theory [OB] How to Stop a Fused & Make a Parshman

[Wit Beyond Measure]

I've been thinking for awhile about how the Parshendi have a Gemheart Bond with spren (using gemhearts inside of them to capture the spren) that is similar to the Nahel Bond of the Knights Radiant.  More background on that theory is here:

I've just barely started my reread and am struck by an idea for how the ancient Alethi (or others) might have created their Parshmen.  I believe parshmen to be Parshendi without gemhearts to capture the spren that gives the Parshendi their abilities to change forms.

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“Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 23). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Recently, I've realized that spren are released from the Gemheart (Parshendi) Bond as soon as the host dies, which is why we always see Mandras around dead chasmfiends and potentially why we see Timbre flying around Eshonai's body.  This idea is strongly supported by the rebirth of the Fused whenever their host body dies.  

What if we amputate the gemheart from a living Fused?  That would transform the Parshendi into parshmen and give the Alethi all of these gemhearts with the spren of the Fused still captured inside - just like the captured ancient spren that Gavilar is talking about in this quote and IMO just like the one in the sphere he gives to Eshonai.  Gavilar just doesn't understand that it wasn't the Alethi who actually captured the spren but the Parshendi, with the Alethi only recovering the gemstone-captured spren from the living bodies of the Parshendi.

[The Sovereign]

3 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

What if we amputate the gemheart from a living Fused?  That would transform the Parshendi into parshmen and give the Alethi all of these gemhearts with the spren of the Fused still captured inside 

There is the slight problem of removing the Gemheart instantly killing the Singer.

[RShara]

Then how did the parshmen regain their minds in the Everstorm?  I don't think they spontaneously grew a gemheart.

No, I think the disconnect involved their Spiritweb or their Cognitive Mind having a barrier between it and their Physical body, similar to the difference between Mistwraiths and Kandra.

[Wit Beyond Measure]

10 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

There is the slight problem of removing the Gemheart instantly killing the Singer.

Where? Thanks.

I do think it would end the Singer but leave a parshman since the parshmen don't sing to the rhythms.

9 minutes ago, RShara said:

Then how did the parshmen regain their minds in the Everstorm?  I don't think they spontaneously grew a gemheart.

Actually, I do think the Everstorm somehow magically replaces the gemhearts into the parshmen, yes.  I'm not sure if they allow the gems to grow there or how that happens, but it is clear that the Everstorm magically transforms parshmen into Parshendi, and so I don't think that the addition of the gemheart would be a stretch.

Keep in mind that both parshmen and Parshendi are violently opposed to the defilement of their dead bodies, not wanting to be touched or examined or especially autopsied.  Parshmen were never violent about anything else, in fact.  Surely this was because autopsying a Parshendi and a parhsman would reveal that the key difference was in the lack of a gemheart.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[RShara]

I'm sorry, but that drastic a change in physiology would cause a number of problems. 

Also, how do you solve the problem of what Melishi did to remove their minds?  That she somehow made all their gemhearts disappear?  This would again cause a distinctive physiological set of problems aside from them losing their mental abilities.

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Keep in mind that both parshmen and Parshendi are violently opposed to the defilement of their bodies, not wanting to be touched or examined or especially autopsied.  Parshmen were never violent about anything else, in fact.  Surely this was because autopsying a Parshendi and a parhsman would reveal that the key difference was in the lack of a gemheart.

I think you're assigning too high a degree of sapience to the parshmen.  They would first have to realize that they didn't have gemhearts, then realize that examining the innards would result in noticing a difference, and then realize it would be detrimental to them (which I'm not sure of).  Also, no one knew of the Parshendi at all until about 6 or 7 years ago, so what motivation would they have had to fear this "discovery" before then?  Parshmen have been opposed (not violently, they didn't have the ability to be violent) to having their corpses touched for ages.

[Wit Beyond Measure]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

I'm sorry, but that drastic a change in physiology would cause a number of problems. 

