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Wit Beyond Measure

[OB] Navani Bonds the Sibling

33 posts in this topic

There are a couple of things to considerate:

- First of all, if the Sibling is the Force that allows Urithuru to properly work (likely), there is no need for him bond with Someone to make the city works.

- second, the Bondsmith's Spren are bound like the others by the order's ideals. So regardless of hobby and profession, a Bondsmith need to be in line with the Bondsmith's mantra.

So I could see Navani or another One able to find about the Sibling and maybe awake him but this doesn't mean that person is going to bond him.

Personally I don't see Navani as a Bondsmith's type, in this Mr. T fits Better the description...but yet It could be' every kind of Person.

I also feel unlikely the "three way bond" described in the OP but this is the last issue.

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Hi, @Yata.  Here is the book evidence as I see it.

Quote

“The records below,” Navani said, “speak of this tower like a living thing. With a heart of emerald and ruby, and now these veins of garnet.”

...“If this tower was alive,” Dalinar said, “then it’s dead now.”

“Or sleeping. But if that’s the case, I have no idea how to wake it. We’ve tried infusing the heart like a fabrial, even had Renarin try to push Stormlight into it. Nothing’s worked.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1021). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Above, we have Urithiru sleeping.

Dalinar conversing with the Stormfather:

Quote

"The Nightwatcher is like you. Are there others, though? Spren like you, or the Nightwatcher? Spren that are shadows of gods?”

There is … a third sibling. They are not with us.

“In hiding?”

No. Slumbering.

“Tell me more.”

No.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 1038-1039). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

So the third sibling - or Sibling - is also slumbering, implying a connection to Urithiru and it's fabrial-like power.  Here, we also know that we have three especially godlike spren:  The Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and a third "sibling" who is likely the Sibling.

Quote

But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.  --WoR epithet

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 499). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

So one of the three Bondsmiths has to almost constantly be at Urithiru, probably due to the nature of the specific spren that this Bondsmith always bonds.

Quote

“Are there others like me out there?” he finally asked.

Not right now, and there can ever be only three. One for each of us.

“Three?” Dalinar said. “Three spren who make Bondsmiths. You … and Cultivation are two?”

The Stormfather actually laughed. You would have a difficult time making her your spren. I should like to see you try it.

“Then who?”

My siblings need not concern you.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 639). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

So this quote heavily implies that the three Bondsmith spren are the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and the Sibling.  If the Sibling is one of the Bondsmith spren, it is likely we will see the Sibling bonded to some Bondsmith by the end of the series.

And from the Coppermind:

Quote

They [the Bondsmiths] form a Nahel Bond with one of three unique spren: the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and (presumably) the Sibling.

Why Navani?  Well, this evidence is more subjective. 

Jasnah might be equally knowledgeable of fabrials, of course, but the Soulcasting she does is all with a fake fabrial.  And she recommends that Shallan's fabrial be fixed by Navani - not herself - when they get to the Shattered Plains, describing Navani as a renowned artifabrian.  Jasnah isn't so much about binding folks together.  And why would we want to tie an Elsecaller down to one single location, nullifying her Transportation surge, taking her out of the fighting, and keeping her from the Elsecaller task of hiding the perfect gems?  Though one could theoretically bond more than one spren, it seems like the Sibling would cancel most of Ivory's benefits.

In Navani's only chapter, Pieces of a Fabrial (Ch 96), we see Navani bringing together all of the leaders at Urithiru, designing their chair-carrying tradition so she could study them, listening to the others and constantly asking herself how she can bring order from this chaos.  The entire chapter seems to support Navani as one who is growing into a lady who can bond people together.  Here is a little bit:

Quote

Order from chaos. How could she bring order to this chaos? She stopped fretting, and tried to listen to them. She studied the chairs they’d brought, the tone of their voices. Their fears, hidden behind what they demanded or requested.

The shape of it started to make sense to her. Right now, this room was full of building materials. Pieces of a fabrial. Each monarch, each kingdom, was one piece. Dalinar had gathered them, but he hadn’t formed them.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 902). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

So Dalinar gathered but didn't form the coalition.  Navani starts to do that herself in this chapter, particularly after this quote.  I can't help but wonder if one of her oaths might be, I will bring order to the chaos.

Lastly, from WoB:

Quote

The main characters of the first part of the Stormlight are Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar. Two more flashback character (Eshonai and Szeth) can be considered important characters without as many viewpoints, though in the above outline, I'd have listed them as tertiary characters in terms of number of viewpoints.

The actual tertiary characters are Jasnah, Adolin, Navani, and a few that I can't mention as it will be spoilers. These get significant screen time, but only have viewpoints here and there in the first five books. Jasnah, as I've said, grows more important in the back five. Others do as well.

