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[OB] Do you think Jasnah likes Kaladin?


The Night Watcher

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Okay, I’m glad you specified not romantically, because I don’t think Jasnah likes anyone that way, but we’ll see maybe someone will come along she’ll fall in love with, but she won’t want to.  (Although if I’m honest I kinda ship Jasnah and Kaladin.)

I bet Jasnah gets annoyed at Kaladin (but who doesn’t), but sure she probably likes him.  She probably doesn’t care that Kaladin doesn’t smile and is broody.  I bet she likes it more than Adolin being happy all the time.

Also what does BROTP mean? Thanks.

Edited by Aurora the Rioter
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57 minutes ago, Aurora the Rioter said:

Also what does BROTP mean? Thanks

BROTP is bro + OTP (One True Pairing). Basically it means, like, best friends on the next level.

As for Jasnah liking Kaladin, yeah, I agree, they even had that little battle of words type thing (can't remember when? Hopefully not some kind of Mandela Effect imagination)

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42 minutes ago, MistbornEdgedancer said:

They even had that little battle of words type thing (can't remember when? Hopefully not some kind of Mandela Effect imagination)

Noo I remember something like that too, just don't know where. Wish I did so I could reread it. Makes me wonder, though, was it just some Mandela Effect imagining.

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That chapter is from Shallan’s PoV too, and she’s not our most reliable narrator so who knows. I could see the relationship going all sorts of ways - it should provide more fun interactions in the future regardless as neither of them know how to leave their opinions unsaid. 

I’m also really into an idea of Lashing around a Soulcaster, especially one like Jasnah who doesn’t need to touch to Soulcast... 

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One thing that occurred to me, is how quickly Jasnah decided to have Shallan marry into the family, once she realized that she was a Surgebinder. 

Of course, there are a lot of Surgebinders now and I certainly don't expect Jasnah to become involved with the Lopen! But Kaladin is a leader among Radiants, and the only one to be given land. He is the only one to start raising other Radiants. Besides Dalinar, Kaladin is arguably the *most* important Radiant. 

I am certain Kaladin rubs her the wrong way, but the political consequences of someone so important, powerful and charismatic as Kaladin is going to remind Jasnah of countless instances in history where this kind of thing has weakened or destroyed ruling families. She may pursue this as a political marriage for strictly political reasons. 

Of course, there are a lot of other things on their minds while they are in the middle of a Desolation. 

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54 minutes ago, Naurock said:

Reading this post made me realize I'm shipping Nale and Jasnah. JasNale.

From a purely academical and superficial perspective, I can't argue this logic. The single greatest predictor of a compatible match is similarity. This is only one of many aspects in which a similarity may be ascertained though. It may be as easily said that Kaladin and Jasnah are similar because they both seek the end goal of defeating the desolation. However, I don't see Jasnah as the stay at home and make baby type that the culture of Alethkar would demand if she took a husband. It might be interesting to see her reject that dynamic after making a match, but it would be as interesting to see her reject it by not making a match to begin with.

I personally see Jasnah as primarily asexual. She has not indicated any sexual preference for either gender so far in her depiction. There is nothing wrong with choosing not to engage in romantic pursuits if she is not drawn to them. There is similarly nothing wrong with her engaging in a marriage of convenience and producing an heir if she chooses it. It would only be sad for Jasnah if she chose to do it despite her own goals and desires.

I feel as if in some of the depictions Jasnah would want the opportunity to raise someone from birth. She feels a sense of failure about her inability to influence her wards, and I can't help but think she would be more invested and suited to the task if she had responsibility before the wardship.

In summary, I think it matters less who a person Jasnah is romantically linked to, and more the consequences of any such attachment. I see Jasnah as being more capable of genuine affection for her child than for her partner. And there is nothing wrong with that.

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2 hours ago, aemetha said:

From a purely academical and superficial perspective, I can't argue this logic. The single greatest predictor of a compatible match is similarity. This is only one of many aspects in which a similarity may be ascertained though. It may be as easily said that Kaladin and Jasnah are similar because they both seek the end goal of defeating the desolation. However, I don't see Jasnah as the stay at home and make baby type that the culture of Alethkar would demand if she took a husband. It might be interesting to see her reject that dynamic after making a match, but it would be as interesting to see her reject it by not making a match to begin with.

I personally see Jasnah as primarily asexual. She has not indicated any sexual preference for either gender so far in her depiction. There is nothing wrong with choosing not to engage in romantic pursuits if she is not drawn to them. There is similarly nothing wrong with her engaging in a marriage of convenience and producing an heir if she chooses it. It would only be sad for Jasnah if she chose to do it despite her own goals and desires.

