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Wit Beyond Measure

[OB] Navani Bonds the Sibling

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Radiant are made by their ideals not their professions.

This is the tendency of the fandom to think the only characters that will matter are the character we know right now.

We have only three bondsmiths, why would give one of those roles to a vapid character like navani? I would rather it be a character from another, something not human, or from another shard world, or something more unique. Remmeber this is the god-spren that is supposedly slumbering, the character to awaken it should be just as interesting as dalinar.

Also its an extremely lazy choice, I can accept that the bridgemen can be windrunners because of the nature of kaladin's resonance, but navani is just laziness.

Also navani isn't the one who invents all those fabrial,but her ardent. Sure she is part of the process, but not actually all that necessary.

 

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2 minutes ago, mosaab said:

Also navani isn't the one who invents all those fabrial,but her ardent. Sure she is part of the process, but not actually all that necessary.

I think that you are severally underestimating Navani. She's anything but Vapid. And as much as she downplays her role, she heavily involved in the creation process of her fabrials. 

Yes she has a team to help work out the particulars, but so do many modern inventors. The basic concept, including the gem types and surges are her ideas, and the others help to refine them. 

There's a reason that most of her illustrations, complete with functional explanations, that we have translated from the women's script are from Navani's journal. 

I don't particularly like the idea of her as a Bondsmith, but that is not a failing of her intellect. 

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Navani is great. Her writing convinces the Aziz to join the  coalition, she holds it together when her husband completely falls apart. She is the brain behind almost every fabrial we see.

She is incredibly passionate, constantly pushing back against societies norms for a royal widow.

But...I would prefer another Bondsmith, a new character. Partly because that Bondsmith would be tied to Urithiru permernantly and I think that is a waste of Navani. 

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Navani is not vapid... On the contrary, she's clearly very intelligent and is a driving force for science and scholarship in her domain.

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While some people may not like Navani for various reasons, I think calling her vapid is quite off base.

Quote
vap·id
 
adjective: vapid
  1. offering nothing that is stimulating or challenging.

If nothing else, Navani is very inventive, has quite in-depth knowledge of fabrials and is very intelligent.  She certainly challenges current thinking and conventions quite often.  I think she might be the one to figure out how Urithiru works, but I agree that I don't think she'd be a very good bondsmith for it.  She has too much else to be doing to be stuck at Urithiru.

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9 hours ago, mosaab said:

Radiant are made by their ideals not their professions.

This is the tendency of the fandom to think the only characters that will matter are the character we know right now.

We have only three bondsmiths, why would give one of those roles to a vapid character like navani? I would rather it be a character from another, something not human, or from another shard world, or something more unique. Remmeber this is the god-spren that is supposedly slumbering, the character to awaken it should be just as interesting as dalinar.

Also its an extremely lazy choice, I can accept that the bridgemen can be windrunners because of the nature of kaladin's resonance, but navani is just laziness.

Also navani isn't the one who invents all those fabrial,but her ardent. Sure she is part of the process, but not actually all that necessary.

 

 

I think you're just dissuading their points by way of hatred for a character.

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14 hours ago, mosaab said:

This is the tendency of the fandom to think the only characters that will matter are the character we know right now.

This is one post which i agree with 100%, Stormlight is still young with 7 more books yet to come. We will have many more significant character's being introduced in rosher 

 

15 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

If the Sibling's bondsmith abandoned his or her oaths during the Recreance, that may explain why the Sibling and Urithiru have slumbered ever since, awaiting a new bondsmith to return.  One of the WoR epithets tells us that only one of the bondsmiths is always with Urithiru, probably because the Sibling bondsmith will need to stay with her spren that will be captured inside Urithiru's gemheart, powering Urithiru.  

If it was all about Stormfather's siblings, i think he would have mentioned it somewhere in his conversations with dalinar about the tower but he didn't so i don't think that Urithiru is waiting for a bondsmith. We might know more about is soon since now humans have Shalash in their possession who is one of the Heralds who are not yet insane.

As for Navani being a bondsmith, it might have been a good idea if Dalinar was not already one, Navani is more likely to play his political advisor then his military aid.

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Navani as a bondsmith would be amazing. I love this idea.

