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[OB] Do you think Jasnah likes Kaladin?


The Night Watcher

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I really dislike any time a woman character is mean or insulting to a male character, which then is interpreted as "she's being flirtatious!" This happens in real life all the time when any time a woman engages with a man, someone can twist it to mean "she's interested!" I think when she snapped at Kaladin, that was not an indication that she was being flirtatious or bantering, but a woman being genuinely fed up with something she genuinely sees as a bad or useless idea. Her threshold for bad ideas is very low, and I don't think it's indicative that Kaladin is in any way special to her. 

Also being that Kaladin and Shallan are of a similar age, I doubt her appreciating Kaladin's sarcasm and verve is anything more than that.

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Nothing much right now, but it might grow into something more in future books. 

In particular I think Jasnah is going to struggle with inspiring and winning the loyalty of her new Alethi subjects and Kaladin may be the person who teaches her leadership (as Leadership is a divine attribute of Windrunner powers).  It would also be a nice continuation of Elkohar's arc, how he was becoming a better leader in the end and seemed to be observing/imitating Kaladin.

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Completely agree with @Greywatch.

She has a low tolerance for anything she views as stupid. Kaladin's apparent sentimentality is a direct liability in her logic driven view. The idea that she's attempting to flirt goes against everything we've seen of her character. 

Frankly, the idea that Jasnah has to have a romantic interest just because she's a woman and considered attractive is kind of repugnant, and I'm disappointed in the fact that people seem to think she has to get paired off. 

Jasnah is the type to put duty before all else. I don't see her allowing herself the time for a romantic relationship even if she did want one, and all indications so far show she doesn't. 

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14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Frankly, the idea that Jasnah has to have a romantic interest just because she's a woman and considered attractive is kind of repugnant, and I'm disappointed in the fact that people seem to think she has to get paired off. 

I got the feeling that it's more about Kaladin needing a romantic interest, not Jasnah. At least this discussion usually pops out in "Kaladin's love life" and related threads, and Jasnah isn't much shipped with anybody else. 

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Just now, Ailvara said:

I got the feeling that it's more about Kaladin needing a romantic interest, not Jasnah. At least this discussion usually pops out in "Kaladin's love life" and related threads, and Jasnah isn't much shipped with anybody else. 

Yeah... I have issues with that too. A ship for the sake of a ship is crap. 

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15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Jasnah is the type to put duty before all else. I don't see her allowing herself the time for a romantic relationship even if she did want one, and all indications so far show she doesn't. 

I could see Syl convincing Ivory that encouraging a romantic relationship is an important part of caring for your Knight Radient.

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22 hours ago, IntentAwesome said:

I'm gonna preface this with, I don't like the idea of Jasnah and Kaladin together, for many of the reasons that have already been stated: Jasnah doesn't seem interested in, or need, a romance, she's older than Kal, etc.

I do think they are a good match politically on some level. Kaladin is even more influential right now than he realizes, and he could capitalize on that influence if he wanted to. On the other hand, there's something to be said for not having all of the leadership of the Radiants also tied to Alethi politics. If Kaladin became part of the Kholin family, then fully half of the Radiant orders would be led by Kholins. Dalinar's coalition is fragile enough as is, without everybody viewing the Radiants as being almost solely represented by the Alethi elite.

Additionally, while there's something to be said for opposites attract, I'm not sure Kaladin would ever be ok with how coolly Jasnah can have someone assassinated, or do the assassinating herself (including her own family members!), as well as some of her other utilitarian views. And I'm sure Jasnah would constantly be annoyed with Kaladin's idealism. 

But, to play devil's advocate a little bit:

I don't think I've seen anyone mention this yet, and I've been waiting to bring it up. Here's the exchange between them during the council meeting:

Really? The smartest woman in the world, and the only thing she can do here is start throwing insults? I don't think there's anywhere else in any of the books where we see Jasnah resort to insulting instead of a barrage of logic (except perhaps with Amaram). Either something about Kaladin really unsettles Jasnah, or some part of her deep down doesn't agree with her own arguments.

