theory [OB] How to Stop a Fused & Make a Parshman

[Wit Beyond Measure]

Thanks, @RShara!  I appreciate it.  I certainly don't have all of the answers.  Brandon does say the parshmen have evolved to lose their ability to change forms, so perhaps if humans kept taking gemhearts of Parshendi children long enough, evolution could happen.  Not being the author, I'm not exactly sure how the magic works in the first place, so I wouldn't know how one would do without it or what it was connected to.

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Continually mulling these ideas over, I've put together some new pieces from the Words of Brandon.  First, Brandon says that the Parshendi gods "are closer to what the humans would call 'Heralds.'" Heralds are humans who have been touched and somewhat transformed by Honor.  I'm assuming that the correlator for Parshendi would be Fused, who are Parshendi who have been touched and somewhat transformed by Odium.  

And now for the main WoB quote:

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yulerule

If a Parshendi takes a parshman by the hand, gives them a gemstone with a spren in it, leads him out into a highstorm, can the parshman become a Parshendi in the same way that they become a voidbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

Now, yes, before no. The everstorm changed them, there’s something going on. In fact, as that scene continues, with Gavilar and Eshonai, there is a clue in that scene. But I didn’t get to that part.

So the Everstorm changed the parshmen into Parshendi (or at least more Parshendi-like), with Brandon saying that a biological change was needed to make this happen. 

Brandon says that the clue to how the parshmen were transformed can be found in the prologue with Gavilar and Eshonai.  This scene is actually exactly where I had the epiphone that spawned this thread.  The prologue gives us the following:

1. Gavilar shows Eshonai the fabrial:  "Captive like in a gemheart, she thought, attuning Awe. They’ve built devices that mimic how we apply the forms?"
2. Gavilar: "I've discovered how to bring your gods [the Fused] back."
3. Gavilar: “Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation.”  Parshmen have been robbed of the ability to apply forms, where Eshonai just said that their ability to apply forms comes from gemhearts.
4. Gavilar: "We did it [robbed them of their ability to transform] by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.”  A Fused spren captured in a gemheart, where the Fused Parshendi would have Fused spren captured inside their own gemhearts, and then these Fused were robbed of their ability to transform, and their ability to transform comes from their gemhearts.

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Brandon Sanderson

That [switch from parshmen to Listener] would require some Identity changes and transformations.  ... It's not just a dump. It's a biological thing for them, they've adapted. So they've evolved to the point where this sort of thing-- It would be like trying to power DC with AC current or the wrong voltage or something like that... I mean once you figure it out it could be an easy hack but finding out that hack....

Stormlight Archive:

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Identity is a Spiritual attribute that can be stored in the metal aluminum (as a Feruchemical ability), or which can be used to wipe out internal Allomantic reserves (as an Allomantic ability), or which can be used to steal Enhancement Allomancy via Spiritweb (as a Hemalurgic ability).

So Identity is spiritual but it can be stored in something physical:  a physical vessel.  On Scandria, that physical vessel is metal.  On Roshar, what vessel do we know of that can hold Investiture similar to feruchemy?  Would not the Rosharian equivalent be gemhearts?  Don't gemhearts hold Investiture (Stormlight and Voidlight) the same way that metal does?

[RShara]

2 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

So the Everstorm changed the parshmen into Parshendi (or at least more Parshendi-like), with Brandon saying that a biological change was needed to make this happen.

 

No, sorry.  Brandon does not say it was a biological change. 

Quote

yulerule

If a Parshendi takes a parshman by the hand, gives them a gemstone with a spren in it, leads him out into a highstorm, can the parshman become a Parshendi in the same way that they become a voidbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

Now, yes, before no. The everstorm changed them, there’s something going on. In fact, as that scene continues, with Gavilar and Eshonai, there is a clue in that scene.

There is no mention of a biological change.  The Everstorm changed them,  yes.  It fixed their Connection and Identity, so that they weren't blocked off from the rest of their minds and Spirits any more.  There is not a mention of biological change. 

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Gavilar: "We did it [robbed them of their ability to transform] by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.”  A Fused spren captured in a gemheart, where the Fused Parshendi would have Fused spren captured inside their own gemhearts, and then these Fused were robbed of their ability to transform, and their ability to transform comes from their gemhearts.

