varenus said:

3) Honorblades already have a reputation for being inferior to a sprenbond when wielded by someone who is not a Herald when it comes to stormlight consumption, why not healing as well?  

They are less efficient even when a Herald holds them. (Not your point, just a thing to remember). As for your actual point, I somewhat disagree. I think the passive healing of Stormlight is a quality of the Stormlight itself(why most everybody is healthier on Roshar). I think you heal quicker when you have more Stormlight(which makes sense), so Szeth's healing was less efficient because he couldn't hold as much Stormlight as a KR can.

[Varenus]

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

They are less efficient even when a Herald holds them. (Not your point, just a thing to remember).

Ah, thanks for telling me. I didn't know if it would or not.

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Szeth's healing was less efficient because he couldn't hold as much Stormlight as a KR can.

But doesn't holding an Honorblade let you hole even more stormlight than a Radiant? Dangerous amounts even? The WoB that you linked says as much, and Syl also mentions it somewhere in WoR. So if the amount  of stormlight changes the speed in which you heal( and I agree that it does with normal Radiants), shouldn't Szeth's healing be faster than Kaladin's? Maybe I am just misunderstanding.

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Bloodmakers can survive decapitation. Yes, the question asks about a Compounder, but the real power of compounding is just filling F-Reserves faster. A normal Blookmaker can store that much health given enough time, so they can survive it too.

Oh I agree, I just wasn't sure if should count that scenario as it would take the Bloodmaker ages to store that much health up.

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'd think that counts as "keeping pieces together," in a sense.

 

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Stormlight doesn't heal instantly(Renarin/Progression is a special case), so one can still be killed if the damage is done faster than it heals.

And here we come to the crux of the issue. I think that there is a distinct difference. Lets take the Guillotine example from the WoB. Say that it takes 1 second for the blade to separate the person's Physical self from their "soul". Assume both Radiants and Bloodmakers have infinite stormlight and health storages. 

The feruchemist can heal the damage infinity fast. So by the time that one second passes, the gold compounder can have a new head(or new body?) in 0.5 seconds. And this process can be scaled to fit any time interval, because there will all ways be a shorter time that the Bloodmaker can heal in(assuming they have enough health stored). So the bloodmakers connections are never actually decaying, because they(the person's physical body) are healing so fast that the connections never realize they should be in danger. If they could only heal in 1.1 seconds they would still die because their connection to their body is gone. So I agree that speed matters when it comes to Bloodmakers/gold compunders.

When it comes to Radiants, they are not nearly as fast(as you said), and yet are able to survive killing blows just as easily. They don't need to heal the damage in less than 1 second because their connections are being forcibly held together with stormlight(at least that is the way I am interpreting the WoB I quoted). They don't have a time limit other than how long it would take for their stormlight to drain away. So the speed of healing is not as big an issue.

Therefore I propose that the limiting factor of F healing is the amount of time it takes for the damage a person's body sustains to separate their soul and body. Heal before that mark and you live, heal after and you die. The limiting factor of Stormligh healing is the amount of stormlight you have because the Radiant will just be "mostly dead" while their body heals. Doesn't matter if you are "mostly dead" for hours or for a few seconds. All that matters is that you have enough stormlight while you slowly heal(slow being a relative term here). 

Other thoughts:

1) Radiants are the Sprens' way of copying the Heralds. The Heralds are Cognitive Shadows. makes sense that Stormlight healing would function similar to the mechanics of Cognitive Shadows.

2) Fits with all things being equal. Give a Bloodmaker infinite storage and he can heal almost any wound. Give a Radiant infinite stormlight and they can do the same. They just do it differently and at different speeds. Bloodmaker is faster, but the Radiant can sustain damage to their connections.

3) If a thunderclast smashed a Bloodmaker, they would only have to wait till their soul separated. It would take the amount of time for a Radiant's stormlight to run out to kill them in the same way. 

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Our whole understanding of Stormlight healing(before OB, at least) was that a killing blow is still a killing blow.

If this was a WoR discussion I would agree with you, but OB threw everything back up into the air.

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I just feel like a killing blow should be a killing blow.

Yeah, I was kind of upset when Shallan got shot. I am happy she survived, but I felt that should have been enough to kill a Radiant(based off WoR that is). 

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

If the blow is slightly off and it would've crippled them, by all means let them heal from it.

Agreed, sort of. All the thuderclast would have to do is hold down for a few seconds. It probably would only take a few extra seconds as stormlight healing takes more stormlight for larger amounts of damage. However I don't think it would instantly kill them through their stormlight (that is to say, kill them while they still had stormlight in them). They would have to wait for the stormlight to be exhausted. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Varenus

[The One Who Connects]

41 minutes ago, Varenus said:

But doesn't holding an Honorblade let you hold even more Stormlight than a Radiant?

I'm not actually sure. I was gonna say no, but all I can find on here is two discussions about how quickly Stormlight escapes their bodies.

Quote

1. Kaladin is about 10x more efficient than Szeth (even more after he spoke the Second Ideal), as judged by the fact that he could hold his breath 15-30 minutes while Szeth can do it for a few minutes at most.
2. Well, we do know that Kaladin has greater efficiency with Stormlight than Szeth. The easy evidence for this is that Szeth leaks Stormlight like a sieve and he also can't hold his breath with Stormlight nearly as long as Kaladin can.

I swear there was also a discussion regarding Szeth's extreme Stormlight draw in WoK I-9.

