[OB][Warbreaker] I just finished Warbreaker _after_ reading Oathbringer

[Matt O]

I was really confused why people kept calling Szeth's sword "Nightblood".  I read all of the Stormlight books first and then decided to consume Warbreaker.  I just finished listening to Warbreaker on Audible.  Loved the narrator, I've never head her before, but she was awesome.

Now I feel like I need to go to the end of Words of Radiance and read the scene where Szeth receives his sword, and then read all of the Szeth scenes over again.  Nightblood's comments about Vasher to Szeth meant nothing to me so I kinda ignored them, figuring they were just meaningless lore to make the sword seem like it had some background.

 

[platnumkid]

The important thing to take away is:

"Nothing Brandon writes is meaningless"

[Greywatch]

And now you know that Vasher and Vivenna are in Oathbringer as well?

[Sliverofnone]

Some pretty serious Evil destroying, yah?

[Matt O]

8 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

And now you know that Vasher and Vivenna are in Oathbringer as well?

No, I never picked up on that.  Who?

[Greywatch]

6 minutes ago, Matt O said:

No, I never picked up on that.  Who?

Vasher is Zahel, and Vivenna is Azure.

[Toaster Retribution]

And flashback Dalinar is actually Tonk Fah. Hard to spot, that one.

[Everstorm Entropy]

20 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

And flashback Dalinar is actually Tonk Fah. Hard to spot, that one.

Whoa whoa whoa... you might need to elaborate on that one.  I just finished OB, so it's all a bit of a blur, but I definitely missed that.

[Toaster Retribution]

3 minutes ago, Everstorm Entropy said:

Whoa whoa whoa... you might need to elaborate on that one.  I just finished OB, so it's all a bit of a blur, but I definitely missed that.

Uh... sorry. It was a joke (about 45-50 percent of my posts are). Flashback Dalinar is just flashback Dalinar :-)

Edited December 26, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[KidWayne]

23 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

And flashback Dalinar is actually Tonk Fah. Hard to spot, that one.

This is an amusing, but somewhat confusing, joke. The humor is in the fact that both young Dalinar & Tonk Fah like to hurt people.

[Matt O]

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Vasher is Zahel, and Vivenna is Azure.

I am kinda stumped here.

I remember reading that there was something weird about Azure, that Kaladin noticed that she kept her arm covered by a cloak a lot and that she would whip the cloak around in a weird way.  I thought that was going to eventually be explained by the end of the book but it wasn't and I forgot about it.  How does the book clue us in that she is Vivenna?  Are we to assume that her "shardblade" is actually a sword more like Nightblood?

As for Zahel.. I barely remember anything about him.  Gruff sword master.. may wear a rope instead of a belt? (is that the only clue?)  Vasher is evidently a poor duelist so how could he become a sword master?  And why would he be content to live his life that way instead of Doing Cool Things ?

I think since I hadn't read Warbreaker first, for all of the Zahel and Azure scenes, I just ignored the clues dropped assuming that they were to be used to build on a future story arc, not give the informed reader a hidden message    I was actually expecting Azure to hook up with Adolin and Shallan to hook up with Kaladin, so I was surprised that Azure left the group.

[Kered]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

And flashback Dalinar is actually Tonk Fah. Hard to spot, that one.

I actually spit soda out of my noodle. You owe me a new shirt.

 

As for the topic, I read Warbreaker after WoK and WoR. I found out that Vasher and Nightblood already had a book by seeing it on the forums. It was pretty cool finding out that a interesting side character plays a big part in another book. I do wish that I had read Warbreaker before I read the Stormlight Archive. It would have been nice to have that "Oh crap, that's Vasher" moment. I also think it would have added to the already great ending of WoR when we see Nightblood. 

EDIT: Just realized I put "noodle" instead of "nose". No regrets. 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Kered

[RShara]

39 minutes ago, Matt O said:

I am kinda stumped here.

I remember reading that there was something weird about Azure, that Kaladin noticed that she kept her arm covered by a cloak a lot and that she would whip the cloak around in a weird way.  I thought that was going to eventually be explained by the end of the book but it wasn't and I forgot about it.  How does the book clue us in that she is Vivenna?  Are we to assume that her "shardblade" is actually a sword more like Nightblood?

As for Zahel.. I barely remember anything about him.  Gruff sword master.. may wear a rope instead of a belt? (is that the only clue?)  Vasher is evidently a poor duelist so how could he become a sword master?  And why would he be content to live his life that way instead of Doing Cool Things ?

I think since I hadn't read Warbreaker first, for all of the Zahel and Azure scenes, I just ignored the clues dropped assuming that they were to be used to build on a future story arc, not give the informed reader a hidden message    I was actually expecting Azure to hook up with Adolin and Shallan to hook up with Kaladin, so I was surprised that Azure left the group.