Would it?  Both Aesudan and Amaram acquired gemhearts to their physiology without too many issues beyond the intentional corruption.

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Also, how do you solve the problem of what Melishi did to remove their minds?  That she somehow made all their gemhearts disappear?  This would again cause a distinctive physiological set of problems aside from them losing their mental abilities.

Are you speaking of this Melishi quote?

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Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 774). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

The Unmade spren are different from the Fused.  Melishi might be the only person capable of binding the Unmade in gemhearts because he is the only one who can bind gods (like Dalinar, Binder of Gods). However, we see that Fused spren can bond with Parshendi (via their gemhearts).  I don't know that successful amputation of a captured Fused-spren gemheart would require the Binder of Gods exclusively, but I suppose that might be the case.

Removing the gemhearts does not remove their minds but rather removes their ability to bond with spren, where this Gemheart Bond between spren and Parshendi is what enhances both the minds of the spren and the Parshendi in a symbiotic type of relationship.  Dullform is the Parshendi form with no spren bond, an empty gemheart, which is most similar to the form of a parshman, the only difference being that a Parshendi of Dullform can still transform if needed, as we see with Rlain who is successfully able to impersonate a parshman by taking Dullform.

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I think you're assigning too high a degree of sapience to the parshmen.  They would first have to realize that they didn't have gemhearts, then realize that examining the innards would result in noticing a difference, and then realize it would be detrimental to them (which I'm not sure of).  Also, no one knew of the Parshendi at all until about 6 or 7 years ago, so what motivation would they have had to fear this "discovery" before then?  Parshmen have been opposed (not violently, they didn't have the ability to be violent) to having their corpses touched for ages.

I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to imply that the parshmen were cognizant of why they did what they did, only that this was the reason whether the parshmen realized it or not.  They may not understand why they are so opposed to defiling their dead - just that they obviously are, perhaps seeing the bodies as sacred for some unknown reason. 

I personally don't think Sanderson does anything as detailed as the parshmen/Parshendi reactions to their dead without a very good reason.  Parshendi protecting their bodies and the secrets of their anatomy seems like a very natural defense mechanism that could be so ingrained and reflexive as to not require thought, and so may have been retained even through the conversion from Parshendi to parshmen, with the added benefit of being the perfect plot device to prevent humans from discovering the difference.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[Melovespie]

I like the theory propagated on the Shardcast that whatever the KR did to capture Ba-Ado-Mishrim while she was connected to the parshmen caused them to lose their forms and cut them off from making normal bonds. Whatever she did to rally them and start the false desolation caused them to completely lose their connection to the cognitive realm when she was captured. The Shardcast also believes this is part of what caused the Knights Radiant to abandon their oaths, as they realized they had essentially committed genocide. 

[RShara]

1 minute ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Would it?  Both Aesudan and Amaram acquired gemhearts to their physiology without too many issues beyond the intentional corruption.

Aesudan died.  We don't know what happened to her.  Amaram turned into a giant crystal.  He had crystals growing out of his face and arms and legs.  And his chest turned into a giant crystal.  Yes...it definitely affected his physiology.

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Are you speaking of this Melishi quote?

I'm referring to this quote

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We are uncertain the effect this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power.  Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects. 

 Also this quote from the Prologue of OB:

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“Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.” He looked at her, green eyes alight. “I’ve seen how that can be reversed. A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding. A new war.”

It seems whatever he did (I don't know why I keep calling him her), one of the unintended side effects created the parshmen.  I don't see how, whatever he did, could have made their gemhearts disappear.  And even if they did disappear, I would guess it'd cause some physiological issues.  We don't know what else is involved in having a gemheart, what organs, blood vessels, nerves, ligaments, etc etc, are connected to them (if any).  Assuming that a fairly important organ being removed is without side-effects is a rather large leap, imo.