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First, Brandon says that the Parshendi gods "are closer to what the humans would call 'Heralds.'" Heralds are humans who have been touched and somewhat transformed by Honor.  I'm assuming that the correlator for Parshendi would be Fused, who are Parshendi who have been touched and somewhat transformed by Odium.  

The Parshendi gods are the Unmade.  The Fused are important, but are more like their KR, rather than their gods.  A single Fused trapped in a gemstone isn't particularly important.  An Unmade, however, trapped in a gemstone, one such as BAM, would be crucial and crippling.  The hint in that scene is that a crucial spren, BAM, is trapped, was ripped away from the ancient Singers, causing them to lose part of their Spiritweb.

Additionally, the Fused are not captured in the Parshendi gemhearts.  They're inhabiting them, but are not trapped.  They could leave any time they want, assuming they have enough Investiture.  The Fused leave the body when it dies, they aren't stuck there.  So there's no reason to think that the Fused would stay in the gemheart after being ripped out.

Thirdly, the Fused have been trapped on Braize since Aharietiem.  There's no way Gavilar or Melishi would have been able to capture any.

Which reminds me, you still haven't addressed the physiological issues of having a crucial part of your anatomy removed for millennia, then suddenly added back in.  A gemheart isn't likely to just be sitting in the chest cavity.  It would have things attached to it, and at least some sort of nervous system relationship, they can feel the spren in their gemhearts.

 

Yes, Identity and Connection are Spiritual aspects that can sometimes be stored in a physical vessel.  We haven't seen any evidence that they can be stored in gemstones, however.  Aluminum and Duralumin (an alloy of Aluminum) both have very special and strange properties in the Cosmere. 

Also, storing Identity and Connection in a metalmind takes a particular act of will, and reduces your active Identity and Connection.  So the gemhearts can't be "storing" their Identity and Connection in the same way a metalmind does.  Otherwise, taking the gemheart away would actually *increase* their Idientity and Connection, since they're no longer putting it into their gemheart.

 

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perhaps if humans kept taking gemhearts of Parshendi children long enough, evolution could happen

...This is not how evolution works.  You could slice an arm off of a every person in a particular family for the next thousand years.  Every child would still be born with two arms.

You're also now implying that the removal of the gemheart is a physical action that must be taken?  But there's no way Melishi went around and manually ripped the gemheart out of every Singer. 

This is still disregarding the physiological implications of removing a crucial piece of anatomy.  Children would be even less likely to survive that.

Edited December 29, 2017 by RShara

[.S.A.M.K.M]

I wonder about that unmade they captured. It some how acted in place of odium, providing void light and forms of power. What if it was working towards something more? My impression is somehow the ever Storm is something new, what if it was being created by the unmade?  A way to negate or circumvent the oath pact. The fused get sent to blaize upon death, until they can return with the heralds. What if there was a way to summon the banished fused while the heralds were on Roshar? It would extend and worsen desolations. Speeding up the eventual collapse of the oath pact.

 

why did the ever storm heal the parshmen but not the fused? We know the fused have been damaged by the cycle of battle and death, so have they not been healed.

[Yata]

12 hours ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

I wonder about that unmade they captured. It some how acted in place of odium, providing void light and forms of power. What if it was working towards something more? My impression is somehow the ever Storm is something new, what if it was being created by the unmade?

But BAM is still captured and the Everstorm doesn't negate or circumvent the Oathpact...The Fused were unable to return until Taln's left.

The Fused don't have to follow the Heralds to return to Roshar. Simply the lock made by the Oathpact could be released if an Herald allow to do it. When this happen a Desolation starts and there is a timeframe (unknown how long it is) where the Oathpact's lock can't be restored. This is usually the Desolation's duration, if the Heralds doesn't restore this a new Desolation starts.

12 hours ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

why did the ever storm heal the parshmen but not the fused? We know the fused have been damaged by the cycle of battle and death, so have they not been healed.

Probably (but this is speculation) the Fused are beyond the repair, they were already healed so much times in the past that their Soul is already mostly a Spiritual Scar Tissue. After all they were probably killed dozen of times, many of them will be made with Shardblades/Honorblades and therefore Spiritual Wounded.

