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[OB] Unpopular Opinion: Evi's death was underwhelming


TheDoomsday

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1 minute ago, Vissy said:

To clarify, while I did enjoy Dalinar's arc, reading it all did feel genuinely disturbing to me. It made me genuinely dislike Dalinar for the first time. I think I'm back to sort-of liking him again, but I almost wish he wasn't such a good Bondsmith. 

Yeah it was super interesting reading Dalinars viewpoints for me because it was like learning that your favorite, kind hearted lovable uncle, was a complete and utter jerk in the past. Even thought it hinted at it a lot in the previous books with the blackthorne most feared man alive, conquered the kingdom by himself, it was still super shocking

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Her death was horrible, but narratively it couldn't be too directly at the hands of Dalinar or we the readers wouldn't be willing to forgive him.  It happening "off screen" also allows Dalinar to struggle with the issue, and entertain the thought that maybe it wasn't entirely his fault and continue to plod onwards under a great amount of guilt.  If however he had just ripped Evi's head off during a berserker rage, one imagines Dalinar would have taken his own life afterwards from the overwhelming guilt.  Overall I thought Brandon balanced the scene well, Dalinar bears some responsibility for what happened, but there were also enough extenuating circumstances that he's not completely beyond redemption as a character.

On 1/2/2018 at 10:26 AM, maxal said:

Evi gave herself away to the Kholins. She married a monster and yet she did not despair. She tried her best to try to tame the wild beast he was, she tried to encourage him to be a man, not a monster. She sacrificed everything she ever held dear: her life, her happiness, his firstborn son. She gave Adolin away to his blood-thirsty father, she made the boy hero-worship his father. she made him love Dalinar so much he would never second-guess him even when daddy turned into an abusive drunk.

Evi did everything she could to be a perfect Alethi wife: she managed to get rid of her accent, she braided her hair like the Alethi women, she learned to scribe like them (despite being left-handed, how hard must it have been!). She put up so much effort and... she was utterly unhappy, sad and miserable the whole time. She bore her husband's warrior ways, but she hoped, she always hoped he would give them away, he would put the Blade away and come home. He never did. Instead, he told her he would torch the Rift, he would burn down women, children and innocent people just because he was angered.

While I love and agree with a lot of your post, I do disagree with the part I've underlined.  I think the flashbacks that we experienced of Dalinar's past with Evi were purposefully chosen to deliver maximum emotional impact, the most impactful and darkest moments of their relationship.  We were supposed to get the impression that Dalinar treated Evi and his family 100% like garbage, as this mirrors the mental anguish and self-recrimination that Dalinar himself goes through by being exposed to these memories.  I don't think this was at all the full picture though, and viewing it as such fits with Dalinar's self-flagellating way of viewing himself.  I anything, I think Evi hated everything about Alethi society that wasn't Dalinar and her immediate family.  Her day to day life was probably quite pleasant and content though, especially as it related to her interactions with Dalinar.

Dalinar and Evi clearly had an affection for one another.  Dalinar thought very highly of Evi and beat himself up over how he didn't deserve her.  The fact that Dalinar felt an overwhelming sense of shame after raising his voice to Evi and slamming the door after an argument, and Evi was burning prayers to the divine after the same argument indicates to me that they likely had a relatively conflict-free relationship.  If they had an even remotely acrimonious relationship, a little argument + slammed door shouldn't be emotionally impacting either of them to the degree that it did.

I think we need to look at the secondary evidence.  People don't notice Dalinar becoming a 100% different person after the events with Nightwatcher/Cultivation.  Even Jasnah/Adolin/Renarin don't note an extreme personality change.  They notice the drunkenness receding, but that's usually about it.  Overall, I think "Dalinar the General" (after Adolin's birth) personality-wise was extremely similar to the Dalinar we have now.  A little emotionally distant due to the demands of his position, but largely loved by his troops, admired by his children, loved by his spouse etc.  He even went to incredible lengths to allow the Rift to surrender before the battle, but fate and being nearly 100% possessed by The Thrill after his near death experience betrayed his efforts at redemption.  At his core though I think we can read between the lines that Dalinar and Evi were largely happy with one another.