 

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Removing the gemhearts does not remove their minds but rather removes their ability to bond with spren, where this Gemheart Bond is what enhances both the minds of the spren and the Parshendi in a symbiotic type of relationship.  Dullform is the Parshendi form with no spren bond, an empty gemheart, which is most similar to the form of a parshman, the only difference being that a Parshendi of Dullform can still transform if needed, as we see with Rlain who is successfully able to impersonate a parshman by taking Dullform.

Dullform has a spren.  Slaveform has no spren.  The parsmen are in slaveform, not dullform. 

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I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to imply that the parshmen were cognizant of why they did what they did, only that this was their reason whether they realized it or not.  The parshmen may not understand why they are so opposed to defiling their dead - just that they obviously are, perhaps seeing the bodies as sacred for some unknown reason.

This wouldn't explain why both the parshmen and the Parshendi hate it when the bodies of their dead are moved.  The PoVs we get from the Parshendi don't imply that this resistance is new or due to the humans.  The Parshendi and the parshmen didn't know of each others' existence until just a few years ago.  The same (original) culture separated by a couple thousand years, arriving at an identical reverence for their dead for entirely different reasons is improbable at best.  Also, when would the Parshendi have dissected a parshman to know that it didn't have a gemheart?  The Listeners, aka the Lost Legion, fled the fight before Melishi did his thing, so they would have no idea what happened to them or that they didn't have gemhearts.

[Wit Beyond Measure]

@RShara Do you think the Parshendi do not have gemhearts?  Or do you believe that the parshmen do have gemhearts?

We have a great deal of evidence that Parshendi do have gemhearts and that the Parshendi's gemhearts are the key that allows them to bond their spren and change forms:

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Humans don’t have gemhearts. How could they bond spren? It was unnatural.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 834). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

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“He has passed into the blindness beyond,” Demid said. “Unlike the witless Voidspren you bonded—which resides in your gemheart—my soul cannot share its dwelling. Nothing, not Regrowth or act of Odium, can restore him now.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 577). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

So it seems clear to me from both of these quotes that Parshendi have gemhearts and that these gemhearts are what allows them to bond spren.

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Captive like in a gemheart, she thought, attuning Awe. They’ve built devices that mimic how we apply the forms?

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 23). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

From this quote, it seems clear to me that bonding the spren through the gemheart is the key that allows Parshendi to take different forms.

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“Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 23). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

If the parshmen are Parshendi who have been robbed of their ability to change Parshendi forms, and if the Parshendi ability to change into different forms comes from capturing a spren in a gemheart, then it seems completely logical that parshmen do not have gemhearts. 

If the parshmen do have gemhearts, why can't they transform like the Parshendi?

If the major difference between Parshendi and parshmen is the gemheart, and if the gemheart gives Parshendi the ability to bond with spren and change forms, including Voidspren and forms of power like the Fused, then what could Gavilar be talking about robbing the parshmen of other than gemhearts that would take away their abilities to transform?

********

Here is a great quote supporting gemhearts as the reason Parshendi view their bodies as sacred and personal.

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“So timid,” he said to Ridicule. “Why is mentioning gemhearts so difficult?”

“They are sacred and personal.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 834). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

[RShara]

17 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

@RShara Do you think the Parshendi do not have gemhearts?  Or do you believe that the parshmen do have gemhearts?

We have a great deal of evidence that Parshendi do have gemhearts and that the Parshendi's gemhearts are the key that allows them to bond their spren and change forms:

 

So it seems clear to me from both of these quotes that Parshendi have gemhearts and that these gemhearts are what allows them to bond spren.

From this quote, it seems clear to me that bonding the spren through the gemheart is the key that allows Parshendi to take different forms.

If the parshmen are Parshendi who have been robbed of their ability to change Parshendi forms, and if the Parshendi ability to change into different forms comes from capturing a spren in a gemheart, then it seems completely logical that parshmen do not have gemhearts. 

If the parshmen do have gemhearts, why can't they transform like the Parshendi?