Either way, I am looking forward to their interactions. I think how to handle the regular parshmen/singers is going to be a big conflict of the next books, and it looks like Jasnah and Kaladin are going to be on opposite sides of that argument. Maybe they can temper each other's views a little bit. Plus, so far we've seen Jasnah easily intimidate other characters with her intelligence, arguments, etc. And I see Kaladin as someone who just refuses to be intimidated by anyone. It'll be interesting to see how Jasnah handles that.

 

Right. Literally agree with everything you said. I see a lot of people on this thread may have misread my post. I never intended them to start a romance. In fact, I would REALLY not enjoy that. Jasnah, as many have mentioned, feels pretty off the market as far as romance goes, and besides that, I could never see Kaladin or Jasnah settling for the other. I only meant that I feel like they will come to respect each other in the future. I think Jasnah already values Kaladin because he's not an idiot, and he's genuine (things she's probably hard-pressed to find from people of import).

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A deviation from Jasnah and Kaladin... but why do people think Jasnah is so opposed to romance? Jasnah seems to find marriage distasteful, but marriage and romantic attachment are not synonymous; a marriage can be devoid of romantic attachment and a relationship can have romantic attachment even if outside of a marriage. Is there any evidence that Jasnah finds romance itself distasteful? I know some people think Jasnah may be asexual, and I wonder what evidence we have of this other than the fact she's above the age Alethi women are normally married off and has resisted getting married. (The institution of marriage in Alethkar and Jah Kaved seems designed to rob women of agency, so I don't blame her for feeling this way regardless of her sexual or romantic inclinations! She is explicitly all about female agency in her writings.)

I find this quote below interesting, as this is Jasnah showing an intense fondness for a male. Who could this be? I believe the only plausible man we know of would be Gavilar, but Shallan knows of Gavilar and is in fact researching him, so why wouldn't Jasnah use his name? Why would Jasnah be portrayed as reacting to Gavilar in such a manner when Shallan and her have discussed him extensively in the past? If you ascribe to the "Brandon doesn't write something unless it means something" mindset this seems to point to an unknown man in Jasnah's past. Could be romantic, could be not, but I don't know why it would be presumed not to be romantic absent evidence to the contrary, especially as "dear to me," "fond" and "precious" are pretty strong descriptors used in relation to Jasnah.  

Quote

Jasnah took the book from beneath her arm and set it on the bed beside Shallan. “This is for you.”

Shallan picked it up. She opened to the front page, but it was blank. The next one was as well, as were all inside of it. Her frown deepened, and she looked up at Jasnah.

“It’s called the Book of Endless Pages,” Jasnah said. “Er, I’m pretty sure it’s not endless, Brightness.” She flipped to the last page and held it up.

Jasnah smiled. “It’s a metaphor, Shallan. Many years ago, someone dear to me made a very good attempt at converting me to Vorinism. This was the method he used.”

Shallan cocked her head.

“You search for truth,” Jasnah said, “but you also hold to your faith. There is much to admire in that. Seek out the Devotary of Sincerity. They are one of the very smallest of the devotaries, but this book is their guide.”

“One with blank pages?”

“Indeed. They worship the Almighty, but are guided by the belief that there are always more answers to be found. The book cannot be filled, as there is always something to learn. This devotary is a place where one is never penalized for questions, even those challenging Vorinism’s own tenets.” She shook her head. “I cannot explain their ways. You should be able to find them in Vedenar, though there are none in Kharbranth.”

“I …” Shallan trailed off, noticing how Jasnah’s hand rested fondly on the book. It was precious to her. “I hadn’t thought to find ardents who were willing to question their own beliefs.”

Jasnah raised an eyebrow. “You will find wise men in any religion, Shallan, and good men in every nation. Those who truly seek wisdom are those who will acknowledge the virtue in their adversaries and who will learn from those who disabuse them of error. All others—heretic, Vorin, Ysperist, or Maakian—are equally closed-minded.” She took her hand from the book, moving as if to stand up.

