[OB] Taln's brief moment of lucid thought

[scottos]

I thought it was interesting that when Dalinar combined the three realms for a short period of time,  Taln was lucid. Then when they separated Taln lost his mind again. Was this just a coincidence or is the declining sanity of the heralds caused by something broken across the three realms?

[Brgst13]

I suspect that was not coincidence.  Dalinar Ascended at that point and held Honor's power to at least some extent.  We know that the Heralds could draw Stormlight directly from Honor, and that Stormlight can heal.  I suspect that Taln's Connection to Honor was restored temporarily, and enabled him to be temporarily healed from his madness.

[Kaleid]

Wow, I somehow completely missed that, good catch.

So - is the madness of the heralds somehow linked to the three realms? Is Damnantion potentially not in the physical realm?

[Melovespie]

And in this brief moment of lucidity he expressed joy for having suffered for so long, giving the humans a chance to live free of Desolations. He's too good for us.

[Subvisual Haze]

49 minutes ago, Kaleid said:

Wow, I somehow completely missed that, good catch.

So - is the madness of the heralds somehow linked to the three realms? Is Damnantion potentially not in the physical realm?

I assumed it was in Braize's Cognitive Realm.  Torturing of their minds.

The Heralds have been so suffused with Investiture and have been "killed" so many times that they're probably closer to spren than humans.  Presumably their true selves are buried somewhere deep in the spiritual realm though, and combining the realms allowed Taln's spirit to temporarily peak through his broken mind.  Or like Nohadon said in Dalinar's vision:

Quote

“All things exist in three realms, Dalinar,” Nohadon said. “The Physical: what you are now. The Cognitive: what you see yourself as being. The Spiritual: the perfect you, the person beyond pain, and error, and uncertainty.” 

 

[Elerubard]

1 hour ago, Kaleid said:

Wow, I somehow completely missed that, good catch.

So - is the madness of the heralds somehow linked to the three realms? Is Damnantion potentially not in the physical realm?

The insanity is linked to them being tortured for centuries at a time, millenia in Taln's case. Damnation is explicitly Braize, though it wouldn't surprise me if the Heralds get thrown into Shadesmar when they go there. Seems like you could be more creative with that kind of evil in a more malleable plane.

[NotBurtReynolds]

So I'm sure someone more schooled in Realmatic Theory can give you a better technical explanation , but I took it as such:

Taln is completely broken because his Spirit Web is an absolute shambles. Think about the 'broken' people who become Knights Radiant. They have cracks in their Spirit Web that are then 'filled in' by their bond. But those are just cracks After 4,500 continuous years of torture, that was preceded by Adonalsium knows how many hundreds and thousands years before the breaking of the Oathpact, Taln's Spirit Web must look like a single spider web stretched around a skyscraper...Most ends snapped and frayed, the entire thing held together by just a few connections. All the Heralds are crazy because of the torture they endured, but Taln is a different kettle of cremlings. But then Dalinar reformed Honor's perpendicularity which flooded Taln's SW, filling in all the gaps for a time allowing him his time of lucidity. 

   

[Heir of the Void]

8 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Taln is completely broken because his Spirit Web is an absolute shambles.

I'm not sure there's any reason to assume there has to be a magical/Realmatic explanation for his insanity. He was tortured by (functional) demons for 4,500 years; just the isolation from that span of time would be maddening, let alone the actual pain.

That said, Jezerian seemed nonfunctional in the prologue and when Moash/Vyre killed him, but at least lucid in the predule after they agreed to break the Oathpact. It seems like there may have been something that caused a degregation in his and the other herald's mental states.

Has anyone considered if the Shattering of Honor might have played a role in all of this?

[NotBurtReynolds]

10 minutes ago, Heir of the Void said:

I'm not sure there's any reason to assume there has to be a magical/Realmatic explanation for his insanity. He was tortured by (functional) demons for 4,500 years; just the isolation from that span of time would be maddening, let alone the actual pain.

I don't think you can separate insanity from a person's SW. If you are insane, your SW is cracked. Taln is extra insane, therefore his SW must be extra cracked. Which is all I was saying. His SW was such a massive cluster that it needed something massive..ie..reformation of Honor's perpendicularity, to be able to heal it, if even for a short time.

[scottos]

23 minutes ago, Heir of the Void said:

I'm not sure there's any reason to assume there has to be a magical/Realmatic explanation for his insanity. He was tortured by (functional) demons for 4,500 years; just the isolation from that span of time would be maddening, let alone the actual pain.

That said, Jezerian seemed nonfunctional in the prologue and when Moash/Vyre killed him, but at least lucid in the predule after they agreed to break the Oathpact. It seems like there may have been something that caused a degregation in his and the other herald's mental states.

Has anyone considered if the Shattering of Honor might have played a role in all of this?

That was my thought as well, that the shattering of Honor is likely related to the insanity of the Heralds. My guess is that in order to be immortal they required a great deal of investiture from Honor. That would make them closely tied to Honor. When Honor was shattered it would have shattered the heralds as well. 