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@Subvisual Haze as additional support for this, note that Navani saw Dalinar and Evi has having a really solid relationship, one which she characterizes as “love.” (I think she’s wrong in that regard, but nevertheless that was her perception.) We also have a WoB that while Navani isn’t the most reliable, because good thoughts about Evi are against her interest, she’s being pretty truthful when she relates them. The “beast” that was the Blackthorn wasn’t what people saw in his marriage; he wasn’t a beast to his wife. (I think your point about how upset they both were about an argument with yelling and a slammed door is a really good one. That clearly wasn’t a common occurrence in their relationship.)

Navani perspective:

Quote

“Well, it looked a lot like hatred,” Navani said. “Though I did wonder several times what you were hiding behind those stony eyes of yours. Of course, then Shshshsh came along.”

As always, when the name of his wife was spoken, it came to him as the sound of softly rushing air, then slipped from his mind immediately. He could not hear, or remember, the name.

“She changed everything,” Navani said. “You truly seemed to love her.”

“I did,” Dalinar said. Surely he had loved her. Hadn’t he? He could remember nothing. “What was she like?” He quickly added, “I mean, in your opinion. How did you see her?”

“Everyone loved Shshshsh,” Navani said. “I tried hard to hate her, but in the end, I could only be mildly jealous.”

“You? Jealous of her? Whatever for?”

“Because,” Navani said. “She fit you so well, never making inappropriate comments, never bullying those around her, always so calm.” Navani smiled. “Thinking back, I really should have been able to hate her. But she was just so nice. Though she wasn’t very … well …”

“What?” Dalinar asked.

“Clever,” Navani said. She blushed, which was rare for her. “I’m sorry, Dalinar, but she just wasn’t. She wasn’t a fool, but … well … not everyone can be cunning. Perhaps that was part of her charm.”

She seemed to think that Dalinar would be offended. “It’s all right,” he said. “Were you surprised that I married her?”

“Who could be surprised? As I said, she was perfect for you.”

“Because we were matched intellectually?” Dalinar said dryly.

“Hardly. But you were matched in temperament. For a time, after I got over trying to hate her, I thought that the four of us could be quite close. But you were so stiff toward me.”

WoK, Ch. 64, A Man of Extremes

WoB:

Quote

komekoro

Is what Navani said about Dalinar's wife accurate?

Brandon Sanderson

What specifically?

Kogiopsis

She says that she thought they could have been friends.

swamp-spirit

And that she's kind of the unassuming personality, the sweetness…

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That is correct.

lunarubato

Correct objectively or correct in her opinion?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, definitely correct in her opinion. But yes. And Navani is something of a slightly untrustworthy narrator, but I would go with, in that case, the fact that she's saying it and not being angry and– Her natural instinct would be to hate this woman; that's how Navani is, and the fact that she doesn't probably means that in this case she's being pretty truthful.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/162-steelheart-portland-signing/#e2980

 

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16 hours ago, Vissy said:

To clarify, while I did enjoy Dalinar's arc, reading it all did feel genuinely disturbing to me. It made me genuinely dislike Dalinar for the first time. I think I'm back to sort-of liking him again, but I almost wish he wasn't such a good Bondsmith. 

It was disturbing to me as well, in that I saw much of myself in it. While my path was not violent, I walked for a long while further and further into a depressed darkness, and each step saw me doing something I previously believed I was never capable of. I believed redemption and healing was beyond me.

I learned I had to take responsibility for my actions in order to heal, and to DECIDE to become a better man. 
I see so much of myself in Dalinar that I was brought near to tears by his story, I NEEDED him to be redeemed as I have been and am being.

I resonate so much with the Bondsmiths as an order and Dalinar as an individual that, once we've seen all 5 oaths (because I want to make sure I really do understand the order) I'll probably be getting their symbol as a tattoo. 

Edited by bo.montier
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I felt the Evi arc was badly written. Dalinar's emotions were muddled throughout which is understandable since he was under influence of a unmade. The love never came across clearly bar certain throw away sentences. I thought Evi was quite naive thinking she can play high politics just by being good natured and also stupid bringing her kids to a active war zone. The 'love' doesn't really explain away those bad decisions for me. The moment she appeared in war camps, I knew her death was coming soon and that took away most of surprise and shock away. 