(WoK, Ch. 48, Strawberry)

 

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1 hour ago, The Night Watcher said:

Right. Literally agree with everything you said. I see a lot of people on this thread may have misread my post. I never intended them to start a romance. In fact, I would REALLY not enjoy that. Jasnah, as many have mentioned, feels pretty off the market as far as romance goes, and besides that, I could never see Kaladin or Jasnah settling for the other. I only meant that I feel like they will come to respect each other in the future. I think Jasnah already values Kaladin because he's not an idiot, and he's genuine (things she's probably hard-pressed to find from people of import).

Yeah, I think they could end up working well together. In my mind, it's mostly a matter of... will there be enough page time to devote to seeing their working relationship evolve? Based on how many "small" moments the characters had to breathe in OB, I fear there might not be any opportunity for them to interact much if their (ever-growing) duties keep them in separate spheres.

As for why I, at least, am convinced Jasnah is not interested in romance itself, I think Feather's post on it had the best explanation with backups, especially the first section:

 

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32 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Yeah, I think they could end up working well together. In my mind, it's mostly a matter of... will there be enough page time to devote to seeing their working relationship evolve? Based on how many "small" moments the characters had to breathe in OB, I fear there might not be any opportunity for them to interact much if their (ever-growing) duties keep them in separate spheres.

I agree with this.  It would be wonderful to see Jasnah and Kaladin working together to restore Alethkar. Jasnah taking a very strategic role while Kaladin is more tactical.  They manage the task even though they disagree strongly on the end result.  Over that time, they develop a strong respect for each other and the final restructuring of Alethkar is a combination of both of their desires.  It is rare, at least in my experience, to see an author accomplish such a dynamic absent of any "shipping". However, if anyone could accomplish it, Sanderson could.  However, as you stated, it is a matter of page time. This may be tangent to the story he wants to tell.

I do believe that, for the moment, Jasnah is satisfied that Kaladin is not a fool (in contrast to Amaram).

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Jashnah and Kaladin, NAAAAAAA

Jashnah might be willing to marry Kal for political purposes, Kaladin won't.

Jashnah is 15 years his elder, more like his mom's age, which Kal would ignore.

Jashnah is cold blodded murderer, if Kal was there in WOK when she killed on street he would've fought her till one of them died because he is the one who protects

 

I agree that it is just a fantasy to draft Kaladin in some kind of romantic relationship just because he don't yet have one. I think someone will be there, but she is not been introduced to the world yet.

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7 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

I agree with this.  It would be wonderful to see Jasnah and Kaladin working together to restore Alethkar. Jasnah taking a very strategic role while Kaladin is more tactical.  They manage the task even though they disagree strongly on the end result.  Over that time, they develop a strong respect for each other and the final restructuring of Alethkar is a combination of both of their desires.  

YES PLEASE. That is exactly the kind of relationship I want for them: platonic, deeper than political, harbored on respect, and the understanding that differing opinions do not affect that respect.

If they become friends like that..  I'll melt into a puddle of precognitive bliss.

Edited by The Night Watcher
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@The Night Watcher

if Jasnah and Kaladin spend any time in close proximity, this will happen. They are both far too intelligent to not collaborate on All Things Roshar. 

Two of the most intelligent people we have seen on-screen and they both have incredible positions of influence and power. I need to see how this comes together.

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9 hours ago, Greywatch said:

As for why I, at least, am convinced Jasnah is not interested in romance itself, I think Feather's post on it had the best explanation with backups, especially the first section:

That post does a great job of explaining with quotes Jasnah's dislike/hatred of marriage, of which I totally agree. But after laying that out, the poster says the dislike of marriage stems from not wanting to conform to societal expectations (agreed on that), and that nonconformism stems from a disinterest in romance/sex overall. That seems like a big logical leap: Jasnah doesn't like romance and sex and that's the reason she's resistant to society's forced roles for women related to romance and sex? I could see a multitude of other reasons for Jasnah to dislike society's forced roles for women other than being asexual/aromantic, and could even see a past romance which didn't fit into society's mandate (so a situation where Jasnah was or wanted to be sexual/romantic) being the genesis of her dislike of marriage. So many fans think Jasnah is asexual/aromantic though (to the extent of being upset that people talk about her in a romantic context), that I feel I must be missing something in the books. At some point I'll motivate to start a thread on this, because it has nothing to do with Kaladin (no one seems to talk about Jasnah's sexuality except in relation to a potential relationship with Kaladin.)

