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[OB] Some things unanswered


Alzabar

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As the title suggests,

What was the little comet spren that was following Venli, and for how long? I believed for the rest of the book that it was the same spren than flew away from Eshonai’s corpse as it’s described the same, and Venli hadn’t flown yet until after her envoyform transformation, so it would be easy for the spren to follow her. The spren is able to hum the rhythms of the parshendi, so is it a listener only spren, Eshonai’s spirit such as a Fused spirit, or is it communicating to her in a base form?

 

The black spirit that was with Odium when he was confronting Dalinar. I thought, as the narrative went, that this spirit would inhabit Dalinar after he was broken and then he would become Odiums champion through possession. However none of this happened and the blackness was kind of just forgotten about? Did I miss something? Was the spirit just what Venli could see in the Spiritual Realm while in the Psychical it was in a sphere somewhere in Odiums pocket?

 

Jasnah and Kaladin. It’s happening. I hope. There’s some hints such as when Jasnah asks Shallan what she thinks of the bridgeboy, then rants on some other stuff, or when she and Kaladin have a little verbal battle. As a reader we know that it’s these sparring sessions between Shallan and Kaladin that let them grow closer together, while Jasnah chides Shallan every time she does it, saying it’s like a bludgeon, but she lets herself get drawn into it anyway. I think it also fits the whole situation that Adolin + Shallan = Love, and Kaladin was just a fleeting “bad boy” crush. Kaladin seems to have moved on anyway, but I’m sure Syl will still pressure him into something with someone else anyway.

 

The whole humans are the aliens story. Syl confirms humans brought Odium with them, so why does he switch sides and become a listener god? Why do humans switch sides and turn to Honor? It’s hard to ascertain if the humans were in good standing with Odium and they came to Roshar just to invade after ruining their planet, or they were escaping him and he followed anyway. I find a likely reason for the switch is that Odium just craves conflict. I can see a future where Odium switches again if the listeners reclaim their world back, just to continue the wars and the bloodshed. 

 

What is the deal with Lift exactly. We know she is going to be a kid forever, and she metabolizes food into “awesomeness”, but how does she slip in and out of Dalinars visions? The Stormfather feels her and what the Nightwatcher did, claiming her an insult to him, but why does Odium stiffen up at the end of his first invasion of Dalinars vision? Odium obviously sensed her but couldn’t pinpoint her behind the rock, but there was some anxiety and tension from him. 

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4 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

What was the little comet spren that was following Venli, and for how long?

Timbre is the same spren that followed Eshonai. She's a Willshaper spren. 

5 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

The black spirit that was with Odium when he was confronting Dalinar.

This was Yelig-nar, which went into Amaram once he swallowed the gemstone. 

6 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

Jasnah and Kaladin. It’s happening.

Ugh. No

7 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

The whole humans are the aliens story.

Humans lived on Ashyn. Odium shows up and incites an apocalypse. Humans flee to Roshar and are given refuge. The Singers assume this new force arriving with the humans is their God, but it's not necessarily true. Likewise, the Singers were never beholden to Honor. Animosity insures and fighting starts, the Singers embrace Odium, and the Heralds approach honor and the Oathpact is formed.

10 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

What is the deal with Lift exactly. We know she is going to be a kid forever, and she metabolizes food into “awesomeness”, but how does she slip in and out of Dalinars visions?

We don't know exactly. She's not going to be a kid forever as we have proof from Edgedancer she is physically aging. The only things we know is she can interact with things in the Cognitive Realm that she shouldn't be able to, and that she can only gain Stormlight via food. 

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5 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

The spren is able to hum the rhythms of the parshendi, so is it a listener only spren, Eshonai’s spirit such as a Fused spirit, or is it communicating to her in a base form?

I'm pretty sure we know it's not Eshonai, but that's about all I remember.

6 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

Syl confirms humans brought Odium with them, so why does he switch sides and become a listener god? Why do humans switch sides and turn to Honor?

Under the current interpretation of events, Odium didn't really switch sides. The Listeners abandoned H&C after an event of some sort, and turned to Odium, who in turn offered them power(the Fused). It's like a teacher having a new set of students next school year. Did he switch which class he was teaching, or did the students switch teachers?

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6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This was Yelig-nar, which went into Amaram once he swallowed the gemstone. 

Ugh. No

I’m not very knowledgeable on splitting quotes, especially on an iPhone, apologies. 

So Queen Aesudan swallows the gem in Kholinar, but Kaladin and gang escape. Next the gem is with Odium, and he says something about the gem consuming if not controlled, and we can assume Aesudan was consumed, sure. So being consumed literally means your whole body? Otherwise why is the unmade still in the gem, why has nobody released him yet? Why was he not released when there were two other unmade in Kholinar?

 

 

 

J + K is preferable to me because of above reasons, but mostly because the A/S/K love triangle is getting so played out. I really started to hate Shallan as a character with her split personalities and refusal to deal with her problems, basically ignoring Pattern, and I don’t want to read about her involving Kaladin in her problems just so she can cope. Is Jasnah really such a lofty character that she’s beyond romance? Can Brandon really not give her a partner because he wrote how she hadn’t met a worthy suitor yet, or that she’s too much of a scholar?

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5 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

So Queen Aesudan swallows the gem in Kholinar, but Kaladin and gang escape. Next the gem is with Odium, and he says something about the gem consuming if not controlled, and we can assume Aesudan was consumed, sure. So being consumed literally means your whole body? Otherwise why is the unmade still in the gem, why has nobody released him yet? Why was he not released when there were two other unmade in Kholinar?