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I dunno. For Bondsmiths, I’d like to see a more diverse crowd than just the Kholins. The Radiants represent all of Roshar. Dalinar is trying to Unite everyone against Odium, but can he if most of the knight Radiants are Alethi, and especially Khonlins? Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah, and soon Shallan (married via Adolin) are all Kholins, and Khaladin and Szeth are both sworn to him. That’s already more than half of the order heads. The bondsmiths are essentially the leaders of the knights Radiant, with the goal of uniting the people of Roshar. As the coalition expands, I think we’ll see more people from Azir, Thaylan, and Ja Keved, get involved. What if someone else, perhaps from the team who made the half shards, or someone from Azir, discovers the secrets of the Urithiru fabriel? We have seven books to go. 

But, I like the theory that Urithiru is the third bondable “godspren.” I just hope that either it’s someone other than Navani, or that we get a really good character arc from her first. I’m not yet invested enough in her as a character to want to see her take a huge role in leading the Knights Radiant.

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6 hours ago, TheWarriorPoet said:
21 hours ago, mosaab said:

This is the tendency of the fandom to think the only characters that will matter are the character we know right now.

This is one post which i agree with 100%, Stormlight is still young with 7 more books yet to come. We will have many more significant character's being introduced in rosher 

 

Let's go easy on the fandom. It's difficult to build theories around characters we haven't met yet. And, anyway, when you look at what has happened so far in WoR and OB, nearly all of the characters who "mattered" in those books were in fact known to us previously. So, assuming someone bonds with the Sibling within the next two books, the odds are actually pretty good that our future Bondsmith is going to someone we've met already.

 

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1 hour ago, Varion said:

Let's go easy on the fandom. It's difficult to build theories around characters we haven't met yet. And, anyway, when you look at what has happened so far in WoR and OB, nearly all of the characters who "mattered" in those books were in fact known to us previously. So, assuming someone bonds with the Sibling within the next two books, the odds are actually pretty good that our future Bondsmith is going to someone we've met already.

Absolutely.  To an extent, all stories do this.  Those who are significant to the plot most often turn out to be significant in other ways.  Luke is secretly Darth Vader's son and Leia's brother.  Jon Snow, the famous bastard, is actually the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.  It's kind of a meme.

I would say that Sanderson follows this pattern more than almost any author I've read.  I've heard folks talk about the gardener (one who grows a story organically as he writes) versus the architect (one who first deliberately structures the story and plans and plans and plans before writing).  Sanderson is the biggest architect I've ever read, I think.  Everything is tied together and built on top of existing material.  Probably ten percent of what Sanderson writes is only truly relevant when you are rereading the story because he places, at the very beginning, so much of what will be crucial at the very end - making the famous Brandon avalanche possible.

For the Heralds, we were introduced to modern-day Jezrien, Ishar, Shalash, Battar, and Nale well before knowing they were Heralds - at least half of them, though probably more.  For the Knights Radiant, we were introduced to all but Lift and Malata well before they were revealed to be Radiant.  And it isn't just Stormlight, either.  Warbreaker

Spoiler

talks a great deal about the five Scholars from the beginning, and we hear about every single one of the scholars in the story (most at the beginning) before the end reveals they are the five Scholars.

That said, we are far from guaranteed that the other two Bondsmiths will be previously known to us, but it looks like 82% of the current Radiants were known to us before being revealed as Radiant (Jasnah, Renarin, Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar, Szeth, Teft, Lopen, and Vathah) and at least 50% of the Heralds.  Odds are good that we'll already know the primary Radiants, though I imagine there will be many new Radiants as secondary characters whom we won't know well.

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On 26/12/2017 at 9:50 PM, Greywatch said:

Navani is not vapid... On the contrary, she's clearly very intelligent and is a driving force for science and scholarship in her domain.

Technically Skybreakers are the vapid ones. They have vapour as their essence.

 

I'm not sure about Navani as Pious and Guiding. Kadash or Rushu in different ways seem more likely.

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3 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

 

  Hide contents

 

That said, we are far from guaranteed that the other two Bondsmiths will be previously known to us, but it looks like 82% of the current Radiants were known to us before being revealed as Radiant (Jasnah, Renarin, Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar, Szeth, Teft, Lopen, and Vathah) and at least 50% of the Heralds.  Odds are good that we'll already know the primary Radiants, though I imagine there will be many new Radiants as secondary characters whom we won't know well.