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@Dreamstorm funny thing is that even though I don't believe Jasnah is interested in romance, I also sorta DO believe she is? But I can only imagine these two associations with romance:

1. It happened in the past, but she didn't like the restrictions on her freedom so she broke it off. 

2. It could happen in the future, during her time as Queen. 

I imagine Jasnah was more emotional when she was young. I think she's still emotional, but she's just learned to manage them now that she's experienced. Jasnah has always been a symbol of freedom in the books (IMO) -- I seem to remember Shallan is always placing Jasnah on a pedestal, admiring her unwillingness to conform to societal standards. 

Jasnah proclaimed herself a heretic years ago, I assume. That, the fact that she's one of the most brilliant women in the world, plus her refusal to play damsel, all set her into an isolated bubble. I imagine that gets lonely. Why wouldn't Jasnah want a similarly brilliant mind to share ideas and find comfort with? So maybe she fancied romance when she was young, she tried it. But something had to happen to make her so aversive to relationships in the future. Maybe she was traumatized (as so many people say), but I think more likely it was something simple. 

Just go over what you know about Jasnah. Scholar, icon of freedom, lonely. So she's lonely, finds a partner. But she's first and foremost a scholar, with great passion for finding answers and helping her people, and though she might long for romance, in the society she lives in she kind of can't do both.

I think she felt trapped in her relationships, between commitment to her partner and to her duty, so she broke it off. And after that, she decided that the world was more important than her own desires (which seems a very Jasnah-like thing to do), and she swore off marriage.

Now, her character during the time that the books take place, she seems a lot more...okay with not having romance, even going so far as to apologise to Shallan for arranging her marriage and showing genuine surprise at Shallan's openness to it. Maybe she became more confident in being alone? Or maybe she's convinced herself she's better off alone as the years passed (in the unhealthy way)? Whatever happened, Jasnah seems to be off the market, resigned to being alone. I think that's where a lot of her reserved nature comes from -- not having emotional connection to like-minded people (I mean, who the heck else in Roshar is a genius heretical defier of societal stereotype?). Not being able to trust people and really let go of her persona as a stone block. 

But maybe she'll find someone in the future, when she's Queen. I can see a good opportunity for character growth there. If she found a person who allowed her complete freedom and range of dictation, but supplied support and respect for her space as needed. Then again, I still think Jasnah's first allegiance would be to her kingdom, even if she loved a dude with everything she had. And at the first sign that her partner felt any opposition to that, she'd break off the relationship. 

Woah.

If I'd spoken this, I'd be out of breath. Kudos to anyone who actually read this entire thing.

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If this was a Robert Jordan or David Eddings book, the presence of that combative and sarcastic banter would guarantee future romance. But with Sanderson I think we need to see some common ground and mutual vulnerability as well before it ends up at romance. Mistborn Era 2 Spoilers: 

Spoiler

Wax and Steris come to mind. Combative relationship at first that didn't develop further until both began to respect each other and see vulnerability as well.

 

Edited by dionysus
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I think Jasnah may be starting to change in some ways.  I think back to when she was talking with Ivory and he says that Jasnah is not like most human and that she is unchanging.  She contradicts him here and says that she doesn't always stay the same like he thinks.  This could be a hint at a internal struggle Jasnah is dealing with and not allowing to show in her emotions.  Now that being said, we do not know the struggle going on in her head as anything to do with Kaladin as there is a great deal going on in the world but I'm all for them getting together.

As for Kaladin being too immature, in my opinion few things change a man like a serious relationship.  Most people grow a lot with a serious relationship and could positively change both Kaladin and Jasnah.

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2 hours ago, The Night Watcher said:

Jasnah proclaimed herself a heretic years ago, I assume.

afaik, Jasnah proclaimed she was a heretic on the night of Gavilar's assassination (prior to the assassination, obviously). I believe she mentions it in the prologue of WoR, but I'd have to check my book to be sure.

Edit: Page 17 of WoR (seems to be the literal first page)

Quote

Everyone expected Dalinar to lose himself to wine during a feast--but the king's daughter, admitting to heresy? That was unprecedented.