And then, as I said in the original post, we have Navani's chapter symbol as a fabrial whereas Jasnah's is Shadesmar, Shallan's is Pattern, Kal's is a cape in the wind (implying Windrunner), and Adolin's is himself and Maya.  So many if not most chapter symbols relate to Order or spren somehow.  

Edited by Wit Beyond Measure
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@Wit Beyond Measure I believe you misunderstood me.
I wasn't deny a link between the Sibling and Urithuru (also if not confirmed yet), I said simply that if the Sibling is the entity that made Urithuru works, He/she be bound to someone is not a requirement for work also as Urithuru's heart.

So I could see them made Urithuru to live again as plot relevant...But this not imply someone (Navani or someone else) will bond the Sibling.

I also (but here I am not sure if you were answering to me or someone else) said I see all the Navani's passion (pun intended) for Fabrial meaningless for the argument of the Sibling's bond. It's simply not how the Nahel Bond works, Dalinar becomed the Stormfather's radiant not a Stormwarden because his hobby/work is related to the Storms.

I don't see her as a Bondsmith type of person, She is a Fabrial expert (and I honestly like her as character) but this doesn't change the relevant things to me.

Navani and her team will probably discover something about the Sibling during her researches into Urithuru and maybe they will also be able to awaken him but this doesn't mean that some of them will bond him/her.

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On 6.1.2018 at 9:17 AM, dvoraen said:

Honestly, I see Navani as more likely to be a Bondsmith with the Nightwatcher

I am fairly certain that the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith is going to be a listener. Either Rlain or somebpody introduced/fleshed out in Eshonai's flashbacks. Turning the newly awakened singers away from Odium and the Fused will require a lot of cultivation, growth and transformation, which would be very much in Nightwatcher's purview.

On 6.1.2018 at 9:17 AM, dvoraen said:

For one, why did the Sibling go dormant?  The gemstone (Stormlight?) archive suggests the Sibling did not choose to do so, but something led to it. 

Yes, and the Stormfather said that the Sibling had been hurt by humans. It is also all but certain that Melishi wasn't Stormfather's bondsmith, because dying Honor was in the middle of frantically changing SF at the time. He could have been the Nightwatcher's, of course, but IMHO the Sibling fits best. And the thing that hurt the Sibling, then, would have been BAM's imprisonement and the parsh being separated from their Identity as a result. Melishi unintentionally divided on a massive scale  instead of uniting and hurt his spren.

Alternatively, Sibling's withdrawal could have been part of the Honor's plan. I mean, there are odd contradictions between Honor telling the Radiants that they would destroy their world and basically causing the Recreance, and him then leaving instructions for their re-founding at a later date and claiming in these messages that they were the only hope Roshar had. Maybe it was a long-term gambit, like the one seen in the first Mistborn trilogy and there is more information hidden with the Sibling.

18 hours ago, Yata said:


I wasn't deny a link between the Sibling and Urithuru (also if not confirmed yet), I said simply that if the Sibling is the entity that made Urithuru works, He/she be bound to someone is not a requirement for work also as Urithuru's heart.

According to the epigraphs from the in-world WoR in WoR, one Bondsmith always stayed with Urithiru. It would seem likely that it was the Siblings' Bondsmith and that this god-spren almost continuosly had one, while Urithiru was inhabited. Stormfather's and Nightwatcher's limited understanding of humans also suggests that they hadn't been bonded very often - maybe only during the Desolations? I mean, they already exist and are sapient in the physical realm, they shouldn't have lost as much information when their Knights died as the other Nahel spren.

18 hours ago, Yata said:

I also (but here I am not sure if you were answering to me or someone else) said I see all the Navani's passion (pun intended) for Fabrial meaningless for the argument of the Sibling's bond. It's simply not how the Nahel Bond works, Dalinar becomed the Stormfather's radiant not a Stormwarden because his hobby/work is related to the Storms.

Dalinar, even in his worst days, was someone for whom promises were very important. He was also a lot like a force of nature and, oddly enough, liked to go out during the storms. After Gavilar's death and his visit to the Nightwatcher, he also began to align himself more and more strongly with the Radiants' and Honor's ethos. And the Stormfather was under constraint to pick somebody - and most likely somebody who was already in a leadership position.

18 hours ago, Yata said:

Navani and her team will probably discover something about the Sibling during her researches into Urithuru and maybe they will also be able to awaken him but this doesn't mean that some of them will bond him/her.

As we have seen with Kaladin/Syl, Shallan/Pattern and now possibly Adolin and Maya, bonding is one way of awakening/healing a slumbering/hurt spren. We don't know if there are others.

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6 hours ago, Isilel said:

According to the epigraphs from the in-world WoR in WoR, one Bondsmith always stayed with Urithiru. It would seem likely that it was the Siblings' Bondsmith and that this god-spren almost continuosly had one, while Urithiru was inhabited. Stormfather's and Nightwatcher's limited understanding of humans also suggests that they hadn't been bonded very often - maybe only during the Desolations? I mean, they already exist and are sapient in the physical realm, they shouldn't have lost as much information when their Knights died as the other Nahel spren.

