[OB] Mr T

[Cosmé]

Theory: Taravangian is going to bond the Nightwatcher, becoming a Bondsmith

Both Taravangian and Dalinar want to unite Roshar in the common goal of protecting civilization against the oncoming desolation. Right now, the two are at odds because they have very different plans. But both have the goal of uniting Roshar, which will put them at odds until there is some resolution. Either one of them is defeated, or they both unify together.

The second ideal of the Bondsmiths is

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I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together.

Mr T is already following this path. He wants to become "King of everything."

The third ideal, as spoken by Dalinar, is

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I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man

Mr T has a lot to take responsibility for. For Dalinar and Taravangian to form a true alliance, Taravangian is going to have to change his methods, and probably make up for trying to undermine and assassinate Dalinar previously. 

Why would he bond the Nightwatcher? He is one of the few non-radiants we know who visited her. It's also possible that he would bond the third, unrevealed 'Godspren,' but Nightwatcher seems most likely, if this theory is correct. 

Notes:

• I think we will see three bondsmiths before the series is over. I don't think Brandon would have made a point of three bonds being possible unless we get a chance to see all three, and the unique connection between the 'Godspren' and their radiant. 
• In particular, we will probably see a Bondsmith bonding with the third, unrevealed, 'Godspren', since secrecy about its identity is a notable plot point.
• It may take a few books for Taravangian to transition from 'bad guy' to 'good guy.' I think we can expect it though. We've seen several antagonists turn good. The assassin in white, Venli, the Parshendi, even Gaz. 
• It would be very interesting to see Mr T reconcile his current "Ends justify the means" philosophy with Life before Death and, in particular, Journey before Destination. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Cosmé

[Calderis]

Yeah, my running theory for nearly a year before OB, was very similar. Just he would have still been a rival, and still a villain. Because Radiant =/= good. 

Not sure how it can happen now. The whole "belive I'm working for Odium" kinda kills the Bondsmith bit in my opinion.

Edit: and the third ideal bit kills it too. Taravangian isn't going to change his methods. He believes that the humans cannot beat Odium. The Diagram is right and he must make any sacrifice necessary in order to insure humanity survives. 

In his viewpoint, everything is going as it should. There's no reason to change. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Calderis

[Cosmé]

27 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yeah, this had been my running theory for nearly a year before OB.

Not sure how it can happen now. The whole "belive I'm working for Odium" kinda kills the Bondsmith bit in my opinion. 

True. I need to re-listen to Part 5 again, since I listened to the Oathbringer audiobook. I don't remember a few of the specifics on the Odium-MrT meeting, but I remember that T was in a very weak position, having lost his Diagram, which is something he would like to get out of if he gets the chance. His original goals aligned with "for the greater good of Roshar," which should align his interests more with Dalinar than with Odium, long-term.

Keep in mind that everyone seems to have done the bidding of Odium at some point. Dalinar of course. But anyone who causes war or harbors deep hate in serving the God of Hate in the end. Kaladin's hatred of lighteyes. 

Mistborn spoiler (era one trilogy):

Spoiler

Vin, Kelsier, the crew, the skaa rebelion. Most characters inadvertently serve Ruin's will. Not Roshar, but it does show how evil shards in the Cosmere get their way

Edit: Venli served Odium until very shortly before becoming Radiant. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Cosmé

[Calderis]

@Cosmé here's my thoughts (from another thread) on what's up with Taravangian now.

Quote

Taravangian has capitulated. Apparently, that was his goal from the start. Create a position of power and negotiate a deal with Odium. 

Obviously this didn't go as planned. 

OR DID IT!?! 

The Diagram has, inadvertently, aided Dalinar every step of the way. The chaos created by Taravangian's use of Szeth directly set up the grounds for Dalinar to create his coalition. 

The release of information to undermine him led to the events in Thaylen Field. 

Since the beginning, I have believed that the Diagram is the work of Cultivation. It's methods reek of her intent. After seeing what she did with Dalinar's boon, I'm sure that Taravangian is being manipulated in a similar manner, for a different reason. 

Dalinar was manipulated to be able to resist Odium and possibly reform the Shard of Honor. Taravangian... Is being set up to undermine Odium from the inside. 

In Taravangian's meeting with Odium, the Diagram is laid large, and yet Odium is blind to certain aspects of it. There is nothing that can convince me a Shard can be blinded to the written word without either another shards involvement, or circumstances such as seen with metal in Mistborn, which to our knowledge do not exist on Roshar. 