Zahel and Vivenna both use color metaphors.  Zahel is playing the game that Lightsong keeps winning (even though he doesn't know the rules) when you first encounter him.  He also mentions hoow he hasn't had someone talking in his head for a long while.  The physical description also matches.

Vinenna's Shardblade drains color, she has the crew in Shadesmar cut pieces of cloth into human shapes, and her haircolor and face change when she's not paying attention.  She also talks about how she was born into a ruling family and ran from her obligations.  And she knows Vasher.

[Matt O]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

Zahel and Vivenna both use color metaphors.  Zahel is playing the game that Lightsong keeps winning (even though he doesn't know the rules) when you first encounter him.  He also mentions hoow he hasn't had someone talking in his head for a long while.  The physical description also matches.

Vinenna's Shardblade drains color, she has the crew in Shadesmar cut pieces of cloth into human shapes, and her haircolor and face change when she's not paying attention.  She also talks about how she was born into a ruling family and ran from her obligations.  And she knows Vasher.

Thanks.  And why does she keep her arm covered?  I may need to go back and find the specific scenes, I just remember the book going out of its way to say that she was doing something odd with clothing during the battle on the wall where Kaladin kills the Fused in the sky.

[Toaster Retribution]

1 minute ago, Matt O said:

Thanks.  And why does she keep her arm covered?  I may need to go back and find the specific scenes, I just remember the book going out of its way to say that she was doing something odd with clothing during the battle on the wall where Kaladin kills the Fused in the sky.

She is using Awakening on the cloak to make it protect her, or grab her opponents.

[Matt O]

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

She is using Awakening on the cloak to make it protect her, or grab her opponents.

*sigh* Now I may have to go and re-read _all_ of the Azure scenes in addition to the Zahel and Szeth scenes.  I thought that stuff would eventually be explained!

[Toaster Retribution]

7 minutes ago, Matt O said:

*sigh* Now I may have to go and re-read _all_ of the Azure scenes in addition to the Zahel and Szeth scenes.  I thought that stuff would eventually be explained!

Welcome to the Cosmere.

[RShara]

22 minutes ago, Matt O said:

Thanks.  And why does she keep her arm covered?  I may need to go back and find the specific scenes, I just remember the book going out of its way to say that she was doing something odd with clothing during the battle on the wall where Kaladin kills the Fused in the sky.

Yeah, she's Awakening her cloak to help her in the battle.

[Govir]

1 hour ago, Matt O said:

How does the book clue us in that she is Vivenna?

Also, prior to Oathbringer's release, we got word from Sanderson that Vivenna would be making an appearance. So people were on the lookout for characters that could be tied back to her. I was looking for her, and only realized it when Kaladin and Azure were on the wall when their section was attacked. No idea why it clicked into place at that point (literally right when they nodded to each other before darting off in opposite directions to fight).

[Wit Beyond Measure]

I'm in the same boat!  I read WoK, WoR, and the Mistborn trilogy a year or so ago, all superficially via Audible.  When Oathbringer was released, I was crazy excited but in the middle of another series.  And so I wasn't able to start my WoK and WoR reread until after the OB release date.  On the reread, I was astounded by how "nothing Brandon writes is meaningless"!  I highlighted more than I had ever done in a book, taking all kinds of notes, as well.  I was dying to share the enthusiasm but didn't want to be spoiled so waited until after finishing OB to come join the fun here.  And then I realized that I really needed to read Edgedancer and Warbreaker, which I've just finished, and the rest of Mistborn and all of Ars Arcanum and Elantris (all on my to-do list).  But I think I'm going to reread OB before starting those.

Others have mentioned that Azure's sword is definitely mysterious:  not a Shardblade but as powerful.  Many suspect that her sword is a new and improved Nightblood - awakened metal that is sentient.

Quote

The highmarshal was of average height for an Alethi woman, maybe just under, and wore her hair straight and short, reaching halfway down her cheeks. Her eyes were orange, and she wore a side sword with a glistening silver basket hilt. That wasn’t Alethi design. Was it the aforementioned Shardblade? It did have an otherworldly look about it, but why wear it instead of dismissing it?

Regardless, the highmarshal was lean and grim, and had a couple of serious scars on her face. She wore gloves on both hands.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 697). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Darkness wore mondo gloves when handling Sword-nimi, and I always wondered why he didn't share this secret protection strategy with Szeth especially when Szeth almost died holding onto Sword-nimi, unable to let go and being drained of everything.  Vivenna always tried not touching Nightblood directly, wrapping him in a blanket whenever possible.

*********

So this is a bit off-topic from OB but on-topic for WB:  Denth was one of the five Scholars and surely a Returned, too, right?  Was he Vo, the progenitor of the Idrian royal family and the royal locks?  I know that Vasher says that all Returned had the ability to change their forms deliberately at will, but only those with the royal locks seemed so overpowered by this ability as to not be able to control it.  And it seems to me that Denth lost that control at the very end:

Quote

Denth shook, bleeding, and lost control. His hair suddenly bled to deep black, then blond, then an angry red.