I feel as if in some of the depictions Jasnah would want the opportunity to raise someone from birth. She feels a sense of failure about her inability to influence her wards, and I can't help but think she would be more invested and suited to the task if she had responsibility before the wardship.

In summary, I think it matters less who a person Jasnah is romantically linked to, and more the consequences of any such attachment. I see Jasnah as being more capable of genuine affection for her child than for her partner. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Wow. I was gonna make a post, but you basically read my mind and posted all my thoughts way more eloquently than I was going to. 

I would like to say, however, that I really don't like the idea of either Jasnah or Kaladin being in a romantic relationship. I don't think Jasnah would be in one because, from what we've seen of her so far, she reads as very asexual to me (though she could be in a romantic relationship, there just wouldn't be any sex). As for Kaladin, I think he still has lots of growing to do before he's ready for a romantic relationship. 

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3 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

Wow. I was gonna make a post, but you basically read my mind and posted all my thoughts way more eloquently than I was going to. 

I would like to say, however, that I really don't like the idea of either Jasnah or Kaladin being in a romantic relationship. I don't think Jasnah would be in one because, from what we've seen of her so far, she reads as very asexual to me (though she could be in a romantic relationship, there just wouldn't be any sex). As for Kaladin, I think he still has lots of growing to do before he's ready for a romantic relationship. 

I completely agree. I also don't think it would be healthy. Kaladin needs someone to balance him, not to set him off.

If Jasnah has any relationship I would probably assume it to be platonic as she is a mainly cerebral person to whom bodily needs are (excuse the pun) somewhat immaterial. We can also see this in her powers: she can travel to the cognitive realm and she can transform matter (thus becoming aware how mutable and impermanent the material world is). On a purely practical level she is now acting queen of Alethkar which if we know Jasnah at all she will take supremely seriously. I doubt that (even if she were so inclined) she would let a mere romance distract from her new duties and studies. All that aside I also don't see it happening with Kaladin at the moment as I think Jasnah views him as quite immature on some points of reason and the two of them disagree on a few very fundamental concepts. I see Kaladin moving more towards a potentially widowed Laral, a Windrunner page, or a character that has barely/not jet been introduced. In general, both Jasnah and Kaladin currently have way more urgent stuff on their plates than romance...

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I need a Book 4 to even say this.

Both of them shared the single one dialogue in the whole 1200 pages book if I'm not mistaken. Jasnah also mentioned him couple times but curiously without even knowing him. Kaladin on other hand didn't mention her at all. 

So their relation were explored the least in Oathbringer. I guess we will learn much more. I honestly wonder will Gavinor be someone Kaladin and new High Queen will break the spears around. I find it kinda symbolic that it was Kaladin people who brought Elhokar's son to Kaladin. And it was Elhokar who basically pass all he cared about to Kaladin. I would like to see Kaladin showing some father-like attachment to Elhokar's legacy and Jasnah trying to do something about it. 

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4 hours ago, Harbour said:

I need a Book 4 to even say this.

Both of them shared the single one dialogue in the whole 1200 pages book if I'm not mistaken. Jasnah also mentioned him couple times but curiously without even knowing him. Kaladin on other hand didn't mention her at all. 

So their relation were explored the least in Oathbringer. I guess we will learn much more. I honestly wonder will Gavinor be someone Kaladin and new High Queen will break the spears around. I find it kinda symbolic that it was Kaladin people who brought Elhokar's son to Kaladin. And it was Elhokar who basically pass all he cared about to Kaladin. I would like to see Kaladin showing some father-like attachment to Elhokar's legacy and Jasnah trying to do something about it. 

I actually really like this idea. Kaladin is very protective and takes duty seriously. Kaladin is the one taking Gavinor back to Urithiru, and Kaladin probably feels guilty about the death of Elhokar and I could see him getting attached.

Side note I think it would be really funny if Bridge 4 raised him XD. Skar/Drehy have been taking care of him, and it would be awesome to see Bridge 4 "adopt" Gavinor. I feel like rock would mom him, Kaladin would dad him, and everyone would take care of him and try to impress him, and The Lopen would stick him to the ceiling for lols, but everyone else would flip out.

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I am happy to see that I am not the only one who felt the ‘Asexual’ vibe from Jasnah. Seriously.

As far as Jasnah and Kaladin’s compatibility otherwise, I think they will work very well together once Kaladin grows up a bit more. Kaladin has already been shown as an exceptionally intelligent person, and Jasnah respects that above almost everyhing else. 