Not to mention Venli, almost Elhokar, and almost Eshonai

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On 26.12.2017 at 10:42 PM, Song said:

But...I would prefer another Bondsmith, a new character. Partly because that Bondsmith would be tied to Urithiru permernantly and I think that is a waste of Navani. 

IMHO, waking up Urithiru and bonding of the Sibling  will be an important plot-line in the next 2 books. It has already been hinted that it would be impossible to hold Urithiru long-term without access to it's full capabilities. This would mean that a prospective Bonsmith would have to be introduced and fleshed-out sufficiently for us to care about their struggles rather quickly, particularly given that anybody other than the big 3 gets few PoVs and that people like Venli, Szeth, etc. can't be ignored either. Given these constraints I really don't see how a new character could feasibly handle this in a satisfying manner.

And Navani stays in Urithiru almost full-time anyway, so it wouldn't be much of a change. Her pashion for fabrials, civil planning and documented affinity for keeping things together make her the best candidate for Sibling's Bondsmith so far. Who else is there? Queen Fen and Rock both have Bondsmithy inclinations, somewhat, but no particular connections to fabrials and both will be sorely needed in their homelands.

I am less than enthused that an Alethi noble couple will likely take 2 out of 3 spots... but that's nothing new, as I have also always been skeptical about so many Kholins becoming Radiants. That's how the cookie crumbles in this series, though.

Oh, and I am quite sure that the third Bondsmith is going to be a listener - most likely Rlain. Nothing less will suffice for making the unprecedented allaince between anti-Odium humans and singers, IMHO.

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I sincerely hope Navani does not become a Radiant. Too many Kholins already, with Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah, almost Elhokar and maybe Gavilar.

 

It waters down the story. It's no longer about a group of people who strive and must find each other. Instead, it's about lucking out and finding the One Correct Family.

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I doubt Navani will become a Radiant if only because Brandon will want to provide us non-Radiant characters involved in the main plot...

On the other hand, Jasnah is about equally well-suited as Navani to bond the Sibling if not more so.  She not only has knowledge of fabriels, but finding and learning the nature of Urithiru has basically been her life goal.  She may already have a connection to the place forged from her searching.

Brandon has essentially said that it is possible to bond to more than one spren, but there are limits, and it is complicated, and read and find out.  This leads me to believe that it is a thing that is likely to happen over the course of the series.  I'm currently guessing that Jasnah will bond the Sibling, though this may be an incomplete bond as she is divided between her bond with it and her bond with Ivory.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/156-words-of-radiance-lexington-signing/#e2841

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/221-words-of-radiance-omaha-signing/#e6202

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/259-oathbringer-leeds-signing/#e8735

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218-words-of-radiance-chicago-signing/#e6647

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16 hours ago, Kaleid said:

I sincerely hope Navani does not become a Radiant. Too many Kholins already, with Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah, almost Elhokar and maybe Gavilar.

 

Gavilar, in particular, was an interesting case because he completely messed up and failed despite, yes, having been chosen as a recepient of the visions and even possessing characteristics that should have allowed him to become a Bondsmith. But he took a complete left turn. Elhokar, I didn't like that he was succeeding, as his character didn't evolve _that_ much, and we saw no hint of artistic inclinations from him. OTOH, it has been established that cryptics sometimes bond wrong people, like that one warrior, who was unable to progress.

But as to people striving to come together - those characters need some fleshing out for us to care. Opportunities for which are rather limited with the 3 main PoVs hogging the lion's share of the text. _And_ it has been stated that proximity to a Radiant makes it much more likely that a person will be looked at, and, if compatible, bonded by a nahel spren. Hence also the squireship system that serves to properly attune a person to the Ideals and to bring them to the attention of the spren.

Waking up of the Sibling to unlock full capacity of Urithiru has been foreshadowed as an important  plot arc for the next 2 books. The character who is going to do that should have already been introduced and somewhat established. So, who?

 

11 hours ago, Tiak said:

I doubt Navani will become a Radiant if only because Brandon will want to provide us non-Radiant characters involved in the main plot...

But does he actually want that? Because if so, OB was a spectacular missed opportunity, with both Adolin and Elhokar positioned to be involved and also being people whose world was turned upside down the most by the emergence of the Radiants.