[dvoraen]

I'm basically echoing RShara about Ba-Ado-Mishram and how the parshmen were nearly all Spiritually mutilated:

 

Ba-Ado-Mishram Connected with the Listener race (presumably during the so-called False Desolation).  Given that the Unmade have a rather heavy touch (virtually all of them "consume" in some manner), I think it's safe to say that this Connection she made was parasitic at best, taking control of them "as Odium once did".  Once she was captured, her Connection with them was completely ripped away, leaving nothing but a big gaping scar where their Identity and minds used to be.  She "consumed" (overrode) the part of them that facilitated transformation when bonding a spren, and the removal of her presence effectively neutered them, completely severing their Connections.  This damage was likely passed on in offspring Cognitive/Spiritual DNA all the way to the present day.  The Everstorm repaired that damage.

If anything, reading between the lines hints at what Ba-Ado-Mishram's powers and reputation are, as far as human contact is concerned.  The folklore about Voidbringers possessing people probably sources back to this particular Unmade.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

Can this unmade be forced to connect to the fused instead? I once asked why their damage was never healed from the ever storm or void light. Someone posted that by now, they are likely all pure scar tissue. If the connection is forced, it could be a way to permanently cripple or deal with the fused. I see two results, they are so damaged that they can never take a living host again so stuck as thunderclasts, or they simply pass on into permanent death.

[RShara]

1 hour ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

Can this unmade be forced to connect to the fused instead? I once asked why their damage was never healed from the ever storm or void light. Someone posted that by now, they are likely all pure scar tissue. If the connection is forced, it could be a way to permanently cripple or deal with the fused. I see two results, they are so damaged that they can never take a living host again so stuck as thunderclasts, or they simply pass on into permanent death.

I'm not sure what that would accomplish?  The Fused are already stuffed full of Odium's Investiture, so an Unmade absorbing or connecting with them (which would be odd anyway since the Fused are mad and have no bodies) wouldn't really do much.

Odium can deal with the Fused any time he wants.  They're a tiny speck of his own power.  He could withdraw that power and stomp them into the Beyond.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

When that unmade was bound in a gemstone, the listerners it was connected to, were crippled so completely that it passed to their descendants and it was only until a new source of odium power appeared to restore them. If something can be done by accident, it can be done on purpose. The listerners were healed, but my belief is that the fused are so scarred and damaged by their death and rebirth cycle, that not even odium himself could truly undo the damage. So humans can turn the power of odium against his own forces, via some kind of fabrial.

We know that thunderclasts are those fused who have passed the point of no return, and for some reason we're never healed of the damage.

[RShara]

Well he obviously has dozens and dozens of Fused.  A few of them too crazy to possess live Singers isn't a big deal.  He probably keeps a few of them around for thunderclasts, and ignores or Beyond-stomps the rest.

[Yata]

If the Fused were connected to BAM at that time I assume they could recive some bad feedback (different from Parshmen One) from her capture.

But there were no Fused in the False Desolation.. because It wasn't a Desolation.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

My theory is to use allot of the unmade against the fused. BAM providing the void light and the connection/binding to all the fused. Some of the unmade are known for messing with the mind or emotional state of their target. If their full power were unleashed upon the fused, it would serverly harm their already warped selves. Breaking what limited sanity and control they have left. The unmade are said to influence precognition, blood lust, gluttony and one that seems associated with sadness, grief, depression and pain. There is also one said to corrupt beings so interesting reactions.

the only thing is I am not sure what effect the other unmade would have upon the fused using this link. My best bet is that some how together they would influence what physical form they would now be able to assume.

 

if both the fused and unmade were bound together, and used to side line each other, it would vastly alter the battle field. Enough to force a confrontation of champions.

[RShara]

12 minutes ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

My theory is to use allot of the unmade against the fused. BAM providing the void light and the connection/binding to all the fused. Some of the unmade are known for messing with the mind or emotional state of their target. If their full power were unleashed upon the fused, it would serverly harm their already warped selves. Breaking what limited sanity and control they have left. The unmade are said to influence precognition, blood lust, gluttony and one that seems associated with sadness, grief, depression and pain. There is also one said to corrupt beings so interesting reactions.

the only thing is I am not sure what effect the other unmade would have upon the fused using this link. My best bet is that some how together they would influence what physical form they would now be able to assume.