I also think their personalities will play well off of each other. Kaladin being Firebrand passionate and Jasnah being carefully controlled emotion. I think that dynamic will be fun to see.

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Wasn’t there a part talking about her being emotionally traumatized at a young age? Im sure this could result in her stony outward appearance. Shallan also specially noted that Jasnah grinned in response to one of Kaladins retorts. From what I remember Jasnah doesn’t grin too often when arguing, so she either respects him or likes him. Kaladin could be “the guy 

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I'm gonna preface this with, I don't like the idea of Jasnah and Kaladin together, for many of the reasons that have already been stated: Jasnah doesn't seem interested in, or need, a romance, she's older than Kal, etc.

I do think they are a good match politically on some level. Kaladin is even more influential right now than he realizes, and he could capitalize on that influence if he wanted to. On the other hand, there's something to be said for not having all of the leadership of the Radiants also tied to Alethi politics. If Kaladin became part of the Kholin family, then fully half of the Radiant orders would be led by Kholins. Dalinar's coalition is fragile enough as is, without everybody viewing the Radiants as being almost solely represented by the Alethi elite.

Additionally, while there's something to be said for opposites attract, I'm not sure Kaladin would ever be ok with how coolly Jasnah can have someone assassinated, or do the assassinating herself (including her own family members!), as well as some of her other utilitarian views. And I'm sure Jasnah would constantly be annoyed with Kaladin's idealism. 

But, to play devil's advocate a little bit:

I don't think I've seen anyone mention this yet, and I've been waiting to bring it up. Here's the exchange between them during the council meeting:

Quote

"Protecting Alethkar," Kaladin said, "doesn't have to mean completely crushing the parshmen and—"

"If you want, Captain," Jasnah snapped, "I can get you some mink kits to cuddle while the adults plan."

Really? The smartest woman in the world, and the only thing she can do here is start throwing insults? I don't think there's anywhere else in any of the books where we see Jasnah resort to insulting instead of a barrage of logic (except perhaps with Amaram). Either something about Kaladin really unsettles Jasnah, or some part of her deep down doesn't agree with her own arguments.

Either way, I am looking forward to their interactions. I think how to handle the regular parshmen/singers is going to be a big conflict of the next books, and it looks like Jasnah and Kaladin are going to be on opposite sides of that argument. Maybe they can temper each other's views a little bit. Plus, so far we've seen Jasnah easily intimidate other characters with her intelligence, arguments, etc. And I see Kaladin as someone who just refuses to be intimidated by anyone. It'll be interesting to see how Jasnah handles that.

 

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22 minutes ago, IntentAwesome said:

Really? The smartest woman in the world, and the only thing she can do here is start throwing insults? I don't think there's anywhere else in any of the books where we see Jasnah resort to insulting instead of a barrage of logic (except perhaps with Amaram). Either something about Kaladin really unsettles Jasnah, or some part of her deep down doesn't agree with her own arguments.

I think Jasnah uses insults (or at least a confrontational attitude) as an assessment technique.  In WoK, she is very confrontational with Shallan as well during their early meetings.  I think her smile at the end of the confrontation (after Kaladin suggests cuddling skyeels), indicates she is more comfortable with him and his ability to think on his feet to an extent than she is with Amaram(who was also in Dalinar's confidence).

I agree with the rest of your argument and I'm not quite sure what to call her technique (perhaps over the top Socratic method?)  Considering her willingness to protect her family, I believe she wanted to assess his behavior and ability to think and use restraint.  Her smile is not one of romantic interest.

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Alright, fully disclosed, I do ship Jasnah and Kaladin.  This isn't due to any hard evidence; they just happen to be my two favorite characters and I think their strong personalities would clash in an entertaining way.

With that out of the way, I really don't think Jasnah is asexual; I just think everyone assumes that (including the reader) because we don't understand her.

Jasnah skips a lot of character growth (from the reader's perspective) due to her unaccounted time in Shadesmar.  We know that she had survived in Shadesmar for a while on her own before Hoid meets her at the end of WoR and after that they began traveling together.  We have no idea what occurred between then and her return.  At some point, she emerges, makes her way to Urithiru, and continues on like nothing had happened.  It's not until the end of OB that we really see how far Jasnah has come in her Elsecaller abilities.  Even the most advanced Soulcasting (soulcasting the air itself) seems effortless to her.

So, as readers, there is a lot we do not really comprehend when it comes to Jasnah. 

There is a lot to her character that us, as readers, haven't gotten to see, and I think in Book 4 we'll get some more of her perspective (the same way we got more Adolin chapters in OB).  With that, I think we'll learn more about what makes her tick and the whole "Jasnah is asexual" thing will turn out to just be a brash assumption.