Edited by TequilaJack
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10 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

While I love and agree with a lot of your post, I do disagree with the part I've underlined.  I think the flashbacks that we experienced of Dalinar's past with Evi were purposefully chosen to deliver maximum emotional impact, the most impactful and darkest moments of their relationship.  We were supposed to get the impression that Dalinar treated Evi and his family 100% like garbage, as this mirrors the mental anguish and self-recrimination that Dalinar himself goes through by being exposed to these memories.  I don't think this was at all the full picture though, and viewing it as such fits with Dalinar's self-flagellating way of viewing himself.  I anything, I think Evi hated everything about Alethi society that wasn't Dalinar and her immediate family.  Her day to day life was probably quite pleasant and content though, especially as it related to her interactions with Dalinar.

Dalinar and Evi clearly had an affection for one another.  Dalinar thought very highly of Evi and beat himself up over how he didn't deserve her.  The fact that Dalinar felt an overwhelming sense of shame after raising his voice to Evi and slamming the door after an argument, and Evi was burning prayers to the divine after the same argument indicates to me that they likely had a relatively conflict-free relationship.  If they had an even remotely acrimonious relationship, a little argument + slammed door shouldn't be emotionally impacting either of them to the degree that it did.

I think we need to look at the secondary evidence.  People don't notice Dalinar becoming a 100% different person after the events with Nightwatcher/Cultivation.  Even Jasnah/Adolin/Renarin don't note an extreme personality change.  They notice the drunkenness receding, but that's usually about it.  Overall, I think "Dalinar the General" (after Adolin's birth) personality-wise was extremely similar to the Dalinar we have now.  A little emotionally distant due to the demands of his position, but largely loved by his troops, admired by his children, loved by his spouse etc.  He even went to incredible lengths to allow the Rift to surrender before the battle, but fate and being nearly 100% possessed by The Thrill after his near death experience betrayed his efforts at redemption.  At his core though I think we can read between the lines that Dalinar and Evi were largely happy with one another.

I disagree the flashbacks were chosen not to be representative of the Dalinar/Evi relationship. I personally believe they were chosen to show us exactly what their relationship has been like as WoK told a much different tale... Back before we read OB, we were told Dalinar loved Evi, we were told how he pursued her for three years, we were told of how perfect she was for him and we, the readers, came to expect to read the unfolding a magnificent love. Some even argued Evi was Dalinar's greatest love, greater than Navani, but he lost her through grief and sorrow.

Ask anyone after having read only WoK/WoR and they will spontaneously answer the same way: "Dalinar loved Evi and Evi loved Dalinar. Their marriage was one made for love.".

The truth was entirely deceiving because what we took as a telling of Dalinar's past life merely was Dalinar trying to fill the holes within his memory. Of course, he must have loved her. Then why is it, the second he starts to remember, the first thing he notes is the absence of love... He remembers lust, he remembers finding her pretty, but he did not remember love.

I thus strongly disagree there was a happy loving side to the Dalinar/Evi relationship we weren't privy to. In fact, I'd argue the happiest most loving side of their life were the months spend before and after Adolin's birth. This very short span of time during which Dalinar was not the Blackthorn, when he was content to just be little Adolin's father and Evi's husband. It was very short lived as Dalinar took the road to Jah Keved shortly after where he forgotten all about his family. He didn't bother to visit them for over a year, he never bothered to answer to Evi's spanreed after Renarin's birth. Navani herself was appalled at Dalinar neve visiting, so she encouraged Evi to take the road to Jah Keved and to join her husband onto the battlefield.

She was utterly miserable onto those battlefields. It is not once hinted the flashbacks we have gotten did not reflect reality: Evi hated it there, but it was the only way she could be with Dalinar, it was the only way she could be near young Adolin. Of course, nothing is said of her time in Kholinar, with young Renarin, but knowing how Renarin spent years crying his heart out over a father whom would never come to visit, I doubt those moments were pleasant. Even if they were, they were the moments she spent away from Dalinar.

Shortly before Evi died, she urged Dalinar to leave the battlefield and he made a promise, the promise of a trip, free of battle, for them, though he excluded Renarin out of the equation. She was pleased, finally they were to be out of the battlefield, finally they were to be a family. This is what she wanted, this is what she yearned for and this is what her life never given her.