So as I see it, Cultivation now has a pawn placed inside Odium's circle. Odium believes that Taravangian will be working for him, and he has no reason to doubt this as Taravangian believes it himself. I will be completely unsurprised though, if in short order, the Diagram gets an update. 

It's new direction will seem to work towards helping Odium achieve his goals. It will, unfortunately, slightly diverge from its apparent goals, and as with the previous outcomes, work in The Radiants favor. 

Cultivation is subtle. She is the web weaver, all about the long con. Taravangian is her trump card, and his role as Odium's human servant has given him the "capacity" to save the world. Exactly like he asked for. 

 

[Jonathon]

57 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

Edit: and the third ideal bit kills it too. Taravangian isn't going to change his methods. He believes that the humans cannot beat Odium. The Diagram is right and he must make any sacrifice necessary in order to insure humanity survives. 

In his viewpoint, everything is going as it should. There's no reason to change. 

This may be true about the third ideal but only as Dalinar spoke it. We already know that the oaths leave room for interpretation, however since there are only three bondsmiths and their order seems to be so unique what if each Godspren has slightly different oaths the proto-radiant must swear to bond it?

[Cosmé]

32 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Cosmé here's my thoughts (from another thread) on what's up with Taravangian now

Good points!

The theory that T is an important part of Cultivation’s plan would provide a good basis for a bond between him and the Nightwatcher, should he become a Radiant. I agree that the Diagram is probably of Cultivation. We know from Roshar lore that viewing the future is “of Odium,” and we know from Mistborn that all shards are very good at viewing the future. T’s “super power” could actually be as linked to viewing the future as it is to intelligence. The purpose of intelligence itself is arguably to allow a creature to predict and avoid undesirable outcomes.

T does have major obstiacles to becoming Radiant though, as you point out. The first is that he’s currently serving Odium. Venli served Odium too though, until right before speaking the oaths. His “ends justify the means” attitude is strongly anti-Radiant, because of its contradiction with Journey before Destination, but this could be the center of his personal struggle in transitioning to a poorly motivated pragmatist to, potentially, a Radiant.

T has two possible paths ahead of him. One is to become good, which could make him a Radiant, and one is to become evil, which would probably culminate in his demise eventually, because Dalinar has to unite Ja Kaved and Karbranth. We’ll see which path he ends up taking I guess. If he did take the straight and narrow, he could be in a good position to help lead the coalition as an equal.

Edit: @Jonathon That is a possibility. Also note that T would need to redeem himself to become Radiant, which makes Dalinar’s ideal perfect for him.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Cosmé

[thegatorgirl00]

I'm not sure how trustworthy Odium is, but he outright states Cultivation isn't on our heroes side as much as we might think. 

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Ask that of Cultivation, next time you see her. Ask what she’d want for Roshar. I think you’ll find me to be the better choice.

When I read this, I thought it was referring to Mr. T, and I still think that's true. I think Mr. T is less a double agent as @Calderis said and more of a backup plan. If the Radiants fail, there's still a seed for future opposition to grow from. 

Cultivation has her own agenda. She helped Dalinar, but she also flat out tells him she nurtures everything, even the thorns. I can't imagine she would disapprove of freeing the parshmen and allowing them to grow. She's playing the long game. She's definitely planning contingencies in case our Radiants fail. 

[Blazenella]

One thing that I think everyone overlooking with MrT is that The Diagram predicted Dalinar's downfall. As did Odium. As did Renarin. 

MrT has just realized "Oh rust The Diagram can be wrong, maybe I shouldn't side with Odium".

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Blazenella said:

One thing that I think everyone overlooking with MrT is that The Diagram predicted Dalinar's downfall. As did Odium. As did Renarin. 

MrT has just realized "Oh rust The Diagram can be wrong, maybe I shouldn't side with Odium".

Yeah, I'm not overlooking that. At all. 

Taravangian hasn't accepted it can be wrong. He's always taken it to be either a misinterpretation on their part in either the actions taken, or the outcome, or he's blamed the divergence created by time. Which is why he badly wants the Diagram to be updated. 

Look at what happened in the meeting with Odium. The Diagram is guiding events, even as it has seemed to divulge more and more greatly. It knew that the meeting would happen with Odium the way that it did. Which is why I credit Cultivation. The Diagram has never been what it appears to be, and because of that it's working perfectly. 

Taravangian is placed precisely where Cultivation wants him to be. Failings of the Diagram to this point are failings of what Taravangian believed the Diagram was supposed to do. 