 

if both the fused and unmade were bound together, and used to side line each other, it would vastly alter the battle field. Enough to force a confrontation of champions.

That's an interesting scenario, but why or how would that be accomplished, given they are both (mostly) on Odium's side?  Additionally, the Fused that are so damaged they can't take bodies are...well they don't have bodies.  I don't know if the Unmade can affect creatures that are pure Cognitive Shadows with no physical link.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

I was thinking some kind of epic fabrial. The magic of this world is based on surges, and their can affect more than the physical realm.

my plan has so far one of the unmade providing void light and connection to all the fused. Five of the unmade seem like they would be best suited to warping the already fragile and broken selves of the fused. That would leave three unmade left unassigned, one due to the simple fact only their name is know. The midnight mother creates some kind of spren, I was thinking it could provide a form of rebirth for the fused. The last of the unmade was seen causing its host to grow crystals, I was thinking this could force it to grow a pseudo thunderclast firm, trapping the fused in that form

[RShara]

I'm not sure any of that would work, given the very limited information that we have on them.  But I have to ask again, why or how would that be accomplished, given that they are all on Odium's side?  Why would the Unmade WANT to trap the broken Fused?  And what use would that be?  They just float around, unable to do anything much.  There are a few that can become thunderclasts, but most of them seem to just be incoherent.

And how would they affect creatures that are pure Cognitive Shadows, who don't have bodies, or much in the way of minds?

[.S.A.M.K.M]

My fabrial idea would be based that they can force the unmade to comply. The corrupter can affect spren which are not physical beings, I am thinking that the fused are similar enough to spren to be affected. BAM provides the power and connection, the corrupter gives them the ability to actually alter them. The surges which all these magics can affect more than just the physical realm.

[Dlyol]

1 hour ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

my plan has so far one of the unmade providing void light and connection to all the fused. Five of the unmade seem like they would be best suited to warping the already fragile and broken selves of the fused. That would leave three unmade left unassigned, one due to the simple fact only their name is know. The midnight mother creates some kind of spren, I was thinking it could provide a form of rebirth for the fused. The last of the unmade was seen causing its host to grow crystals, I was thinking this could force it to grow a pseudo thunderclast firm, trapping the fused in that form

Setting aside whether this possible, why would this be a good story that Brandon would want to write? All it would do is turn the SA into a giant macguffin hunt. Given that Brandon has really carefully designed the magic system so that magical feats and emotional payoff are closely intertwined I just don't see this as something he would do. Sorry to be brusque but I think a big problem with us as a fandom is treating theories about world building and theories about character completely separately when Brandon very clearly hasn't and doesn't. 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Dlyol

[Tiak]

The information we have implies that Parshmen were all transformed at once.  We have no evidence of any sort of a piecemeal attempt to hunt down and mutilate individual Singers and cut out their gemhearts.  Not only would that be horrible, but if the Radiants were capable of stopping them that way, why not just kill them all?  Would they really be no survivors other than the Parshendi in dull form?

Likewise, if that happened, where would the huge cache of fused have gone and why hasn't it come into play?

It seems much much more likely that the Parshmen basically had the "connection" part of their spiritweb crippled so they could not bond spren or feel their connection to the world's songs.  This would also go some way to explain how a bondsmith would be able to do this to all parshmen at once, as bondsmiths command grand powers over connection.
 

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“The Everstorm,” Syl said. “Power has filled the holes in their souls, bridging the gaps. They didn’t just wake, Kaladin. They’ve been healed, Connection refounded, Identity restored. There’s more to this than we ever realized. Somehow when you conquered them, you stole their ability to change forms. You literally ripped off a piece of their souls and locked it away.” She turned sharply. “He’s coming back. I will stay nearby, in case you need a Blade.”

 

[.S.A.M.K.M]

I am so focused on my idea as the unmade are pieces of odium power so can't actually be killed. The fused are kinda a form of restless spirits unable to be truly slain. So there has to be someway to remove them as a threat even if they can't be killed. My theory would have them bound together, their power mixing and merging, offering them a chance of a kind of rebirth. And the use of all the fused and unmade is in the hope that they emerge somewhat more balanced than when they started. So while touched by odium power, not pushed to extremes. Sort of like how the Kandra are the result of ruin, yet they are generally a positive force.