Hence, I do believe Dalinar never loved Evi, he treated her as an annoyance during most flashbacks and if he came to appreciate her efforts, he never felt strongly for her. Still, she remained his wife. She remained the one, the only, human being whom believed he may be "more" than just the Blackthorn. The only human being who saw more into him than a bloody tool. Hence, when his rage kills her, the guilt he feels is huge: not because he loved her, but because his anger turned out killing the one and only individual whom thought he wasn't a cold-heart beast. Weren't those Dalinar's words when Adolin is born? Hope for the boy to grow up not having his heart turn into stone, unable to love and feel?

On the side note, the original flashback, the one where Dalinar burned the prayer, had him openly say the only feelings he had for Evi were negative, but it was edited. Probably because readers thought it was too heavy. I personally needed no slamming doors as not all unhappy relationships involve door slamming nor yelling. Evi submitted herself to Dalinar, to his way of life and nothing indicate within those flashbacks she was happy about it.

Dalinar did change: Adolin notes of it. Back in WoK, Adolin states his father changed following his uncle's death. Why he was yearning for the man he once was to be back, it is hard to say, though in retrospective, Adolin might have been yearning for the man his father was in Jah Keved. His hero. From what we could see, everyone took Dalinar drinking himself down as a reaction to Evi's death: they pitied him. And the boys... The boys were raised to worship their father, well, Adolin was raised this way. Renarin was rejected so often, he came to side with his father to gain acceptance.

I thus do not find there are any lines in between which we can read love and a happy life for Dalinar and Evi: their marriage was a failure done for convenience out of despair for Evi. 

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Subvisual Haze as additional support for this, note that Navani saw Dalinar and Evi has having a really solid relationship, one which she characterizes as “love.” (I think she’s wrong in that regard, but nevertheless that was her perception.) We also have a WoB that while Navani isn’t the most reliable, because good thoughts about Evi are against her interest, she’s being pretty truthful when she relates them. The “beast” that was the Blackthorn wasn’t what people saw in his marriage; he wasn’t a beast to his wife. (I think your point about how upset they both were about an argument with yelling and a slammed door is a really good one. That clearly wasn’t a common occurrence in their relationship.)

To be fair, Navani hardly ever saw Dalinar/Evi together as the only time they ever spent together was on the battlefield. She also saw Dalinar reject Renarin: they all saw Dalinar rejecting Renarin, so clearly Navani is biased: she loved Dalinar, she never paid attention to the bad side of him. It may also be she was convincing herself Dalinar must have loved Evi for agreeing to marry her. Dalinar's own viewpoint and recollection of his feelings once he recovers his memories are he never loved his wife, but it may be his attitude, during the calmer period of his life, made others think he must have loved her. Gavilar seemed to think Dalinar is drinking himself out because he misses Evi: Dalinar is adamant he is not missing her, but he feels guilty, for her death. Her and the children whom died with her. One of the screaming children in his head is (or sounds like) Adolin, I wondered about this.

One need not love to feel guilt and one need not to slam doors do be displeased in an union. Evi also did not have the personality for door slamming: she was much like Adolin. When rebuffed, she worked harder to do better.

1 hour ago, TequilaJack said:

I felt the Evi arc was badly written. Dalinar's emotions were muddled throughout which is understandable since he was under influence of a unmade. The love never came across clearly bar certain throw away sentences. I thought Evi was quite naive thinking she can play high politics just by being good natured and also stupid bringing her kids to a active war zone. The 'love' doesn't really explain away those bad decisions for me. The moment she appeared in war camps, I knew her death was coming soon and that took away most of surprise and shock away. 

Who's the stupider? The woman whom thought a father ought to meet his second son, whom worried over Adolin forgetting his father? She's stupider than the man whom never bothered himself with his family? We can argue all day long as to how smart it was for Evi to bring the kids to a warcamp, but she would have never saw fit to do it had her husband been paying any attention to his family. Little Adolin was even scared of his father! He couldn't recognize him...

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2 minutes ago, maxal said:

She's stupider than the man whom never bothered himself with his family? We can argue all day long as to how smart it was for Evi to bring the kids to a warcamp, but she would have never saw fit to do it had her husband been paying any attention to his family. Little Adolin was even scared of his father! He couldn't recognize him...