I do agree with you that people who are currently in other Orders may become Bondsmiths. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if that is how it mostly happened before the Recreance, because Bondsmiths require a certain level of life experience to be able to guide effectively and at the same time are too unique to have squires. Which would have led to all the best candidates in Urithiru being snapped by other Orders long before they attained the necessary qualifications for becoming a Bondsmith or a position became vacant. 

OTOH, I really don't see Jasnah as one. Frankly, she already has too much on her plate as queen-in-exile and the only currently existing Elsecaller. She needs to be exploring Shadesmar and talking some sense into the Nahel spren, as well as figuring out new ways to deal with a Desolation and counter-act the Everstorm, not ruling a displaced nation or running Urithiru. There is nobody else who can do what she needs to do as an Elsecaller and a brilliant thinker in order to give anti-Odium alliance a chance.

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I can see the arguments against Navani becoming a Bondsmith, but I think she would be the perfect person to bond Urithiru (assuming Urithiru is the Sibling).

An interesting thought I had though, there are typically three Bondsmiths. Sometimes less, but never more. There are also three Realms. What if the three Bondsmiths all need to be in a different Realm to each other?

Think about it...

Stormfather is a mixture of Super-Spren and Tanavast's spirit, and requires Dalinar, a being in the physical realm, to bond him.

Nightwatcher is, I suspect, being trained up as Cultivation's successor, just in case Odium finds and kills her. I think she will need someone in the cognitive realm to bond her.

And finally, the Sibling, who I am going to continue to assume is Urithiru. Like Shardblades, like Shardplate (we assume), Urithiru is a Spren from the cognitive realm, which has manifested fully into the physical realm. All it needs to make it functional is a link to someone in the spirit realm.

The more I think about this, the more holes I see in it. Still, it's a theory. What do you guys reckon?

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A bit of indirect evidence possibly in support...

Some very old WOBs mention Navani as being a flashback POV character, but this has since been changed (I believe she was replaced by either Eshonai or Ash).  Navani binding the Sibling would actually fit this change rather well.  As another Bondsmith she would remain central to the story, but would be excluded as a flashback POV option due to Dalinar already being the Bondsmith flashback POV and each flashback POV book covering a different KR order.

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The biggest argument for Navani is that we need urithiru to function, and there isn't enough time to introduce a new character. But the stormfather and nightwatcher have been functioning in their capacity without a bond for millennia, and the nahal bond doesn't really affect how the spren function in their capacity. So we really don't need a new Bondsmith for urithiru to work.B)

 

Edited by mosaab
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Honestly, I see Navani as more likely to be a Bondsmith with the Nightwatcher (since the Nightwatcher is basically confirmed by the Stormfather to be the second 'god spren').  Navani plants the ideas, stimulates mental development, looks at the underlying structure to see how it works and will develop.  Dare I say, she "cultivates" joint innovation and discovery.  Her behaviors have been rather along the lines of the Second Ideal that Dalinar swore, albeit in a more subtle way.  I say this with the understanding that I'm making a very big assumption that Bondsmiths have similar Ideals.  I suspect the underlying themes are the same (unity), but the Siblings each have their own very different interpretation on how that is accomplished.

 

That said, it's still just as likely she could potentially end up bonded to the Sibling, but there's so much we don't know about the third Sibling that it's really us shooting in the dark.  For one, why did the Sibling go dormant?  The gemstone (Stormlight?) archive suggests the Sibling did not choose to do so, but something led to it.  So many questions, and so many years before answers.

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Mr. T and Navani were my bets for the next two bondsmiths (for Cultivation and the Sibling respectively). Never really had much in the way of text evidence, just intuition. That being said, if there were a team of fabrial experts running around trying to unlock the secrets of Urithiru it would make sense for one of them to find and bind the Sibling. So if not Navani then maybe one of her ardents?

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I can see kadash as the Urithiru bondsmith, while the coalition is led by a chief diplomat in Navani. I wouldn’t mind navani as bondsmith, actually, but I think kadash’s transformation from suffering in the midst of dalinar’s wrath to denouncing his heresy, to being his peer as a radiant himself would be a fascinating storyline. Plus, OB had some important interactions between the two that have set him up as a potentially important character. 

Edited by Bliev
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Navani is designing stormlight powered AIRSHIPS. I would be amazed if these don't feature in Stormlight 6-10 era.

Explain how that fits into a character being 'vapid'?

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