If the major difference between Parshendi and parshmen is the gemheart, and if the gemheart gives Parshendi the ability to bond with spren and change forms, including Voidspren and forms of power like the Fused, then what could Gavilar be talking about robbing the parshmen of other than gemhearts that would take away their abilities to transform?

********

Here is a great quote supporting gemhearts as the reason Parshendi view their bodies as sacred and personal.

 

The Parshendi have gemhearts.  The parshmen have gemhearts.  The capture of BAM deprived the parshmen, who were linked to her at the time, of part of their spiritweb or cognitive self, and prevent them from being able to transform.

The Everstorm healed that split in their minds/spirit and allowed them to transform again.

Syl says this explicitly in OB:

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“The Everstorm,” Syl said. “Power has filled the holes in their souls, bridging the gaps. They didn’t just wake, Kaladin. They’ve been healed, Connection refounded, Identity restored. There’s more to this than we ever realized. Somehow when you conquered them, you stole their ability to change forms. You literally ripped off a piece of their souls and locked it away.”

Note the capitalized words.  Connection refounded, Identity restored.  Their Connection to the rest of their minds, their Identity as *themselves* was ripped away. 

There's also the bits about physiological changes, the capturing of BAM, and the unlikelihood of two groups originating from the same culture arriving at a similar belief for independent and separate reasons.

A final note:  There has not been a single case of a creature with a gemheart surviving once that gemheart has been removed.  It's never been inferred, implied, stated or alluded to.  While this isn't proof of absence, it does make it very unlikely that they can survive without their gemhearts.

Edited December 28, 2017 by RShara

[Calderis]

This couldn't have been due to gemheart excision. For one thing, performing surgery on every singer save the last Legion is completely impractical, and more importantly, amputation of a limb or removal of an organ doesn't change the way offspring grow. If I were to lose an arm, my child would still, barring birth defects, have two arms. 

What was done to the Parsh was done on the Spiritual level. Add in that typical Parshmen are most likely not born with a spren, as they have a "day of first transformation" and I highly doubt it was merely a physical change. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Calderis

[.S.A.M.K.M]

From the description of the thunderclasts, they are fused that are so warped and mangle by the cycle of battle and death, that they are no longer capable of taking a living vessel. If they are removed from the field of play, then a new solution could bring peace.

i wonder if there is a way to specificly cripple the fused, similar to how the parshmen were created. If the fused can be changed enough they are either forced to move on or simply no longer truly walk amongst the living, stuck as Thunderclasts. They might remain as beings of power, but they would not be aware enough to use it effectively. I am leaning to transformation as a solution, as we know the crippling could be undone by the Everstorm.

Since the crippling strike involved an unmade, my theory involves the nine used against them. Some of the unmade are known for messing with the mind/spirit, so they could push the fused into loosing what little sanity and control they retain. The rest of the unmade as purely a guess create a new form to trap and bind them in. One of the unmade creates a kind of spren, another causes crystals to be grown. The crystals could be very important. A perfect gemstone can trap an unmade, but could lesser crystals be grown that can permanent trap a cognitive shadow.

[Wit Beyond Measure]

53 minutes ago, RShara said:

The Parshendi have gemhearts.  The parshmen have gemhearts.  The capture of BAM deprived the parshmen, who were linked to her at the time, of part of their spiritweb or cognitive self, and prevent them from being able to transform.

The Everstorm healed that split in their minds/spirit and allowed them to transform again.

Syl says this explicitly in OB:

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“The Everstorm,” Syl said. “Power has filled the holes in their souls, bridging the gaps. They didn’t just wake, Kaladin. They’ve been healed, Connection refounded, Identity restored. There’s more to this than we ever realized. Somehow when you conquered them, you stole their ability to change forms. You literally ripped off a piece of their souls and locked it away.”