The Diagram wasn't wrong though, Taravangian was. He's three times the sucker. Suckered by Odium, suckered by his genius self and suckered by Cultivation. 

When it all ends, it's not going to end well for Taravangian, but he'll have made a difference. 

[Blazenella]

Just now, Calderis said:

Yeah, I'm not overlooking that. At all. 

Taravangian hasn't accepted it can be wrong. He's always taken it to be either a misinterpretation on their part in either the actions taken, or the outcome, or he's blamed the divergence created by time. Which is why he badly wants the Diagram to be updated. 

Look at what happened in the meeting with Odium. The Diagram is guiding events, even as it has seemed to divulge more and more greatly. It knew that the meeting would happen with Odium the way that it did. Which is why I credit Cultivation. The Diagram has never been what it appears to be, and because of that it's working perfectly. 

Taravangian is placed precisely where Cultivation wants him to be. Failings of the Diagram to this point are failings of what Taravangian believed the Diagram was supposed to do. 

The Diagram wasn't wrong though, Taravangian was. He's three times the sucker. Suckered by Odium, suckered by his genius self and suckered by Cultivation. 

When it all ends, it's not going to end well for Taravangian, but he'll have made a difference. 

Yeah I agree with Cultivation being a sneaky little bugger.

I  can just imagine Rayse just sitting with his head in his hands...

"Cultivation y tho??? He's suppooooooosed to be MY puppet"

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

I think the thing to think about in all of this is that Taravangian asked for the capacity to save humanity and the compassion to do what is right. These are sometimes at cross purposes as his two states of existence echo these requests. The thing that Odium may be blind to is irrational love i.e. compassion, and this is precisely the portion of T's plans that slip in under Odium's radar. I think the reason that Renarin is outside of Odium's purview is that he was likewise spared through an act of compassion. That's why I think Taravangian is the subtle Odium destroying knife purposely forged by Cultivation, his intelligence and foresight allow the diagram to be adjusted and his compassion is a veil that Odium cannot pierce.

Edited December 24, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
clarification, and expansion on Central point.

[Cosmé]

55 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I'm not sure how trustworthy Odium is, but he outright states Cultivation isn't on our heroes side as much as we might think. 

When I read this, I thought it was referring to Mr. T, and I still think that's true. I think Mr. T is less a double agent as @Calderis said and more of a backup plan. If the Radiants fail, there's still a seed for future opposition to grow from. 

Cultivation has her own agenda. She helped Dalinar, but she also flat out tells him she nurtures everything, even the thorns. I can't imagine she would disapprove of freeing the parshmen and allowing them to grow. She's playing the long game. She's definitely planning contingencies in case our Radiants fail. 

Good point. Shards represent their intent, rather than good or evil. Even Honor is not strictly "good," which may have caused tension between the dying Honor and the soon to dissolve Knights Radiant, before the Recreance.

Is Surgebinding strictly of Honor? Are the Knights Radiant strictly of Honor? Surgebinding destroyed the old human world before humans even met Honor, presumedly. So, do Radiants have to be aligned to Honor? Could Mr T bind the Nightwatcher, while serving Cultivation, and still be a Knight Radiant? Renarin is bound to a lower-level Odium spren. The Fused seem to use Surgebinding, without any connection to Honor or Cultivation, rather Odium. Perhaps the third bindable Bondsmith spren is an Odium Godspren.

The 1-3 Bondsmiths could each represent very different ideas, and the intent of different Shards.

47 minutes ago, Blazenella said:

One thing that I think everyone overlooking with MrT is that The Diagram predicted Dalinar's downfall. As did Odium. As did Renarin. 

MrT has just realized "Oh rust The Diagram can be wrong, maybe I shouldn't side with Odium".

Yep. Dalinar's success must have been very improbable. Perhaps the Radiants would have fallen if Dalinar wasn't able to "Ascend," which is a factor that no one, including Odium, was able to Forsee. We know from Mistborn that shards cannot see into the future, but they do have a Godlike ability to see an endless tree of possibilities. They can pass that on to magic users via surgebindings on Roshar or (Mistborn era 1)

Spoiler

Atium on Scarial. Users see possibilities, not what will happen

 

[Dlyol]

19 hours ago, Cosmé said:

We know from Mistborn that shards cannot see into the future, but they do have a Godlike ability to see an endless tree of possibilities.