[Subvisual Haze]

You'll also notice Adolin's sword was more functional/alive in the battle (whispering her name to Adolin, understanding his intentions when passed to another soldier, summoning in less than 10 heartbeats).  I think a similar process is at work there, the "dead" spren's spiritweb is a mess, but bridging the realms somewhat healed her spirit.  Hard to say if it was just a temporary process though, as we lack comparison POVs of Adolin thinking about his sword after the battle.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

Dalinar created something powerful, but there is one said to already to exist in the horn eater peaks. If talon became aware here, could something similar happen in the peaks? These locations could potentially heal at least temporarily the heralds of their worst of their damage.

[Leuthie]

Insanity can be Physical (broken synapses in the brain, caused by trauma, chemical abuse, old age, etc), Cognitive (malformed view of oneself caused by prolonged abuse a la Shallan, etc) or Spiritual (mechanics more muddy, but I'd guess it's more often caused by Investment or Shardic influence).  While the torture in Damnation may have caused some Cognitive damage, I'm sure Honor healed that upon their return. Their Physical bodies are irrelevant for the time they were tortured, since those bodies were also killed many times.  I lean toward Spirit Web issues causing Heraldic madness.  The opening of Honors Perpendicularity resulting in Talns temporary healing is evidence of this, although far from conclusive.

I personally lean toward Something Else (tm) causing the Herald's Insanity.  The torture they endured 4500 years ago wouldn't cause degeneration today and still be narratively interesting and important.  The torture had the singular effect of getting one of them to break the Oathpact and start a Desolation.  The torture will have no other narratively significant impact until we get to see it first-hand.

The Heralds and the Fused are Cognitvely breaking down for a similar reason.  The death and return cycle is possible, with the Heralds only experiencing one per Desolation, explaining how the Fused are MORE broken than the Heralds.

But the Heralds have been losing sanity since leaving that cycle.  With the little information we have, I have to lean toward Cognitive degeneration in a Cognitive Shadow due to loss of Investiture.  Honor's power is simply no longer there to sustain them.  This makes narrative sense as it ties their fate to Dalinar and his Ascension as opposed to making them completely separate narrative entities that require another side quest to figure out.

 

[Kaleid]

6 hours ago, Crazy1993 said:

The insanity is linked to them being tortured for centuries at a time, millenia in Taln's case. Damnation is explicitly Braize, though it wouldn't surprise me if the Heralds get thrown into Shadesmar when they go there. Seems like you could be more creative with that kind of evil in a more malleable plane.

 

I understand Damnantion being in Braize, but I always considered that to mean in the physical realm of Braize. It potentially being in the cognitive (or even, somehow, the spiritual) realm of Braize opens up a whole other realm(s) of possibilities.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

5 hours ago, scottos said:

That was my thought as well, that the shattering of Honor is likely related to the insanity of the Heralds. My guess is that in order to be immortal they required a great deal of investiture from Honor. That would make them closely tied to Honor. When Honor was shattered it would have shattered the heralds as well.

@scottos and @Heir of the Void What if this is a feedback loop? The Heralds abandon Taln to damnation (not very honorable), because Honor has so heavily invested himself in the Herlads this causes honor to splinter, and because the heralds are so heavily invested in by Honor his splintering causes their spirit webs to splinter and break apart as well, the cycle keeps spiraling in on itself until honor is fully splintered and the Heralds are fully insane.

I just posted this on a separate thread, this is Syl's explanation of the functional cause of the awakening of the Parshmen:

Quote

"The Everstorm," Syl said. "Power has filled the holes in their souls, bridging the gaps. They didn't just wake Kaladin. They've been healed, Connection refounded, Identity restored. There's more to this than we ever realized. Somehow when you conquered them, you stole their ability to change forms. You literally ripped off a piece of their souls and locked it away."

Sounds a lot like what might have happened to Taln when Dalinar seized Honor's perpendicularity and Investiture sloshed out over all of Thaylen City.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I have a hard time thinking there's too big of a connection just because Taln had a similar lucid moment in WoR when Shallan used Lightweaving in front of him. It seems more likely to me that he's being triggered by familiar sights and experiences rather than any magical fix for his insanity. I feel as though if Dalinar's three realm Hokey-pokey routine was healing Taln's connection in some way it would be more permanent like the Parshmen getting healed by the storm. This is mostly based on personal interpretation however.

[IllNsickly]

I was under the impression that Shallash was the primer for his lucidity?

[Steeldancer]

On 12/29/2017 at 10:52 AM, Melovespie said:

And in this brief moment of lucidity he expressed joy for having suffered for so long, giving the humans a chance to live free of Desolations. He's too good for us.

Except me. He's mine. 

No, it does seem to be the realms. If he doesn't find a way to heal in the future I'll be sad... maybe if someone found a way to bring his identity closer to him all the time... a bond, perhaps?

[.S.A.M.K.M]

What if Dalinar repeats his act but this time near the other percundality in the horn eater peaks? Exposure to both source of power at once could make the effect permanent.