Quote

"So let it be," Szeth said, breathing deeply, sucking in the Stormlight of the many gemstones tied in the pouches at his waist. The Light began to rage within him, like a highstorm in his chest, burning and screaming. He breathed in more than he'd ever held before, holding it until he was barely able to keep the Stormlight from ripping him apart.
[...]
Szeth spun into motion, liquid tempest in his veins. Holding this much Stormlight made it easier to infuse things; the light wanted out, and it pushed against his skin.

During the Highstorm fight in WoR, we get Kaladin's PoV. During said Highstorm scene:

Quote

Remember that they were also using Stormlight at a prodigious rate in the storm, flying around and fighting, and they definitely had it coming off their skin a lot; they're described as "two glowing figures", and it says about “Szeth’s glow could not be hidden, and Kaladin kept his attention on that blazing beacon”, and just before that, when Szeth dips into the storm and regains his Stormlight, it calls it a "stark white explosion".

That shows how much Stormlight they were holding during the Storm, and I don't think Kaladin ever describes feeling like Szeth did, despite the sheer volume of Stormlight around/within him. So I made the assumption that Szeth simply could not hold as much as Kaladin could.

(Does anyone in the Battle of Thaylen Fields describe something similar? That would be useful to know.)

---

1 hour ago, Varenus said:

3) If a Thunderclast smashed a Radiant, they would have to wait for their Stormlight to run out to kill them that way. 

I really do not like this. It just feels.. unnatural. But that colors-cursed Kholin boy is preventing me from just disagreeing with you. "Up in the air" indeed...

1 hour ago, Varenus said:

1) Radiants are the Spren's way of copying the Heralds. The Heralds are Cognitive Shadows. makes sense that Stormlight healing would function similar to the mechanics of Cognitive Shadows.

I think they were copying the Honorblades more than copying the Heralds, but I could be misinterpreting the WoB.
I also don't think they could "see"(so to speak) that the Heralds were Cognitive Shadows in order to copy them. I feel like they would just see that "something's up," but not specifically what. MB:SH Spoilers(kinda)

Spoiler

If a Spren looked at Kelsier, would they be able to tell he's a CS stapled into a body? I'm not sure they would.

[+Extesian]

The Honorblades are less efficient with investiture because they don't bond as deeply to the bearer as a Nahel bond does. So I suspect they can take in as much Stormlight but it's l basically bursting out of them because it can't be used as efficiently.  Also hence not being able to heal as effectively as a Radiant. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible(in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

Source

 

[thejopen27]

On 1/3/2018 at 2:28 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Do you mean when they became Cognitive Shadows? When they became the Heralds? (Assuming the two aren't one and the same.) When they were born?

Upon a reread, I realize that the Heralds must be people from after the return of the Fused. The Stormfather says that the fused started to return and kept returning immediately after being killed. He tells Dalinar that the Oathpact was then made to stop the cycle of returns. Therefore the Heralds came from people living in the world after the end of human invasion of the greater Roshar during the first attacks of the Fused and the beginning of the Odium-Singer alliance.

[Cosmé]

On 1/5/2018 at 2:39 AM, Varenus said:

Curious as to why you think this, because unless we are talking about Radiants of the first or second ideal, the Fused don't really seem all that threatening to our Knights so far. 

Kaladin was able to successfully defend Dalinar from not only a Yalig-Nar enhanced, shardplate wearing, dual shardblade wealding Amaram; but a handful of the Fused at the same time. Sure Rock saved him at the very end, but the only times Kaladin was in any danger from the Fused was when he was out of stormlight. Storms, He even "killed" one without using any lashings while he was with the wall guard and he is only of the third ideal. 

Jasnah, who is probably of the fourth ideal if not the fifth, was destroying their vessels with her eyes practically closed. 

So, yes while their ability to return from the dead is fancy, they can't really kill a Radiant either. What wound would be able to kill a Radiant that a Fused could deliver? They don't have shardblades of their own that we have seen. Getting smashed by a thunderclast does not work as Renarin survived it easily enough. Shallan got shot in the storming head, so even stabbing them through their eyes wouldn't work. That leaves complete beheading and maybe the surge of division. Both of which become much harder, if not impossible, once a Radiant gets their plate. 

Well, they’re on the same level, in the same sense that Adolin and other traditional shardbearers are on the same level. Adolin can defeat most shardbearers, and perhaps multiple at a time, but he still has comparable powers to them, and can be overwhelmed by a few. Similarly, while Kaladin as a main protagonist has very strong fighting ability, any of his bridgeman Radiants would probably fight on a similar level to a Fused, and he would be much more evenly matched against four Fused than four tradditionl shard bearers. Remember how Szeth basically defeated all of the shardbearers in the Ja Kaved court in ten minutes.

Also notable, Radiants and Fused are of similar strategic value. Five Fused constitute a dangerous wall assault against an army of defenders, just as a similar number of bridge men probably would, although neither can hold ground. They even fill similar roles in an army. 

Our named Radiants are very strong at the moment, but I think we will see the Fused become more dangerous in the next books. 

[KidWayne]

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 0:07 PM, Kaleid said:

If Odium couldn't even take Thaylenah, what hope does he have against something as well situated as Urithuru?

Theylenah was a trick play. Your question is like asking why - after a sack on a flea-flicker play - the Patriots have any hope of defeating the Browns.

The whole hope of winning at Theylenah rested on converting Dalinar into Odium's Champion, turning Sadeas' soldiers into Odium's footsoldiers, a surprise attack by thunderclasts, and depriving the remaining forces of their Navy. With Dalinar, on his side, Odium would surely have won (as the remaining Radiants would have run out of stormlight and been reduced to ordinary sharbearers without plate).