[OB] Unpopular Opinion: Evi's death was underwhelming

[TheDoomsday]

Go ahead and critisize me, but I feel like her death was hyped up way too much.

We all knew he killed her, from the start of the book. It was obvious. What I was waiting for was for Brandon to make Dalinar kill her in a way that would actually shake me to the core. Yet, he accidentally burns her during a raid. So?

I think I might be heartless, but it wasn't dramatic enough for me. It needed more for what it was hyped to be. Way more.

As I said, an unpopular opinion.

[Seize]

I disagree but I understand where you're coming from because I too was expecting something spectacular and striking, and the revelation kind of left me hollow.

But I feel as if that was the point. Her death was frustratingly almost accidental, and IMO that's what makes it all the more tragic and painful. It was the product of just another war decision. It highlights the fact that it is Dalinar's usual bloodthirst and eagerness to crush his enemies that killed her, both psychologically and literally.

[Aleksiel]

Evi's death was underwhelming for me, too, but for a different reason. She died doing something stupid that would have achieved about nothing. Best case scenario Evi was hostage returned for the promise to not burn down the city, which Dalinar and Sadeas could have still burned down once they have her back and Evi would have spend the rest of her life locked under guard to not mess another plan. 

[Ailvara]

The main reason I loved it is that I knew what to expect and still didn't realize it happened at the moment it actually did. It was like being one step ahead of the story all the time only to find out that bang! now when it matters I'm actually one step behind, looking behind and stumbling. And then bang! the final blow, it's actually two steps behind and for as long as since the murder of the emissaries. 

[Vissy]

Personally, the Dalinar flashbacks and his downward spiral were disturbing to read. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Vissy

[StormingTexan]

 

4 hours ago, TheDoomsday said:

What I was waiting for was for Brandon to make Dalinar kill her in a way that would actually shake me to the core.

I think this would have been too much. If she say tried to block his advance and he killed her directly that would have been way over the top and seen as unredeemable. It was bad enough she died because of his monstrous rage but can you imagine him trying to explain to Adolin and Renarin that he ran her through with Oathbringer for getting in his way? 

[StrikerEZ]

Everyone else, especially @Seize, already described how I felt about Evi's death pretty well.

I would like to add that I basically knew that Evi was gonna die the entire book. That wasn't really the point though. The point was I was constantly anticipating her death, so the suspense was built up over most of the book. Right when I least expected it, she died. And I felt like this death was far worse than anything else that could've happened to her. It shows just how truly dangerous and bloodthirsty Dalinar was. I can't even imagine what it must've been like in that jail for Evi, watch the fire spread towards her. For me, I didn't really care too much how about the exact details of her death (though I do think they were very impactful); what really mattered was the build-up to her death. It was all about getting us to sympathize with Evi, who we had never seen before in this book, and, even though we knew she was gonna die, it made it all the more painful when she died. As Brandon says, Journey Before Destination.

[maxal]

I am of a different opinion. People have read me criticize several aspects of the books, but this honestly wasn't a story arc which left me disappointed. I thought Evi's death was both heart-breaking, disastrous, gut-wrenching, incredibly terrifying and totally Dalinar's fault. Had he run her through with Oathbringer while being locked into blood rage, it wouldn't have had the same impact as knowing she died, screaming, burning while being locked into a small cell knowing for a fact her husband had turned down Tanalan's messengers as it boils down to this. 

Tanalan sent messengers. Dalinar killed them without hearing what they had to say. He is 100% guilty of having burned Evi: his need for personal revenge was so strong he refused to hear other people's advise telling him his plan as too awful. He refused to hear out what messengers from the offending party had to say. What kind of man does not listen to messengers? What kind of man kills them without hearing them out?

Evi died because of Dalinar's selfishness, madness and bestial instincts: she died because she was wrong about her husband. There was no man within the beast, there was just a cold-heart monster whom once awaken would destroy everything standing in front of him: women, children, civilians. The horror of what Dalinar planned was purely terrifying: he set himself to burn a town because they dare resist to Gavilar's bloody conquest, because they dare attempt to fool him and, more importantly, because they bested him.

Little Evi was a very courageous woman. Here is a girl whom, at 18 years of age, ran away from her sunny and warm Rira, half-way across the known world to seek refuge within the household of the world's worst warlords. Gavilar Kholin praised himself into thinking the Rirans were seeking his protection because they had come to see him as Alethkar's real king. He was wrong. The kids seek his protection because the Kholins were known to be terrible, foes no one crosses twice. Unbeatable. Unbreakable. They gave themselves away to barbarous arrogant monsters whom, in their superiority, never considered the possibility they played by their rules only because whomever they were running away from must have been worst.