Finally, the hair turned white with terror and stayed there. He stopped moving, life fading away, new Breaths and old both vanishing.

Sanderson, Brandon. Warbreaker (p. 631). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

It seems that, if he lost control, any appearance disguises would melt away to his true appearance.  But they wouldn't go through four different changes unless they were involuntarily reacting to his emotions as his life flashed before his eyes.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[Necessary Eagle]

I think he just lost control at that point because he was dying.

[Naurock]

7 hours ago, Matt O said:

As for Zahel.. I barely remember anything about him.  Gruff sword master.. may wear a rope instead of a belt? (is that the only clue?)  Vasher is evidently a poor duelist so how could he become a sword master?  

To be fair, Vasher was only a poor duelist against Denth. Vasher seemed to handle the palace guards and Lifeless just fine. I think it's hard to look good against a guy that can cut things so quickly that you can't even see him draw his sword.

[RShara]

2 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

I'm in the same boat!  I read WoK, WoR, and the Mistborn trilogy a year or so ago, all superficially via Audible.  When Oathbringer was released, I was crazy excited but in the middle of another series.  And so I wasn't able to start my WoK and WoR reread until after the OB release date.  On the reread, I was astounded by how "nothing Brandon writes is meaningless"!  I highlighted more than I had ever done in a book, taking all kinds of notes, as well.  I was dying to share the enthusiasm but didn't want to be spoiled so waited until after finishing OB to come join the fun here.  And then I realized that I really needed to read Edgedancer and Warbreaker, which I've just finished, and the rest of Mistborn and all of Ars Arcanum and Elantris (all on my to-do list).  But I think I'm going to reread OB before starting those.

Others have mentioned that Azure's sword is definitely mysterious:  not a Shardblade but as powerful.  Many suspect that her sword is a new and improved Nightblood - awakened metal that is sentient.

Darkness wore mondo gloves when handling Sword-nimi, and I always wondered why he didn't share this secret protection strategy with Szeth especially when Szeth almost died holding onto Sword-nimi, unable to let go and being drained of everything.  Vivenna always tried not touching Nightblood directly, wrapping him in a blanket whenever possible.

*********

So this is a bit off-topic from OB but on-topic for WB:  Denth was one of the five Scholars and surely a Returned, too, right?  Was he Vo, the progenitor of the Idrian royal family and the royal locks?  I know that Vasher says that all Returned had the ability to change their forms deliberately at will, but only those with the royal locks seemed so overpowered by this ability as to not be able to control it.  And it seems to me that Denth lost that control at the very end:

It seems that, if he lost control, any appearance disguises would melt away to his true appearance.  But they wouldn't go through four different changes unless they were involuntarily reacting to his emotions as his life flashed before his eyes.

He's not Vo.  Vo predates the 5 scholars by several hundred years, and I think Vasher would have said something.  All of the Returned can change their shape and when they don't concentrate, they default to various forms.  If you look closely, at one point in Warbreaker (I think, possibly WoR), Vasher almost loses control and gets bigger.

[Wit Beyond Measure]

10 hours ago, RShara said:

He's not Vo.  Vo predates the 5 scholars by several hundred years, and I think Vasher would have said something.  All of the Returned can change their shape and when they don't concentrate, they default to various forms.  If you look closely, at one point in Warbreaker (I think, possibly WoR), Vasher almost loses control and gets bigger.

Thanks! Yes, I caught that while reading the scene, when he was fighting the gang who'd kidnapped the priest's daughter.  That scene and some others helped me confirm that Vasher was not only returned but definitely one of the five Scholars and probably Kalad the Usurper, though possibly Peacegiver, a good bit before Vasher confirms he is all of these.  Even in this scene, though, Vasher only changes once.  I would have expected the same of Denth unless he had the royal locks.

[StrikerEZ]

2 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Thanks! Yes, I caught that while reading the scene, when he was fighting the gang who'd kidnapped the priest's daughter.  That scene and some others helped me confirm that Vasher was not only returned but definitely one of the five Scholars and probably Kalad the Usurper, though possibly Peacegiver, a good bit before Vasher confirms he is all of these.  Even in this scene, though, Vasher only changes once.  I would have expected the same of Denth unless he had the royal locks.

Well, Denth does have the Royal Locks. He's also a Returned. All Returned would have the Royal Locks. 

Also, since this more relevant to the topic itself, I knew Vasher was Zahel going into SA because someone spoiled it for me on here, so I didn't get to find out for myself (but I would've quickly realized with all the color metaphors and the voice in his head quote). As for Vivenna, I realized she was Azure when she gave her first color idiom ("like white on black") and temporarily freaked out and had to stop reading.