What is wrong with Renarin?(full book)

[junior]

I hate to say it.  Really, I honestly do.  But if Renarin ever goes bad...  I'm gonna laugh.

 

/duck

[FeatherWriter]

You're in luck. I already wrote that essay. I ain't duplicating it here. It was written before WoR, but it's still all good meta.

[Aleksiel]

I'm wondering something different about Renarin. Why is he a Truthwatcher? He is one of the bravest characters in the series, I expected him to be a Dustbringer. Sorry, Releaser. I suppose he's learned for a man and he's giving in a way, but he is also so obedient and did I mention brave? 

[shadewolf]

I'm wondering something different about Renarin. Why is he a Truthwatcher? He is one of the bravest characters in the series, I expected him to be a Dustbringer. Sorry, Releaser. I suppose he's learned for a man and he's giving in a way, but he is also so obedient and did I mention brave? 

 

Well he does seem brave and obedient, but his ability to self-sacrifice(give up himself for others), and knowledge exceed his bravery. Also, lets face it, renarin will never be a soldier. This isn't because he physically can't, the killing would affect him more so than either his brother kaladin or shallan(did I mention that I feel that shallan is borderline sociopathic); also there is more to war than swinging a sword, movements on a map can save more lives than a full set of plate. Renarin is set on a path to become a great strategist and healer.

Edited March 7, 2014 by shadewolf

[Aleksiel]

Well he does seem brave and obedient, but his ability to self-sacrifice(give up himself for others), and knowledge exceed his bravery. Also, lets face it, renarin will never be a soldier. This isn't because he physically can't, the killing would affect him more so than either his brother kaladin or shallan(did I mention that I feel that shallan is borderline sociopathic) also there is more to war than swinging a sword, movements on a map can save more lives than a full set of plate. Renarin will set on path to become a great strategist, and healer.

 

I see his self-sacrifices as prove of his bravery. If you go to the way of arguing this, anyone could just as well argue that it proves him to be loving, which goes towards an Edgedancer.  

 

And i certainly do not agree his knowledge exceeds his bravery as far as we've seen. He is brave in his everyday life by interacting with so many people as he has to. Storms, I'm an introvert and the idea of this scares me. The boy is brave. And he had never disobeyed anything Dalinar, Adolin, Zahel or Kaladin (when he went to Bridge Four) told him to do. Zahel even said he was a natural at this. 

[DragonReborn]

 

So, sit down. Imma 'splain you a thing.

 

 

Now then, this book, we've got... he starts seeing the future. You know, that thing that Vorinism expressly forbids as a thing of the Voidbringers. I'm pretty sure he's not fully in control of himself when he starts drawing thos glyphs everywhere, so now he thinks he's cursed by the Almighty with blasphemous powers and losing control of himself during highstorms and writing which... yes they're glyphs, but on top of the the future sight, I'm pretty sure he's feeling pretty horrified by what he is doing and what's happening to him.

 

 

 

Dalinar had been seeing visions as well. Why not confide with his father about his visions as well? Dalinar wouldn't think him crazy at all. 

He knows Dalinar has been having visions. Does he think his father is cursed as well?

 

You did bring up some good points about his courage tho. Still, I was getting pissed every character the whole book for not telling Dalinar about their abilities. 

[marianmi]

@Feather - you forgot that a Shardblade is something amazing, a gift from the Almighty. Touching one and hearing all the screams, seeing the future - certainly the Almighty cursed you, you must be one of the voidbringers to be in pain when touching holy objects.

[FeatherWriter]

Dalinar had been seeing visions as well. Why not confide with his father about his visions as well? Dalinar wouldn't think him crazy at all. 

He knows Dalinar has been having visions. Does he think his father is cursed as well?

 

You did bring up some good points about his courage tho. Still, I was getting pissed every character the whole book for not telling Dalinar about their abilities. 