Evi gave herself away to the Kholins. She married a monster and yet she did not despair. She tried her best to try to tame the wild beast he was, she tried to encourage him to be a man, not a monster. She sacrificed everything she ever held dear: her life, her happiness, his firstborn son. She gave Adolin away to his blood-thirsty father, she made the boy hero-worship his father. she made him love Dalinar so much he would never second-guess him even when daddy turned into an abusive drunk.

Evi did everything she could to be a perfect Alethi wife: she managed to get rid of her accent, she braided her hair like the Alethi women, she learned to scribe like them (despite being left-handed, how hard must it have been!). She put up so much effort and... she was utterly unhappy, sad and miserable the whole time. She bore her husband's warrior ways, but she hoped, she always hoped he would give them away, he would put the Blade away and come home. He never did. Instead, he told her he would torch the Rift, he would burn down women, children and innocent people just because he was angered.

And she did one of the most courageous action we have ever seen within those books. She stood up to the Blackthorn. No one else would. No one dared trying to stop Dalinar. Gavilar had to cover the affair and to keep Dalinar away from battle afterwards because of how awful his actions were. What was little insignificant Evi going to do?

She ran away to the enemy. Unlike others, I didn't think it makes her an idiot, I think it makes her a desperate courageous woman whom faced with the knowledge of thousand of people being soon burned down to ashes, being soon forced to die in a horrible terrifying manner, tried to do something to prevent it from happening. She might not have known what to expect, she might have thought becoming a hostage would have been enough to stop Dalinar. She however had to know her action would have put her against her husband, would have labelled her a traitor. She had to know her life would become even more miserable afterwards. 

But she was willing to sacrifice it. She sacrificed everything just to warn the Rift, just with the hope of perhaps, perhaps stopping one of the worst war atrocities warlords are able tp produce: mass killing of innocents in horrific pains. Think the World Trade Center, but think it filled with children. This is what Dalinar did. And Evi is the one person, the only person whom try to do something to stop him.

She died for her actions. She died because she couldn't have known her husband would kill the messengers. Or maybe she knew, but she refused to believe the man she always saw in him wouldn't prevail. She believed in him, up until he burned her.

So no, I didn't think it was under-whelming. I thought it was perfectly terrifying and horrific, so horrific I am dying for Adolin to find out about it. If Renarin will probably find a way to excuse his father, I cannot see Adolin not being touched by this knowledge: I hope he will be touched. This would wrap up this arc into such a nice way, but he may never give us the answer we never got...

Whom were Evi and Toh running away from which made them agree to waste their life away with the Kholins? And whom does this Plate belong to?

Edited January 2, 2018 by maxal

[Bort]

Very well said, @maxal.

Your post has hit the nail right on the head, with regards to how I view Evi's death.

[TheDoomsday]

I am glad to read other peoples opinion on the topic. Sometimes it's nice for people to disagree with you xD

[Prelude]

My problem was I just didn’t care about Evi. So there wasn’t the impending dread of her death. I was curious but nothing more.

 

[digitalbusker]

11 hours ago, TheDoomsday said:

Go ahead and critisize me

The definite article in your handle is incongruous and you're still using the default avatar.

Oh, you probably meant about the thing, didn't you.

Hey, you do you. If you feel that way about it, you don't need my blessing, but you have it.

Not that I agree with you, mind. I think if he'd killed her in a more visceral way I would have had a hard time believing he could come back from it. I think the fact that Dalinar wouldn't let himself off the hook for something that he could easily have decided wasn't really his fault is pretty consistent with his character.

That, and everything @maxal said.

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth]

13 hours ago, TheDoomsday said:

Go ahead and critisize me, but I feel like her death was hyped up way too much.

We all knew he killed her, from the start of the book. It was obvious. What I was waiting for was for Brandon to make Dalinar kill her in a way that would actually shake me to the core. Yet, he accidentally burns her during a raid. So?

I think I might be heartless, but it wasn't dramatic enough for me. It needed more for what it was hyped to be. Way more.

As I said, an unpopular opinion.

I think your/our opinion on Evi is kind of the reason why i found her death so impactful. Because everyone reacts to her that way.

Through the whole book Evi is a character that speaks against the casual murdering of the alethi culture.

But they treat her as to stupid and to soft to be taken seriously.