This not implies the Sibling needs to be bonded to grant his/her purpose into Urithuru. As the Radiants and their Spren need to be relative close to mantain the Bond, an hypotetical Sibling's Radiant can't leave Urithuru without one of those scenario happen:

1) He would lose his powers, exposing a key individual to many treats

2) The Sibling goes with him and Urithuru will litherally die because all its functions will stop.

Listen I am not saying, it is in this way...I am just making notice that implication is not an implication but just a possibility.

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

Dalinar, even in his worst days, was someone for whom promises were very important. He was also a lot like a force of nature and, oddly enough, liked to go out during the storms. After Gavilar's death and his visit to the Nightwatcher, he also began to align himself more and more strongly with the Radiants' and Honor's ethos. And the Stormfather was under constraint to pick somebody - and most likely somebody who was already in a leadership position.

This is the same thing I said, Dalinar's attitude not his profession/hobby was the Radiancy's key (and the same happened with Gavilar before him). Simply "what you like to do" is not relevant for a Nahel Bond, "who you are" matters....Many Lightweavers were artists but because that kind of people often has also artist inclination. Not every Artist will be a Lightweaver's candidate and not only an Artist could become a Lightweaver (just watch Elk).

I simply said Navani didn't show any Bondsmith's attitude. I like her as character but I will not faking she is an egoistic person who doesn't place her interests before many others things.

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

As we have seen with Kaladin/Syl, Shallan/Pattern and now possibly Adolin and Maya, bonding is one way of awakening/healing a slumbering/hurt spren. We don't know if there are others.

We didn't see any Slumbering Spren be awakened by a Bond. Oathbroken Spren has a place of them ripped out and could be restored to a degree (I believe they will be never truly healed without the original Knight) if some other human provides them a good anchor to the physical and is aligned with them.


Pattern was never slumbered or something like that. He was fully aware in the CR with his bond with Shallan mostly evaporate.

Syl was Oathbroken by Kal and then easily restored.

Maya is Oarhbroken (or in a grey zone) and it will be probably hardly restored to a degree by Adolin.

None of those cases is applicable to a spren who slowly start to decrease his awareness (I believe it's a decent definition of "Slumbering")

 

Again, I am not saying the theory have to be wrong, simply that it's a speculation and there is not an implication of proof about

Edited by Yata
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On 1/8/2018 at 5:37 AM, Isilel said:

I am fairly certain that the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith is going to be a listener. Either Rlain or somebpody introduced/fleshed out in Eshonai's flashbacks. Turning the newly awakened singers away from Odium and the Fused will require a lot of cultivation, growth and transformation, which would be very much in Nightwatcher's purview.

The reason I claim Navani potentially bonding with the Nightwatcher, is that she's encouraging talents in other people.  Cultivating their expertise, you might say.  She has been gaterhing people to work together, using their personal gifts, knowledge, talents, and so on, to accomplish goals.  The biggest demonstration of this would be in her proposals for how Azir and Thaylenah would fit in to the coalition.  "You guys are good at this, you can use it this way."  Fabrial science is the most prominent way she's done this, but Oathbringer showed it's not just 'for science' with how she operates.  She even encourages people to defer to others' expertise, in that coalition meeting.  A boon ('you get sovereignty over this') and a curse ('but you'll accept that they get to do that').

 

On a completely different note, I have this strange feeling that the Sibling is going to be a conjoined twin; half Honor, half Cultivation.  I find it strange that the Stormfather says "There is … a third sibling. They are not with us."  Why plural, since the subject of that response was the Sibling?

Edited by dvoraen
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10 hours ago, dvoraen said:

The reason I claim Navani potentially bonding with the Nightwatcher, is that she's encouraging talents in other people.  Cultivating their expertise, you might say.  She has been gaterhing people to work together, using their personal gifts, knowledge, talents, and so on, to accomplish goals.  The biggest demonstration of this would be in her proposals for how Azir and Thaylenah would fit in to the coalition.  "You guys are good at this, you can use it this way."  Fabrial science is the most prominent way she's done this, but Oathbringer showed it's not just 'for science' with how she operates.  She even encourages people to defer to others' expertise, in that coalition meeting.  A boon ('you get sovereignty over this') and a curse ('but you'll accept that they get to do that').

 

On a completely different note, I have this strange feeling that the Sibling is going to be a conjoined twin; half Honor, half Cultivation.  I find it strange that the Stormfather says "There is … a third sibling. They are not with us."  Why plural, since the subject of that response was the Sibling?

Another, easier assumption is that the sibling is neither male nor female, hence third person pronoun. And since English doesn't have a singular non-gendered pronoun, "they" it is.

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