 

Well, there's a difference between seeing the past and seeing the future. In fact, I think someone specifically tells Dalinar "You see the past, that is not forbidden" at one point during WoK. In fact, hearing things like that: "Oh it's okay that Dalinar is having visions because they're not the future. If he were seeing the future that would be awful and terrible"? That's probably going to make Renarin even less likely to tell people. 

 

Glad I could convince you about his courage. Like I said. I need more peple appreciating Renarin!

 

@Feather - you forgot that a Shardblade is something amazing, a gift from the Almighty. Touching one and hearing all the screams, seeing the future - certainly the Almighty cursed you, you must be one of the voidbringers to be in pain when touching holy objects.

 

Oh thanks. I didn't need my heart anyway. That's nice. I was just compaining that I wasn't upset enough about Renarin.

[marianmi]

Oh thanks. I didn't need my heart anyway. That's nice. I was just compaining that I wasn't upset enough about Renarin.

 

Hmmm, I was just giving you more bullets why Renarin is so fantastic... (as in why Renarin acted the way he did).

[taveren]

i was thinking the same thing about the countdown has anyone found any proof ether supporting or disproving it though

[Aleksiel]

i was thinking the same thing about the countdown has anyone found any proof ether supporting or disproving it though

 

Renarin is the only one capable of seeing the future (other than Hoid, but he has more of a hunches as far as we know) and Renarin has access to Illumination, so he could have easily entered the room Dalinar was in while having vision or sleeping. He suddenly starts righting infront of Shallan at the Oathgate.

[taveren]

true and thats why i believe that just wondering if there was anything concrete i might have missed

[FeatherWriter]

Hmmm, I was just giving you more bullets why Renarin is so fantastic... (as in why Renarin acted the way he did).

 

Oh I know. And its a wonderful argument. But it was also painful to think about. (Not that that's hard to do with me when Renarin's involved.)

[Aminar]

A quick note. Renarin didn't necessarily experience the same things Kaladin's dueling opponent did while touching the blade. Kal heard Syl scream. His opponent heard the Blade's Spren saying something about it's death. Possibly something akin to a broke Aeon, but that's speculative in the extreme.

I would guess Renarin only heard screaming, which is a little less traumatic than being accused of murder by an undead Spren.

[FeatherWriter]

A quick note. Renarin didn't necessarily experience the same things Kaladin's dueling opponent did while touching the blade. Kal heard Syl scream. His opponent heard the Blade's Spren saying something about it's death. Possibly something akin to a broke Aeon, but that's speculative in the extreme.

I would guess Renarin only heard screaming, which is a little less traumatic than being accused of murder by an undead Spren.

 

Constant, inexplicable, disembodied screaming is more traumatizing than an accusation of something he didn't do? Not to mention, if we're saying that a surgebinder hears screams when they touch a blade and the bonded person hears accusations of murder... Renarin would possibly hear both.  

 

And again. He experienced it for days on end. Whereas Kaladin and the duelist only got a tiny little moment. So yeah, I'm gonna argue that on the "traumatic experience involving screaming Shardblades" scale of 1-10, Kaladin and the Duelist are at like a 3 and Renarin's sitting over around 600.

[Crysanja]

Shallan send Pattern to help Renarin in the duel, maybe the opponent didnt hear the Shardblade at all.

 

i think you protect Renarin too much.

there are several things, Renarin did which could have turned out horribley wrong.

 

 

for example, if his opponent in Adolins duel would have realy fought Renarin, he could be dead/crippled(ok he could heal from the Shardblade, but he does not know that)

Renarin knew he couldnt realy fight in there, idk what he thought joining. he also prevented someone else from joining/helping.

so he was very lucky.

 

 

with the spies from Sedeas wife around, the numbers on the wall could have gone very bad too.

or just think about the paranoid King.

 

 

comming forward as surge binder could have turned the Highprices to Dalinars favor.

this could have saved the Kingdom, turned the war.(potentiualy saving thousends of lifes)

(or not who knows )

 

later at the Parshendi battle he went alone to defend a bridge. he cant realy fight and is doing it again.