This isn't strictly true. Preservation and Honour aren't very good at seeing into the future because it doesn't accord with their intent but Honour explicitly says that Cultivation can because it does accord with her intent. Shards have essentially infinite power but they are limited by mind of their vessel and by their intent. So those Shards with which future sight  accords with their intent can and do see into the future and any inaccuracies in doing so are caused by limitations inherent to the nature of their power

[The One Who Connects]

58 minutes ago, Dlyol said:

Preservation and Honour aren't very good at seeing into the future

Ruin and Honor. Preservation is wonderfully skilled in future-sight.

Quote

Jeremy (paraphrased)

When Honor speaks of his inability to see the future, he likens it to a shattering window. Is this related to the fact that in the not-too-distant future, he himself will be splintered? Or is it more a matter of Intent; e.g., Cultivation (and Preservation?) is geared toward future development, whereas Honor is geared toward current behavior.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is not related to his impending Splintering, it is a matter of differing Intents.

Thanks to this WoB, I think future-sight works like this: The future is like a shattering window, big pieces fragmenting into smaller pieces the further you go. It's like this because of the sheer number of possibilities and variables. Imagine that each potential future is a piece of that broken glass. The better you are at future-sight, the further you can see before it devolves into endless tiny pieces of shattered futures.

So Honor sees a million tiny fragments peering 5 years ahead, while Cultivation is still only seeing large chunks 250 years in. She's still gonna hit the million fragments point eventually, but Preservation was skilled enough to plan at least 2-4 millennia ahead.

There will still be the odd small fragment early on because that's how glass breaks, but there will be less of them. And it's likely that one of these small futures got overlooked, which is why even the Shards can be surprised.

20 hours ago, Cosmé said:

Is Surgebinding strictly of Honor? Are the Knights Radiant strictly of Honor?

Nope. Nahel Spren are a mixture of Honor and Cultivation.

---

22 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I'm not sure how trustworthy Odium is, but he outright states Cultivation isn't on our heroes side as much as we might think.

Assuming that Cultivation is in fact responsible for the Diagram, we don't even need Odium's word on this.

Quote

Writings upon the Bedstand Lamp

“    Chaos in Alethkar is, of course, inevitable. Watch carefully, and do not let power in the kingdom solidify. The Blackthorn could become an ally or our greatest foe, depending on whether he takes the path of the warlord or not. If he seems likely to sue for peace, assassinate him expeditiously. The risk of competition is too great.”

—Paragraph 4

You can either hand me a word that one could feasibly mistranslate into "assassinate" and still be a valid sentence, or you can accept that Cultivation was willing to kill off Dalinar as part of her plan. Oh and then there's this gem, which speaks for itself:

Quote

Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation

“   1118251011127124915121010111410215117112101112171344831110715142541434109161491493412122541010125127101519101112341255115251215755111234101112915121061534”

—Pattern 15

This is a code that translates to "Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return."

[Dlyol]

21 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Ruin and Honor. Preservation is wonderfully skilled in future-sight.

Yeah sorry, I was quite drunk when I posted that

[Cosmé]

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

You can either hand me a word that one could feasibly mistranslate into "assassinate" and still be a valid sentence, or you can accept that Cultivation was willing to kill off Dalinar as part of her plan. Oh and then there's this gem, which speaks for itself:

Well, Cultivation said in her conversation with Dalinar that she was unsure that he would be able to resist Odium’s pull, and she was nearly right. He almost became Odium’s champion. It makes sense from Cultivation’s standpoint. She doesn’t want to be defeated and splintered, and she probably distrusts the Radiants, who are using powers from another world that could be of Odium (surgebinding).

Mr T is a pragmatist. The ends justify the means, and he’s willing to accept terrible ends. We’ll see whether he keeps to that mindset or is able to accept a less evil one.

Szeth also tried to kill Dalinar, albeit for honorable reasons, and on T’s orders of course.

[digitalbusker]

The Diagram endorses assassinating Dalinar. Cultivation is (probably) behind the Diagram. Those two things together don't necessarily imply that Cultivation endorses assassinating Dalinar. The Diagram could easily be a bluff or feint, designed to not achieve its stated ends.

Although the general aim of the Diagram is pretty Cultivation-y. When the wildfire comes for your garden, you worry about saving enough to rebuild, not saving everything.

Edited December 24, 2017 by digitalbusker

[Darvys]

I would be very surprised and disappointed if Odium is as blind to Cultivation's intentions as some are implying here, it wasn't that hard for us to link the dots, and this theory isn't based on anything Odium is unaware of, that's why i like the idea of Renarin as the ultimate wild card so much, i would find it far more satisfying if both Shards tried to outsmart each other only to end up blindsided by the little human everyone overlooked (don't know how long that will last now that part of the secret is out though ...).