And now even we as the reader, are dissapointet that her death wasn't cruel enough, that her husband didn't betray her even worse.

 

Something she would have never wanted for somebidy else

Edited January 2, 2018 by Shaukan-son-Hasweth

[Steeldancer]

I'm finding OB more impactful each time I read it, this included. 

[Govir]

1 minute ago, Steeldancer said:

I'm finding OB more impactful each time I read it, this included.

I completely agree. I actually understand Moash's motivations the second time through, and it didn't seem so out of left field. (I still dislike the event, but I understand why he did it).

 

As to the topic at hand, Evi's death was perfect for the character that was built up. She was an optimist to her core, and that got her killed. @maxal had good points, but I don't agree with all of them (specifically the ones about how Dalinar and Evi viewed each other).

[Song]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

 

Whom were Evi and Toh running away from which made them agree to waste their life away with the Kholins? And whom does this Plate belong to?

This is a great question! I wonder if Toh will make an appearance in future books. He is living in Herdaz from memory?

As much as it broke my heart I thought the death was done so well. Dalinar deliberately put that barrel in the cave because that is where he thought T's family were hiding.  Dalinar was willing to kill innocents for his revenge and he did, but it turned out to be his wife.

 

[Nathrangking]

While I agree that in some ways that to a certain extent there is an anti-climactic feel to the way in which Evi dies it is in many ways a more powerful statement as to the psychological state which drove Dalinar to do what he did. Brandon could have painted a visceral scene of blood lust and carnage. Dalinar could have brutally killed her and for a moment it would have shocked him and the audience. He would have fallen as others have pointed out into a funk which would have made him irredeemable. He might not even have cared. To him it may simply have become a casualty of war. In making it subtler and less graphic he can descend into his own rabbit hole of despair and darkness. He realizes that this was not a casualty of war or even an unavoidable death. The force of his own brutality is given the force necessary to tear into both him and us. it becomes the weight which we all must bear. Simple violence would simply not have that kind of power.

[MonsterMetroid]

On 1/2/2018 at 2:41 AM, TheDoomsday said:

Go ahead and critisize me, but I feel like her death was hyped up way too much.

We all knew he killed her, from the start of the book. It was obvious. What I was waiting for was for Brandon to make Dalinar kill her in a way that would actually shake me to the core. Yet, he accidentally burns her during a raid. So?

I think I might be heartless, but it wasn't dramatic enough for me. It needed more for what it was hyped to be. Way more.

As I said, an unpopular opinion.

Yeah this is tough... I kind of agree with you because she died off screen basically. However if brandon Did describe her burning and stuff that would be way too much for me I think and kind of distastful/traumatic so yeah there is a bit of a catch 22 there but I know what you mean.

To me it was more of a psychological horror imagining what it was like for dalinar and for her to probably hear her husbands voice... then the next second be burning...

[Kaleid]

IMHO, her death is so tragic precisely because it was so underwhelming.

 

She won't be remembered by history beyond a footnote to the greatness of her husband, brother in law and sons. Hell, Navani will likely be better remembered as Dalinar's wife than she will. However, she basically saved the world by giving the Blackthorn a conscience. Otherwise, Odium's champion WOULD have been Dalinar, and the world woulda been Preeeetty Screwed.

[bo.montier]

On 1/2/2018 at 7:19 AM, Vissy said:

Personally, the Dalinar flashbacks and his downward spiral were disturbing to read. 

I agree completely, which is why they worked so well for me. 

The point of Evi's arc in the book was what its reveal did to Dalinar. As he remembered more and more he broke, more and more. The manner of her death was less important than the fact that HE was responsible. I think it had to be something he did in blind rage, all unknowing, because that was what he was becoming, pure rage, with no redeeming qualities, the essence of Odium. He killed his own soldiers in battle because of his carelessness, he almost attacked his brother, whom he idolized, and finally, he kills his wife, because his rage cannot be sated...

Man, that's just so intense to me. I don't care about Evi, personally, I care about her in relation to Dalinar. The impact these memories had on Dalinar are difficult to overstate, in my opinion, and his arc was amazing to read.

Edited January 3, 2018 by bo.montier

[Devout Pathian]

3 hours ago, Kaleid said:

However, she basically saved the world by giving the Blackthorn a conscience.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.  I love Evi and she did change Dalinar.  One thing I find sad is that Dalinar currently is so much better for Evi than he was.  Dalinar and Evi are perfect for each other now, but she’s dead, and that’s heartbreaking.

I agree with @maxal.  The way she described Evi’s courage is so beautiful.