This is a great book quote.  I think that the pieces of their souls that got ripped away and that allowed them their abilities to change forms were their gemhearts.  We see evidence of that fact since Eshonai says, in the OB prologue, that trapping spren in gemhearts is their secret to changing forms.  Note how the quote above talks about changing forms in general whereas the following quote talks very specifically about only forms of power.

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Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 780). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

I interpret "parsh" and "parsh people" to be both Parshendi and parshmen. 

The Parshendi could take on Stormform to transform into most of their forms (except forms of power) without Voidlight.  The Parshendi couldn't transform into true forms of power until they brought the Everstorm, which eventually brought the Fused, and now we know why!  This quote implies that the Everstorm is of BAM and so must bring the Voidlight necessary to bond Voidspren and take on forms of power.  BAM fuels the Everstorms in the same way that the Stormfather fuels the highstorms.  Brilliant!  So BAM is to Odium as the Stormfather is to Honor:  BAM is a really big splinter of Odium.

I can now better understand why BAM is associated with Voidlight and necessary for all parsh to transform into forms of power, just as the quote says.  But we have absolutely no reason, to my knowledge, to suspect that BAM has anything to do with other Parshendi forms that existed well before the Everstorm and that require Stormlight instead of Voidlight.

BAM does not explain why parshmen cannot take on regular Parshendi forms like Workform, Warform, or Mateform.  The only essential element to Parshendi forms we know of is the gemheart, though I suspect that Stormlight is also necessary since the Parshendi always went out into the highstorms in order to transform.

Both "Connection" and "Connected" with a capital C imply the gemheart connection:  the tool that allows spren and Voidspren (of Odium and possibly of BAM) to connect with the parsh.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[RShara]

Connection and Identity are two of the basic building blocks of the Cosmere, along with things like Fortune and Determination.  That's why they're capitalized.  They can be stored in metalminds, for instance. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Feruchemy#Spiritual  Sorry, but they don't imply anything other than what they are--aspects of a person's Spiritual component.

Their Connection and Identity was stolen from them.  The Everstorm filled in the tears and allowed them to access their selves again.  This is a Spiritual Realm thing, not a Physical Realm thing.  Gemhearts are related to the Spiritual Realm, but are not in or of the Spiritual Realm.  Connection and Identity are of the Spiritual aspect of a person, and that was the part that was damaged and restored with Odium's Investiture.

BAM's Connection and manipulation of the Singers' Spiritweb (including their spiritual Identity) allowed them the forms of power.  When she was imprisoned, she took all that with her.  Having investiture that's part of you torn away causes damage.  Like when a KR breaks his oaths, ripping away the area of the Spiritweb where they're bonded damages the spren to the point of bare sentience.  The same thing happened, to a slightly lesser degree, to the Singers.  They were bonded to BAM, drawing voidlight from her.  When she was imprisoned, she was ripped away from them, and took parts of their souls with her, making them lose the ability to bond spren or even attain much in the way of sapience.

It took the Listeners centuries or even millennia to figure out anything more than dullform and mateform, and they actually had intelligence and motive.  With no intelligence to speak of, the parshmen would have no way of figuring out or accessing any of the other forms.

 

And again, both Listeners and parshmen are distressed when someone messes with their dead.  It stands to reason that it's because they both revered their dead before their cultural split, rather than they both ended up revering their dead for two separate reasons.

Also, just because they are distressed, doesn't mean that the Alethi and others didn't actually dissect them to look for gemhearts.  We know they did this to Parshendi.

[Calderis]

@Wit Beyond Measure this was written before the book dropped, during the preview chapters, but it still sums up what I feel happened pretty well.

I believe what was done is purely Spiritual and/or Cognitive, and not Physical at all.

[Wit Beyond Measure]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@Wit Beyond Measure this was written before the book dropped, during the preview chapters, but it still sums up what I feel happened pretty well.

I believe what was done is purely Spiritual and/or Cognitive, and not Physical at all.