 

 

 

being a high ranking nobel - in this case, even high up in the succession to the throne, 

means obligations to the ppl and his family.

so dont get into mortal danger if you can help it - especially if you cant do much.

 

tell his fam about his surgebinding, even if its bad - what if it would force him to go bad all the way?

and he never told anyone?

 

he has some of the most understanding ppl in the world in his fam, even a world wide accepted heretic.

some of the best scholars too.

 

 

if he would be any lighteyes of lower rank, i would be more ready to agree with you, but he is not.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Crysanja

[happyman]

Crysjana, I don't think you appreciate just how hard it is for a naturally shy introvert who has been told he is useless his whole life to try to affect the world around him, no matter what is at stake.  His comments to Kaladin when he joins Bridge 4 are the most honest things I think we have heard from him, and I'm guessing that that's partly because he thought Kaladin would be the most likely to listen  (and he wasn't wrong, was he?)

 

Revealing himself as a radiant to the others was probably harder on him than the same thing was on Kaladin.  He's so scared, Dalinar even notices.  And just like you, Dalinar wonders what the problem is; he's never had that kind of problem.

 

The second time I read that scene, my respect for Renarin jumped up a lot.

[Aminar]

I know 0 introverts with families as supportive as Renarins who would be ashamed of talking with their family to the point Renarin your describing. Renarin's family, loss of his mother aside is near ideal. I feel like that gets ignored. Renarin isn't living some insurmountable challenge. He has a damned good life and appreciates it. Appreciate with him instead of making him out to be some kind of terribly suffering damaged wretch. His life is likely better than 90% of the people on this forum.(Money, family, an eccentric reputation, and a minor disorder.

[EvilNuff]

Think about the culture of Roshar compared to our cultures in our world.  In our world being supportive is important for people like Renarin.  However, in Roshar he *is* a liability.  His family has been *too* supportive of him.  They should not have given him shards, they should not have catered to his warrior desires.  Yes, absolutely Renarin is incredibly brave!  But he should never have been put in that position by his family.  Dalinar should have nipped his warrior aspirations in the bud years ago.

 

Renarin being brave is indisputable and yet also each instance was incredibly stupid and probably harmful.  The Chasmfiend hunt, he distracted the real warriors and didn't actually help.  He wasn't able to help.  That isn't his fault but distracting them IS his fault.  The duel in WoR, he actively prevented someone else from joining and only his pitiful nature prevented him from being killed or crippled.  And yes, it was pity plain and simple that kept him alive.  

 

If Renarin were a better person, if he truly wanted to help his family, then he would have long ago given up the warrior aspirations.  He would have done something to actually help his family rather than hold them back.  Please open your eyes about how harmful he has been to the Kholins.  He has been a boat anchor around their necks dragging them down.

[TNine]

I found it kind of funny whenever Renarin popped up. I tend to kind of forget about him, but then he suddenly comes up in the most random situation. Him joining Bridge Four is both completely random and completely understandable, you can see the thought process behind it even if you don't really see how he came to that conclusion.

I did not realize that Renarin was supposed to be autistic, didn't really think it was necessary to explain his actions, actually. He had the poor misfortune of being born to definitely not be a soldier in a military family. His father was considered one of the greatest military leaders and fighters of the time. His brother is a natural leader and best duelist in the country. Considering who Dalinar keeps around him, I imagine that most of the men whom Renarin grew up with were military men. He was effectively brought up believing that weakness was the same thing as uselessness. Combined with a natural social awkwardness, is it any surprise he came out like he did?

[Crysanja]

joining bridge 4 is again something without any thought to his obligations.

 

 

it is propably good for him, but what would happen, if Adolin is somehow prevented to succeed Dalinar as Highprince?

 

Dalinar fears Assassins could go for his family.

what if Andolin dies on a gemheart run?

or in one of thouse duels?

