shawnhargreaves

[OB] What makes Windrunning louder than Lightweaving?

19 posts in this topic

In Kholinar, while surrounded by corrupted spren, we observe that Kaladin draws screamers as soon as he attempts to use his powers, yet Shallan is able to lightweave to her heart's content with no repercussions.  Why this difference?

The characters explain this as her magic somehow being 'quieter' than his, but that's a "just because" rationale rather than proper explanation.  This observed difference seems like a symptom of something more fundamental and perhaps informative about the nature of these magic systems.

Ideas:

1.  We know that different orders of Surgebinders are aligned with varying blends of Honor vs. Cultivation.  Perhaps the screaming spren are more sensitive to Honor than Cultivation?

2.  Related - are the screamers corrupted windspren?  Perhaps that is why they pick up more easily on Windrunning.  If so, would corrupted creationspren have been able to sense Shallan?

3.  I subscribe to the theory that surges can have different effects in the physical, cognitive, and spiritual realms.  Perhaps the screamers pick up more easily on physical effects, like Kaladin is using, while Shallan's lightweaving is more cognitive or spiritual in nature?  (I would have guessed it was primarily cognitive, but Stormlight Ars Arcanum says it has a major spiritual component).

 

On a slightly different note: Shallan makes detailed observations of which kinds of spren have been corrupted vs. which are unchanged.  I noticed a pattern here: it appears to be the spren of negative emotions which are corrupted: fearspren, painspren, hungerspren, etc.  Those of more positive emotions (anticipationspren, gloryspren) are unchanged.  Does this indicate a limitation on Sja-anat's powers?  Perhaps she can only change spren which are in some way Connected to herself.  In which case, her recent ability to corrupt Radiant spren (which we are told has not happened before) might be an even bigger sign than I'd previously realized that Sja-anat is changing?

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My theory is that it's because Shallan is one oath ahead of Kaladin. It influences the efficiency of stormlight use, so maybe it reduces leaks that can be spotted or something like this. 

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I'm pretty sure it was a corrupted glory spren that brought Shallan a message in Shadesmar.

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2 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

In Kholinar, while surrounded by corrupted spren, we observe that Kaladin draws screamers as soon as he attempts to use his powers, yet Shallan is able to lightweave to her heart's content with no repercussions.  Why this difference?

The characters explain this as her magic somehow being 'quieter' than his, but that's a "just because" rationale rather than proper explanation.  This observed difference seems like a symptom of something more fundamental and perhaps informative about the nature of these magic systems.

Ideas:

1.  We know that different orders of Surgebinders are aligned with varying blends of Honor vs. Cultivation.  Perhaps the screaming spren are more sensitive to Honor than Cultivation?

2.  Related - are the screamers corrupted windspren?  Perhaps that is why they pick up more easily on Windrunning.  If so, would corrupted creationspren have been able to sense Shallan?

3.  I subscribe to the theory that surges can have different effects in the physical, cognitive, and spiritual realms.  Perhaps the screamers pick up more easily on physical effects, like Kaladin is using, while Shallan's lightweaving is more cognitive or spiritual in nature?  (I would have guessed it was primarily cognitive, but Stormlight Ars Arcanum says it has a major spiritual component).

 

On a slightly different note: Shallan makes detailed observations of which kinds of spren have been corrupted vs. which are unchanged.  I noticed a pattern here: it appears to be the spren of negative emotions which are corrupted: fearspren, painspren, hungerspren, etc.  Those of more positive emotions (anticipationspren, gloryspren) are unchanged.  Does this indicate a limitation on Sja-anat's powers?  Perhaps she can only change spren which are in some way Connected to herself.  In which case, her recent ability to corrupt Radiant spren (which we are told has not happened before) might be an even bigger sign than I'd previously realized that Sja-anat is changing?

There are corrupted Gloryspren but Hungerspren didn't seem to be corrupted. That is what puzzled Shallan. 

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Something else to think about is that the screamers could also detect when some fabrials were being used. They could sense spanreeds and soulcasters.

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I assumed it was because Lightweaving uses much less stormlight.

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I assume different types of surgebinding is "louder" then others. Lightweaving seems like it would need to be harder to detect to be affective. I'm sure if Shallan created illusions right near the screamer spren they could notice. 

 

Kinda like in Mistborn

Spoiler

Allomantic pulses can be muffled with copper. 

 

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I was thinking it's because Lashings affect something external to the person, while Lightweaving doesn't really.  Holding Stormlight doesn't attract the screamers, but Lashing even a small rock does.  Lightweaving isn't affecting anything physical (well, light, but that's basically massless).

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7 minutes ago, Song said:

I assumed it was because Lightweaving uses much less stormlight.

This is what I believe as well. Shallan can power an illusion with a single sphere for a while, although I don't remember the exact length of time. Lashings seem to use Stormlight far more quickly. 

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16 minutes ago, RShara said:

Lightweaving isn't affecting anything physical (well, light, but that's basically massless).

I don't think we know for sure whether lightweaving actually affects light, or the perceptions of those who later view that light?  If cameras existed in Roshar, what would a photo of Shallan's lightweaving show?  (if it was viewed later on, once the lightweaving was no longer active, so the perception of the person viewing the photo would not be affected).

There seems to be quite a bit of quantum mechanical stuff going on with surgebinding (eg. the ardents who experiment with recording observations of a spren in WoK) and the distinction between actual state of reality vs. making observations of that state is an important (although surprisingly subtle) aspect of that branch of physics.