 

It wasn't a marriage out of love. It was a political transaction to be honest. Did they eventually grow to love each other? Yes, but never did come across powerfully. 

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23 hours ago, Vissy said:

To clarify, while I did enjoy Dalinar's arc, reading it all did feel genuinely disturbing to me. It made me genuinely dislike Dalinar for the first time. I think I'm back to sort-of liking him again, but I almost wish he wasn't such a good Bondsmith. 

It was indeed disturbing to read, I remember a WoB where Brandon said OB would be hard to read for Dalinar fans. OB truly made me realize why it was meant to be book 5, and then as an exception was moved to book3. Can you imagine reading OB flashbacks as book 1 or 2? Dalinar would be one of the most hated protagonists ever. 

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Subvisual Haze as additional support for this, note that Navani saw Dalinar and Evi has having a really solid relationship, one which she characterizes as “love.” (I think she’s wrong in that regard, but nevertheless that was her perception.) We also have a WoB that while Navani isn’t the most reliable, because good thoughts about Evi are against her interest, she’s being pretty truthful when she relates them. The “beast” that was the Blackthorn wasn’t what people saw in his marriage; he wasn’t a beast to his wife. (I think your point about how upset they both were about an argument with yelling and a slammed door is a really good one. That clearly wasn’t a common occurrence in their relationship.)

This was a good reminder of how Navani thought Evi was viewed by the alethi. Its an interesting contrast. Evi said she was mocked for not been cutting or trampling others verbally, while Navani says Evi was loved by all by her sweetness. Wonder if one of them was grossly skewed, or if simply Evi focused on the bad, which Navani never saw.

Personally, I think everyone in the Rift did stupid decisions, comparing who was smarter is an exercise in futility as they all were very dumb. Tanavan was given yet ANOTHER chance to yield, save his people and come away as a highprince and one of the most influential people in Alethkar, he tossed it aside for pride. Evi conviced Dalinar to show mercy, Tanavan betrayed him and Evi thought Dalinar was killed, did she seriously expect honor from the Rift after that or the Blackthorn to show mercy? Dalinar killed the messengers without hearing them and walked into the original trap that almost killed them, wouldn't it be better to hear the message then kill them? Sadeas was just plain old Sadeas. In summary, everyone was stupid in the Rift, just because one was stupider than the other, doesn't mean anyone made a smart decision. 

Edited by WhiteLeeopard
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  • 1 month later...

I'm quite surprised after reading a good chunk of these comments. I knew Evi would die but I had hoped it would be more like a lesser evil choice that he would have to make, not something that happened accidentally. That being said, maybe I'm the weird one here but I was pissed at Evi. I thought she deserved to die. She was stupid and ineffective. 2 things are of issue here.

1. The monster is part of who Dalinar was at the time. It always bothers me when someone can't accept a person for who they are and try to change a part of them hoping to only keep the parts of that person that they like. I find it incredibly selfish of her. She leaves her homeland and happens upon a High Prince whom she decides to marry and can't handle everything that he is. That's her problem. 

2. The betrayal that was committed upon Dalinar was horrendous. Dalinar was trying to "satiate" Evi in the first place. (which is part of why i'm pissed at Evi. She made him feel bad for his bloodlust and then gutted him into saving lives. When he does do it, he gets betrayed/massacred and when he response in the only appropriate way, she goes and gets herself caught. Stupid.) When he's betrayed it's obvious he needs to at least make Tanalan pay significantly for his idiocy. The man was an idiot in the first place for claiming that "his father's sword wasn't taken through 'honour'". He's got a stupid personal vendetta against Dalinar and Dalinar's trying to do the honest thing to stop the death and he is responded in kind with betrayal and the death of his men. Any person should be able to see that retribution is necessary. Instead, Evi get's in the way, sneaks off and dies.

I'm honestly glad Evi died. She didn't accept him for who he was and then got in his way when he had a job he needed to do. 

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28 minutes ago, The Batman said:

I'm quite surprised after reading a good chunk of these comments. I knew Evi would die but I had hoped it would be more like a lesser evil choice that he would have to make, not something that happened accidentally. That being said, maybe I'm the weird one here but I was pissed at Evi. I thought she deserved to die. She was stupid and ineffective. 2 things are of issue here.