Oh, yes.  Your book quote is how I knew that dullform are Parshendi who have no spren:

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"This could change the world, Bila," Eshonai said. "If Venli is right, and she can bond with this spren and come out with anything other than dullform... Well, at the very least we will have an entirely new form to choose. At the greatest we will we have power to control the storms and tap their energy."

There seem to be two outcomes possible:  either Venli bonds the new spren or she won't.  Going out in the storm will release the previous spren, and so without bonding, Venli would be left with no spren bond and thus in dullform.

Because the parshmen have no gemhearts to hold spren, they cannot form any bonds but they are exactly like dullform in every other way.  Note that "slaveform" does not exist in canon, to my knowledge, probably because the parshmen slaves have no forms and cannot have forms.  

Edited December 29, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[RShara]

But the things I’ve quoted and explained still show this was a Spiritual thing, not a Physical thing. 

 

Also, dullform have spren. I’ll provide the quote when I get home.

[Calderis]

@Wit Beyond Measure that is not what that quote implies.

If she bonds a spren, then either a new form will be discovered, or they will revert to dullform. Dullform does not lack a spren, it's a bond with a non-viable spren. The only spren free form we've seen is slaveform/Parshmen. 

And even that isn't enough of an explanation. Unless you can find evidence that Parshmen are somehow born with spren, which I find unlikely, then there is a base form of the Singers that is natural and intelligent, that is normal only seen in children prior to their day of first transformation. 

I believe that that form is what we see the Parsh turned to by the Everstorm. They are literally grown children, without a spren form. 

The listeners had an age that they were allowed to transform, see Eshonai visiting her mother in WoR and being told by her delusional mother "you haven't even reached your day of first transformation." going into the storm for the first time is viewed as a coming of age. 

What was altered in the Parshmen was, according to Syl, Identity and Connection. These are both Spiritual functions in the Cosmere. I'm failing to see what makes you so sure that a physiological piece has to dissappear because of a Spiritual change.

If, as I believe, the gemheart remained, but the portions of the spiritweb that connect to it are severed, then it would be a lump of useless mineral in their body. Without those pieces it would be non-functional. A vestigial organ. Why must it be removed? And what reason do we have to think that? I've read this whole thread and I am not seeing anything that makes this a requirement. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Calderis

[Vortaan]

31 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

There seem to be two outcomes possible:  either Venli bonds the new spren or she won't.  Going out in the storm will release the previous spren, and so without bonding, Venli would be left with no spren bond and thus in dullform.

Because the parshmen have no gemhearts to hold spren, they cannot form any bonds but they are exactly like dullform in every other way.  Note that "slaveform" does not exist in canon, to my knowledge, probably because the parshmen slaves have no forms and cannot have forms.  

I think you're reading that quote differently than it's intended. I take it as: either Venli has the proper Intent to bond with the spren and achieve the form that it would give, or she doesn't and bonds with it and gets dullform. 

And Parshmen have gemhearts. Implying that somehow humanity ripped out a vital part of their biology and it was returned by a storm is just too large a logical leap. 

[Wit Beyond Measure]

51 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Wit Beyond Measure that is not what that quote implies.

If she bonds a spren, then either a new form will be discovered, or they will revert to dullform. Dullform does not lack a spren, it's a bond with a non-viable spren. The only spren free form we've seen is slaveform/Parshmen. 

And even that isn't enough of an explanation. Unless you can find evidence that Parshmen are somehow born with spren, which I find unlikely, then there is a base form of the Singers that is natural and intelligent, that is normal only seen in children prior to their day of first transformation. 

I believe that that form is what we see the Parsh turned to by the Everstorm. They are literally grown children, without a spren form. 

The listeners had an age that they were allowed to transform, see Eshonai visiting her mother in WoR and being told by her delusional mother "you haven't even reached your day of first transformation." going into the storm for the first time is viewed as a coming of age. 

What was altered in the Parshmen was, according to Syl, Identity and Connection. These are both Spiritual functions in the Cosmere. I'm failing to see what makes you so sure that a physiological piece has to dissappear because of a Spiritual change.