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Kinetic Investure creates a waveform, as seen in Mistborn with Allomantic bronze. Since Lightweaving is the manipulation of waveforms, and for the illusions to work they need to be hard to see through, it makes sense that lightweavers would instinctively (or perhaps the magic does it automatically) use their lightweaving as a way of mimicking Allomantic copper. I think that if Shallan knew the mechanics behind it, she could theoretically use it to hide other peoples Investure usage too.

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1 hour ago, kenod said:

Kinetic Investure creates a waveform, as seen in Mistborn with Allomantic bronze. Since Lightweaving is the manipulation of waveforms, and for the illusions to work they need to be hard to see through, it makes sense that lightweavers would instinctively (or perhaps the magic does it automatically) use their lightweaving as a way of mimicking Allomantic copper. I think that if Shallan knew the mechanics behind it, she could theoretically use it to hide other peoples Investure usage too.

I like this one since Shallan can suppress her own stormlight glow as well.

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@Shawn Hargreaves

So first of all, there's a difference between corrupted spren via Sja-anat, and voidspren. I took the screamers to be some kind of void-spren which we haven't really met yet. 

Also somewhere in the clippets of 'Mythica' we hear that Sja-anat can only affect the children of honor. I would quote this but I am many miles from my copy of OB currently. You may be on to something with the honor-cultivation correlation, although I'm not sure how well that works with my idea of the screamers being voidspren.

On 12/30/2017 at 11:19 AM, Ailvara said:

My theory is that it's because Shallan is one oath ahead of Kaladin. It influences the efficiency of stormlight use, so maybe it reduces leaks that can be spotted or something like this. 

Is she? I thought they were both on their third ideal due to the fact that we haven't seen anyone manifest shardplate yet, which I'm fairly certain is a benefit of the fourth ideal. 

On 12/30/2017 at 2:33 PM, shawnhargreaves said:

I don't think we know for sure whether lightweaving actually affects light, or the perceptions of those who later view that light?  If cameras existed in Roshar, what would a photo of Shallan's lightweaving show?  (if it was viewed later on, once the lightweaving was no longer active, so the perception of the person viewing the photo would not be affected).

Lightweaving: The surge of light, sound, and various wave-forms. - Ars Arcanum

If one were able to influence and create wave-forms; one would be creating a true manifestation of said wave-form. There would be true light where shallon makes an illusion and I believe that is a far cry from influencing the perception of the people viewing her illusions. That's more along the lines of creating hallucinations than controlling wave forms. 

Mini quote: @RShara

Light is basically massless? Do wave forms carry mass? Genuine curousity here as I thought a wave is kind of the opposite of a particle. Or rather waves cannot exist without particles to carry them? 

Edited by TheMediocreMind
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5 minutes ago, TheMediocreMind said:

Light is basically massless? Do wave forms carry mass? Genuine curousity here as I thought a wave is kind of the opposite of a particle. Or rather waves cannot exist without particles to carry them? 

Light, like other small particles (electrons) are weird in that they are both particles and waves according to quantum mechanics. This video offers a good explanation:

 

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On 12/30/2017 at 0:44 PM, shawnhargreaves said:

Ideas:

1.  We know that different orders of Surgebinders are aligned with varying blends of Honor vs. Cultivation.  Perhaps the screaming spren are more sensitive to Honor than Cultivation?

2.  Related - are the screamers corrupted windspren?  Perhaps that is why they pick up more easily on Windrunning.  If so, would corrupted creationspren have been able to sense Shallan?

3.  I subscribe to the theory that surges can have different effects in the physical, cognitive, and spiritual realms.  Perhaps the screamers pick up more easily on physical effects, like Kaladin is using, while Shallan's lightweaving is more cognitive or spiritual in nature?  (I would have guessed it was primarily cognitive, but Stormlight Ars Arcanum says it has a major spiritual component).

I really like these ideas, but I suspect that the answer is that being 'loud' is just a quality of Windrunners.  Every time they level up, cool glyphs frost into existence around them.  No other order that we have seen has this effect associated with them (we haven't seen them all by any means, but those we have seen are 'quieter').  I can't explain why this is the case, only point out the fact that Windrunners are more obvious in a lot of ways.

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11 hours ago, kenod said:

Light, like other small particles (electrons) are weird in that they are both particles and waves according to quantum mechanics. This video offers a good explanation:

I didn't want to get into the whole mass/energy/momentum/gravity issues relating to photons.  So, "basically" massless. Massless for all intents and purposes of this discussion :)

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@TheMediocreMind Shallan is at her fourth Ideal (or Truth, you get the point), this is confirmed.  The fact that she hasn't made Shardplate is of course of note, but irrelevant.  Wob:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/156-words-of-radiance-lexington-signing/#e2845

At the end of WoR, Shallan was one step ahead of Kaladin, who was at three.  It's been assumed that her three Truths have been

1) I am terrified

2) I killed my father

3)I killed my mother.

 

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I assumed it had to do with the, to use an allomantic term, "pulse" associated with lashings compared to lightweaving. 

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@Raykoda

Oh, I wasn't aware of that WoB, thanks for filling me in :) but doesn't that mean that she should have spoken four truths instead of three?

Edit: I just saw the thread on Shallon and her Shardplate. Found the answer to my question there

Edited by TheMediocreMind
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