1. The monster is part of who Dalinar was at the time. It always bothers me when someone can't accept a person for who they are and try to change a part of them hoping to only keep the parts of that person that they like. I find it incredibly selfish of her. She leaves her homeland and happens upon a High Prince whom she decides to marry and can't handle everything that he is. That's her problem. 

2. The betrayal that was committed upon Dalinar was horrendous. Dalinar was trying to "satiate" Evi in the first place. (which is part of why i'm pissed at Evi. She made him feel bad for his bloodlust and then gutted him into saving lives. When he does do it, he gets betrayed/massacred and when he response in the only appropriate way, she goes and gets herself caught. Stupid.) When he's betrayed it's obvious he needs to at least make Tanalan pay significantly for his idiocy. The man was an idiot in the first place for claiming that "his father's sword wasn't taken through 'honour'". He's got a stupid personal vendetta against Dalinar and Dalinar's trying to do the honest thing to stop the death and he is responded in kind with betrayal and the death of his men. Any person should be able to see that retribution is necessary. Instead, Evi get's in the way, sneaks off and dies.

I'm honestly glad Evi died. She didn't accept him for who he was and then got in his way when he had a job he needed to do. 

Yes, I kind of agree. In general I think everyone at the Rift did very stupid decisions. But Evi is definetely on the list as well for the reasons you listed. Its okay to try to curb some of the worst impulses in a person but you shouldn't be angry/upset at them if you fail. Of course Dalinar was affected by an external source, and if I were a mother I would be majorly pissed at how he treated Renarin. 

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7 hours ago, The Batman said:

She didn't accept him for who he was and then got in his way when he had a job he needed to do.

My view of this is that she saw the good (or at least the compassion) in Dalinar, and tried to encourage it since his default was murder everyone. She got upset because in her mind she was failing (based off her personality, I assume she blamed herself rather than Dalinar for this). The parley *was* a good idea, but Tanalan betrayed the parley. Just because we know that he did betray it, doesn't mean it wasn't the best idea prior (i.e. don't fall into Results Oriented Thinking). From there, Evi was naive in attempting to talk again with Tanalan, which was definitely a flaw of hers but well within her established character. Furthermore, Dalinar setting fire to the "safe" room (which was now the prison) was an unfortunate tragedy due to outdated information on Dalinar's part.

For the story we have, Dalinar having killed Evi through an accident is the only way him being the cause of her death can allow us as readers and the characters in the book to forgive him for it. If Dalinar had purposefully killed Evi, the characters in the book would never forgive him. If Dalinar *didn't* kill Evi, i.e. if she had been a hostage and killed in front of Dalinar by Tanalan or someone else, the impact wouldn't have been as great to Dalinar. Dalinar killing Evi due to the Thrill was the last straw for Dalinar to commit to throwing off his murderous ways, just like Evi wanted. Because Dalinar *did* love Evi. They fought, and their marriage wasn't perfect, but he did love her.

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4 hours ago, Govir said:

Because Dalinar *did* love Evi. They fought, and their marriage wasn't perfect, but he did love her

I'm actually not sure if Dalinar loved Evi. He felt responsible for her, he was fond of her, he loved the firstborn she bore him from the moment he was born, he wanted her to be happy as he thought he should be a good husband. She loved him because Evi was built to love. Did Dalinar love Evi? I honestly don't know. I'm not saying he didn't love her, just that I'm not sure I can draw a conclusion from what I saw on OB. 

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I would note that Dalinar's guilt doesn't seem to be just for killing Evi. In OB he's tormented by all of his victims- killing Evi just forced him to confront what his bloodlust had turned him into. Had she not died in the fires of Rathelas he would not have been broken by the massacre, as per Stalin's Rule: A death is a tragedy, but a million deaths is just a statistic...

The best way to bring that out would be for Dalinar to commit what even the Alethi would call a war crime, and be shown, by killing Evi whilst doing that, the true horror of all his actions. A straight killing (as expected by the OP) could be psychologically separated from his general actions. He could have just viewed it as 'bloodlust going too far'. It's the association between his war-persona and killing Evi that saved him.

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