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Quote

“If you wish, Captain,” Jasnah snapped, “I can get you some mink kits to cuddle while the adults plan. None of us want to talk about this, but that does not make it any less inevitable.”
“I’d love that,” Kaladin responded. “In turn, I’ll get you some eels to cuddle. You’ll feel right at home.”
Jasnah, curiously, smiled. “Let me ask this, Captain. Do you think ignoring the movement of Voidbringer troops would be wise?”
“Probably not,” he admitted.
“And do you think, perhaps, that you could train your squire Windrunners to fly up high and scout for us? If spanreeds are proving unreliable these days, we’ll need another method of watching the enemy. I’d happily cuddle skyeels, as you offer, if your team would be willing to spend some time imitating them.”

Depending on your point of view, this little exchange could be seen as banter or even a bit of flirting. Jasnah Kholin is used to commanding respect and obedience from others and in 99% of her interactions with people up until now, she would have either been in complete control or would have been challenged in a hostile manner (over her heresy). She is certainly not used to someone not only being able to handle her pressure, but being able to fire right back at her and hold his or her own. Kaladin might well be the first man in her life who has challenged her in that manner, with that half friendly, half competitive banter.

We know already from Jasnah's POV chapters that she is not nearly as certain or as in control as people believe her to be, and that while she projects an air of absolute authority, deep down inside she harbors doubt and uncertainty. She is likely not used to having someone (outside of her family) who is smart enough to be on her level intellectually, yet who is not afraid to challenge her point of view. Kaladin is in the unique position of an outsider who can serve as a check to her authority. Perhaps she has realized that that can be a useful thing to have. Reading further into it, I feel like there is a very real possibility that this dynamic could lead to admiration or even romance down the line. Kaladin is a strong, charismatic leader who can banter on her level, who does not wilt under the first sign of pressure and who no one is telling her to marry. At the very least, I believe she finds this a novel experience. Also, it is clear that this is not the first exchange that they have had that has proceeded in this friendly, bantering manner, and it is unlikely to be the last.

Finally, while she might appear to be asexual, I believe that this is a projection made necessary by both events in her past (Amaram, Gavilar's death, possible childhood trauma) as well as recent events (her research into the Parshman, and the arrival of the True desolation). We know that she is extremely good at disguising her true feelings and keeping a facade, but she is far from being the emotionless machine she portrays herself as. In my opinion, she is capable of romantic love, but simply has yet to find someone even remotely on her level. 

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10 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

I think Jasnah uses insults (or at least a confrontational attitude) as an assessment technique.  In WoK, she is very confrontational with Shallan as well during their early meetings.  I think her smile at the end of the confrontation (after Kaladin suggests cuddling skyeels), indicates she is more comfortable with him and his ability to think on his feet to an extent than she is with Amaram(who was also in Dalinar's confidence).

I don’t know if it’s an assessment technique, but Jasnah seems to enjoy people who will challenge her. We see this in Shallan’s viewpoint when Jasnah is displeased when Shallan refuses to engage and then smiles when Shallan acts snarky towards her. 

Quote

She glanced at Shallan, lips turning down. “Are you certain you are well enough to be about, child? You seem uncharacteristically reserved.”

“I’m fine.”

“You’re displeased because of the secrets I kept.”

[....]

“But how did you even survive in the first place?”

“Child, I’m an Elsecaller.”

“Of course. An Elsecaller, Brightness. A thing you never explained; a word which no one but the most dedicated scholar of the esoteric would recognize! That explains it perfectly.”

Jasnah smiled for some reason. (OB, Ch. 33, A Lecture)

I suspect a lot of people will wilt before Jasnah’s assertions, so it’s rare someone will confront her, let alone with wit (which occurs in each of these situations.) As far as romantic, as I mentioned previously, I think it would be incredibly fun to read (maybe someone could fanfic it??), and the age difference doesn’t bother me one bit, but I don’t think we have much to support it. As @Harbour says, Kaladin doesn’t mention Jasnah a single time in his viewpoints. Besides this one scene of dialogue, Jasnah asks about “the Windrunner” once in Shallan’s prior chapter and I think that’s it? (Someone let me know if there’s any other interaction between the two of them or if Jasnah mentions Kaladin or thinks about him another time - I don’t recall anything off the top of my head.)

Spoiler

Honestly, I think it’s more significant that Jasnah has the same reaction to Shallan and Kaladin (smiling when wittily challenged), than that Jasnah has that reaction to Kaladin. It’s yet another parallel between Shallan and Kaladin.

 

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