Another point I love Dalinar.  He isn’t my favorite, but I’ve loved him since WoK.  He is a monster in his flashbacks and I was so intrigued by his story.  I needed to know why he changed.  However, even though I continued to love him, if he had physically killed Evi with Oathbringer (or another means) I would hate him forever.  He is responsible for her death and the death of everyone at the Rift.  The fact that he was willing to let the people escape makes him redeemable, even if by the time he made that decision it was too late and everyone died.  

[TheDoomsday]

4 hours ago, Kaleid said:

IMHO, her death is so tragic precisely because it was so underwhelming.

 

She won't be remembered by history beyond a footnote to the greatness of her husband, brother in law and sons. Hell, Navani will likely be better remembered as Dalinar's wife than she will. However, she basically saved the world by giving the Blackthorn a conscience. Otherwise, Odium's champion WOULD have been Dalinar, and the world woulda been Preeeetty Screwed.

Speaking of that, I honestly expected him to submit to Odium. I was surprised, but pleased, when he didn't.

 

At the start of the book I actually thought Renarin would be the champion for some obscure reason. Most of my theories in these books have almost no evidence to back them up, but that's just the fun of reading xD

[Devout Pathian]

12 minutes ago, TheDoomsday said:

At the start of the book I actually thought Renarin would be the champion for some obscure reason. Most of my theories in these books have almost no evidence to back them up, but that's just the fun of reading xD

I didn’t think Renarin would be the champion, but I agree a lot of my theories don’t have too much evidence or none at all.  Agreed that it makes reading fun.

[Fulminato]

On 2/1/2018 at 5:26 PM, maxal said:

Evi died because of Dalinar's selfishness, madness and bestial instincts: she died because she was wrong about her husband. There was no man within the beast, there was just a cold-heart monster whom once awaken would destroy everything standing in front of him: women, children, civilians. The horror of what Dalinar planned was purely terrifying: he set himself to burn a town because they dare resist to Gavilar's bloody conquest, because they dare attempt to fool him and, more importantly, because they bested him.

THIS WILL BE YOUR BOON. I WILL NOT MAKE OF YOU THE MAN YOU CAN BECOME. I WILL NOT GIVE YOU THE APTITUDE, OR THE STRENGTH, NOR WILL I TAKE FROM YOU YOUR COMPULSIONS. BUT I WILL GIVE YOU … A PRUNING. A CAREFUL EXCISION TO LET YOU GROW. THE COST WILL BE HIGH.

oathbringer chapter 114 "the cost"

if dalinar was real only the bloodthristy beast the cultivation works don't changed him. yes the young dalinar was a addicted pitless killer, his aging don't had change him realy much, but...

- Dalinar spare Tanalan's son, mercy is a man attribute and a true beast had simply killed mother and son.

- he start to ran for kill his brother in the mad lust of battle, but he stop himself a brief after, dalinar was aghast of his action, and that day he vow to himself to never sought his brother throne, a pure beast had simply killed gavilar.

- evi's death drove him insane, he hear the same scream szeth hear, because both feel that deaths on their shoulder, deaths avoidable if they were different person, remorse isn't the mark of a beast

- he ask to the nightwatcher 'forgiveness'... and after cultivation tell to him the remove of all evi memory "Dalinar squeezed his eyes shut. Evi … He had never deserved her."

Evi was right, inside dalinar lie a seed of man, it is real a tragedy she needed to die for blossom it and put dalinar in the road of redemption,

Edited January 3, 2018 by Fulminato

[Vissy]

2 hours ago, bo.montier said:

I agree completely, which is why they worked so well for me. 

The point of Evi's arc in the book was what its reveal did to Dalinar. As he remembered more and more he broke, more and more. The manner of her death was less important than the fact that HE was responsible. I think it had to be something he did in blind rage, all unknowing, because that was what he was becoming, pure rage, with no redeeming qualities, the essence of Odium. He killed his own soldiers in battle because of his carelessness, he almost attacked his brother, whom he idolized, and finally, he kills his wife, because his rage cannot be sated...

Man, that's just so intense to me. I don't care about Evi, personally, I care about her in relation to Dalinar. The impact these memories had on Dalinar are difficult to overstate, in my opinion, and his arc was amazing to read.

To clarify, while I did enjoy Dalinar's arc, reading it all did feel genuinely disturbing to me. It made me genuinely dislike Dalinar for the first time. I think I'm back to sort-of liking him again, but I almost wish he wasn't such a good Bondsmith.