 

they allready have a weak footing with the High court.

and with the core of their army gone?

if Renarin would become sole heir - playing/joining "slaves"

how should this work out?

 

 

ok as "known" Radiant it is something else, but its not like he knew.

 

 

with a few tiny little changes to the storyline, he could be the Highprince, and successor to the Kingdom allready.

(no Kaladin - Sedeas reteat killed Dalinar/Adolin), and the revolt at Kolinar killing the current successor.

 

 

 

you all say he is intelligent, some say very.

but he seems not to use it alot.

[flinn]

Shallan send Pattern to help Renarin in the duel, maybe the opponent didnt hear the Shardblade at all.

 

i think you protect Renarin too much.

there are several things, Renarin did which could have turned out horribley wrong.

 

 

for example, if his opponent in Adolins duel would have realy fought Renarin, he could be dead/crippled(ok he could heal from the Shardblade, but he does not know that)

Renarin knew he couldnt realy fight in there, idk what he thought joining. he also prevented someone else from joining/helping.

so he was very lucky.

 

 

with the spies from Sedeas wife around, the numbers on the wall could have gone very bad too.

or just think about the paranoid King.

 

 

comming forward as surge binder could have turned the Highprices to Dalinars favor.

this could have saved the Kingdom, turned the war.(potentiualy saving thousends of lifes)

(or not who knows )

 

later at the Parshendi battle he went alone to defend a bridge. he cant realy fight and is doing it again.

 

 

 

being a high ranking nobel - in this case, even high up in the succession to the throne, 

means obligations to the ppl and his family.

so dont get into mortal danger if you can help it - especially if you cant do much.

 

tell his fam about his surgebinding, even if its bad - what if it would force him to go bad all the way?

and he never told anyone?

 

he has some of the most understanding ppl in the world in his fam, even a world wide accepted heretic.

some of the best scholars too.

 

 

if he would be any lighteyes of lower rank, i would be more ready to agree with you, but he is not.

 So far I have disagreed with just about everything you have posted in this thread. Most seems like a real reach to discredit Renarin.

 

 Right off the top, do you not see the contradiction in "he shouldnt put himself in mortal danger" because both his father the high prince and his brother the heir are already busy putting themselves in mortal danger at every turn.... Shouldn't Adolin be the one who shouldn't put himself in mortal danger?

Edited March 8, 2014 by flinn

[Seloun]

Dalinar makes an interesting observation near the end of the book, when he sends Renarin off on an errand:

 

 

Renarin went eagerly to obey the order. He seemed to want something he could do.

 

He’s one of the Knights Radiant , Dalinar thought, watching him go. I’ll probably need to stop sending him on errands.

 

Renarin seems happiest when he's following someone's directions. Besides the obvious Bridge Four scenes, in the scene with him and Shallan when they're trying to figure out the Oathgate, we see him somewhat passively following Shallan's commands. I'm wondering if this is indicative of something systematic (e.g. as Truthwatcher) or just a result of his traumas. I don't recall having that impression about his character in WoK, though this observation didn't really click for me in WoR until Dalinar specifically mentioned it, either.

[IllNsickly]

Let me start with, I like Renarin and i want to see him come into his own. I am not bashing him, not even a little. I am an extrovert, muchly. I make friends with people wherever people are. Introverts are a challenge to make friends with, but seeing them start to open up is kind of rewarding.

But, it isnt just Vorinism that says seeing the future is of the Voidbringers. Lil Miss Syl says it too. When i read that part, it immediately struck me.

If it was just Vorinism, i could just brush it off.. Syl said it too, though. I can't find the quote, but it was in WoK. I am sure i read it.

[Crysanja]

idk how you can agree with Renarin, that it is a good idear to join the duel.

unless he could see the outcome of the duel, with him joning and without doing so.

 

its not like they cant hurt each other, and the opponents have nothing to loose.

 

 

if he can see alot of things from the future then it changes things.

 

 

but just from a normal perspective, thouse things are silly and dangerous.