If, as I believe, the gemheart remained, but the portions of the spiritweb that connect to it are severed, then it would be a lump of useless mineral in their body. Without those pieces it would be non-functional. A vestigial organ. Why must it be removed? And what reason do we have to think that? I've read this whole thread and I am not seeing anything that makes this a requirement. 

What I'm claiming to be true is not absolute at all, which is why I've labeled the thread as a theory.  That said, I do think there is evidence, just not definitive evidence, that parshmen do not have gemhearts.  I do believe there is more evidence that parshmen do not have gemhearts than that they do, and I've already given the many quotes I believe that supports this:  we know gemhearts are essential for changing forms and we know parshmen could not change forms.  I've made a leap to assume that this is because parshmen do not have the one tool that we know is essential to changing forms. 

I could be wrong, yes.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[RShara]

28 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

What I'm claiming to be true is not absolute at all, which is why I've labeled the thread as a theory.  That said, I do think there is evidence, just not definitive evidence, that parshmen do not have gemhearts.  I do believe there is more evidence that parshmen do not have gemhearts than that they do, and I've already given the many quotes I believe that supports this:  we know gemhearts are essential for changing forms and we know parshmen could not change forms.  I've made a leap to assume that this is because parshmen do not have the one tool that we know is essential to changing forms. 

I could be wrong, yes.

Right but I’ve given a lot of evidence that it was a purely Spiritual problem. 

[Wit Beyond Measure]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

Right but I’ve given a lot of evidence that it was a purely Spiritual problem. 

And so I completely understand and respect your different perspective.  Thank you.

[Calderis]

Sorry Wit, I didn't mean for that to come across as harsh as it reads. 

I understand it's a theory. I obviously don't agree, and I've tried to list the reasons why. I don't understand why you think the change must be physical, but I didn't intend for that to come across as condescending as it does on a reread. 

[Wit Beyond Measure]

36 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Sorry Wit, I didn't mean for that to come across as harsh as it reads. 

I understand it's a theory. I obviously don't agree, and I've tried to list the reasons why. I don't understand why you think the change must be physical, but I didn't intend for that to come across as condescending as it does on a reread. 

Oh, no.  I didn't take it that way!  I realize I had come across more aggressively than I intended and so wanted to reaffirm that this is a theory and that I could be wrong, as always.  I am sad that others are not fond of this idea but am not yet ready to give it up.  This idea really is perhaps my very favorite Stormlight theory and definitely has the least positive reception.

As to why I think it must be physical, it just makes so much sense and explains so many answers in my head, like 42:  the answer to life, the universe, and everything.  Here is a little bit of evidence to support the physical connection, though.

Quote

Argent

Would a parshman who received multiple breaths, or any other type of Investiture, be able to gain sentence [sentience?] or become more like listener-- Kind of like mistwraith/kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

That would require some Identity changes and transformations.

Argent

So it's not just a dump of--

Brandon Sanderson

It's not just a dump. It's a biological thing for them, they've adapted. So they've evolved to the point where this sort of thing-- It would be like trying to power DC with AC current or the wrong voltage or something like that... I mean once you figure it out it could be an easy hack but finding out that hack it's like-- You know it's like going back to people in the 1800's and being like "Why don't you guys have electricity?" *laughter*

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e131

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[RShara]

But again, Identity is a fundamental Spiritual Cosmere force.  So Identity changes and transformations are Spiritual, not Physical. 

Yes, the parshmen are adapted to having gemhearts and life on Roshar.  So having gemhearts is biological.  And not having them would have serious physiological issues.  Having them suddenly pop back IN would cause even more.

Also the point Calderis brought up--why would successive parshmen generations also be born without gemhearts, then?  Amputation isn't inherited, so the ones after the first group should have then had gemhearts.

(Also not being aggressive.  This is just how I debate )

Edited December 29, 2017 by RShara