 

Edited by Govir
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I actually want to jump back to this post:

On 12/24/2017 at 9:53 PM, aemetha said:

From a purely academical and superficial perspective, I can't argue this logic. The single greatest predictor of a compatible match is similarity. This is only one of many aspects in which a similarity may be ascertained though. It may be as easily said that Kaladin and Jasnah are similar because they both seek the end goal of defeating the desolation. However, I don't see Jasnah as the stay at home and make baby type that the culture of Alethkar would demand if she took a husband. It might be interesting to see her reject that dynamic after making a match, but it would be as interesting to see her reject it by not making a match to begin with.

I personally see Jasnah as primarily asexual. She has not indicated any sexual preference for either gender so far in her depiction. There is nothing wrong with choosing not to engage in romantic pursuits if she is not drawn to them. There is similarly nothing wrong with her engaging in a marriage of convenience and producing an heir if she chooses it. It would only be sad for Jasnah if she chose to do it despite her own goals and desires.

I feel as if in some of the depictions Jasnah would want the opportunity to raise someone from birth. She feels a sense of failure about her inability to influence her wards, and I can't help but think she would be more invested and suited to the task if she had responsibility before the wardship.

In summary, I think it matters less who a person Jasnah is romantically linked to, and more the consequences of any such attachment. I see Jasnah as being more capable of genuine affection for her child than for her partner. And there is nothing wrong with that.

And discuss Jasnah's willingness to have children in the first place. First, I agree that Jasnah feels more asexual to me, regardless of the "Book of Endless Pages" dialogue. Second, Jasnah's realistic (and lets be honest, she can shade a little fatalistic too) tendencies would probably have Jasnah avoiding having a child on the grounds that she doesn't want to bring a child into a world in the midst of a Desolation. The fact that she is Queen right now and will likely need to provide an heir is a point that would provide conflict for Jasnah's character in this case. Additionally, with how poorly Jasnah views herself as a teacher, I think that she would probably actually be genuinely afraid of the idea of having to raise a child, and heir specifically. There are a lot of things that heirs need to know and Jasnah distances herself from potential wards purely from the fact that she's afraid of breaking them. Jasnah loves those she loves very strongly, and the idea that she might break someone she loves would devastate her. (Echoes of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant anyone?)

I could theoretically see her ending up with Kaladin, but I think who her spouse ends up being is largely a moot point, as I believe that most of the story for Jasnah and any (potentially) romantic relationship will involve the friction of child rearing in light of the Desolation. 

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5 minutes ago, Jhardin said:

Second, Jasnah's realistic (and lets be honest, she can shade a little fatalistic too) tendencies would probably have Jasnah avoiding having a child on the grounds that she doesn't want to bring a child into a world in the midst of a Desolation. The fact that she is Queen right now and will likely need to provide an heir is a point that would provide conflict for Jasnah's character in this case. Additionally, with how poorly Jasnah views herself as a teacher, I think that she would probably actually be genuinely afraid of the idea of having to raise a child, and heir specifically. There are a lot of things that heirs need to know and Jasnah distances herself from potential wards purely from the fact that she's afraid of breaking them. Jasnah loves those she loves very strongly, and the idea that she might break someone she loves would devastate her.

I think our MC Radiants (who are quite broken) would have interesting reactions to the idea of having children, both for internal and external reasons. (I can imagine this being particularly tortuous for Shallan given she killed her own mother and had a childhood filled with paternal abusive behavior. Eeesh.) For Jasnah in particular, we won’t get her book and her as a true MC until she’s at least 45-50 (depending on the length of the time skip) so we would miss out on much internal discourse that she would likely have (as you note) surrounding whether or not to even have children. (Or if we got any internal discourse it wouldn’t have much space to develop given Jasnah’s place as an occasional viewpoint character now.) I’m guessing purely from a book logistics perspective, having a child will not be in Jasnah’s future and any romance we get (if there is any) will occur in the back half of the series. It just doesn’t make sense for Jasnah to go through something which would be character upheaving (romance or motherhood) unless we were able to really get into her head about it. Or at least I hope that doesn’t make sense to Brandon, as I wouldn’t want to miss out on it!

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