Yelig-nar was not kept inside the gemstone, he just needs the stone to be inside of someone in order to manifest himself in the Physical Realm.  

 

There are multiple threads speculating about the fate of Queen Aesudan.  I believe she's gone completely.  

 

Edited by Scion of the Mists
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17 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

J + K is preferable to me because of above reasons, but mostly because the A/S/K love triangle is getting so played out. I really started to hate Shallan as a character with her split personalities and refusal to deal with her problems, basically ignoring Pattern, and I don’t want to read about her involving Kaladin in her problems just so she can cope.

So you want Shallan to magically heal her mind by getting with Adolin and ignoring her other feelings? Doesn't seem  like a good cure, tbh.

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22 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

So Queen Aesudan swallows the gem in Kholinar, but Kaladin and gang escape. Next the gem is with Odium, and he says something about the gem consuming if not controlled, and we can assume Aesudan was consumed, sure. So being consumed literally means your whole body? Otherwise why is the unmade still in the gem, why has nobody released him yet? Why was he not released when there were two other unmade in Kholinar?

You know how the Spren for Singer Forms are bonded in the Gemheart, and how Spren need to be in the gemstone for Fabrials to function? The fancy gem Yelig-Nar uses serves the same purpose, since Humans don't have Gemhearts(although it appears a Singer would have to swallow a gem too, for some reason). He's not trapped at all, he uses the gem as a focal point to "bond" with his hosts.

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4 minutes ago, Humming said:

So you want Shallan to magically heal her mind by getting with Adolin and ignoring her other feelings? Doesn't seem  like a good cure, tbh.

What other feelings? The Veil part? We know Radiant likes Adolin, so that’s 2/3s that like Adolin. We also know Shallan has no idea what she’s doing when it comes to living her alterselves because she broke down already when she got numerous people killed as Veil. Why would Veil, or that personality of Shallan, know what love is? Lopen already said you can’t fix the rockbud up top, so I’m not waiting for her issues to spontaneously go away, but she can at least go the route with Adolin. 

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Oh boy storms, another shipping thread has emerged.

31 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

I really started to hate Shallan as a character with her split personalities and refusal to deal with her problems, basically ignoring Pattern, and I don’t want to read about her involving Kaladin in her problems just so she can cope.

2 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

What other feelings? The Veil part? We know Radiant likes Adolin, so that’s 2/3s that like Adolin.

For all we know, Veil is the realest part of Shallan. Think of this: which persona was created first? It was Veil. She made Veil when she was crossing the continent heading towards the Shattered Plains. She makes her 'Shallan' persona when she's first introduced at court. Radiant comes out when she tries to practice with a Shardblade and can't stand to hold it. Regardless of which portion of her is dominant, all three fragments are still her, and she's still going to have to reconcile all of them (all of her) in order to progress as a Radiant or even to keep Pattern alive. You mentioned her ignoring Pattern, and how it bothered you, but I don't think you've made the connection that the reason she's doing so is because she's divided against herself. 'Shallan,' the one who gets married, HATES Pattern, because she attributes her mother's death to him. That's why she needs Radiant in the first place. I'm not so sure Radiant would choose Adolin over Kaladin, since she's the one who seemed to enjoy the power-couple Radiant dynamic. At best she's got 1/3 Adolin, 1/3 Kaladin, and 1/3 practical, technical, asexual (like Jasnah). She needs to stop coping and start actually healing, and there's no way that's going to happen until her personalities are unified, which means addressing her attraction for Kaladin instead of shunting off to a persona.

As for the Kaladin/Jasnah (I like the moniker Kalasnah, but you're more likely to see Jasnadin) pairing, there's a reason I mentioned Radiant and Jasnah in the same sentence. Radiant is the part of Shallan that wants to be like Jasnah, including being slightly bustier and also, apparently, less interested in sex and romance. Jasnah has seemed to repress her sexual feelings, instead choosing to wield her beauty as a weapon. She also seems utterly appalled by the thought of subsuming herself to a man through marriage or partnership. If I had to guess why I'd say trauma, like the rest of the Radiants. We got a few clues in OB about Jasnah, specifically some kind of illness as a youth. I'm guessing she's not just asexual by choice, but rather as a result of some trauma from her past that will be revealed in her background book (book 10, tentatively). 

For these reasons I don't see her forming a relationship with Kaladin, and frankly I don't think he'd be very interested in her. He had a hard time overcoming his distaste for Shallan as a lighteyes, and that was only after Shallan let her guard down and revealed to Kaladin just how much they have in common (trauma, broken people). Until Jasnah does the same (there's a scene I'd like to see), Kaladin is more likely to remain aloof from the new Queen. The absolute best I could see for them is some kind of casual sex relationship where they don't have to do anything socially together, or answer to the expectations of others, which I would be surprised to see be explored. Even if it did happen, Brandon seems more likely to keep it off screen. This is one of the more popular ships, but I don't see any hints or evidence that it's coming.

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14 minutes ago, Rainier said:

She also seems utterly appalled by the thought of subsuming herself to a man through marriage or partnership. If I had to guess why I'd say trauma, like the rest of the Radiants. We got a few clues in OB about Jasnah, specifically some kind of illness as a youth. I'm guessing she's not just asexual by choice, but rather as a result of some trauma from her past that will be revealed in her background book (book 10, tentatively). 

I don’t remember any quotes of Jasnah being appalled by relationships, just Shallan seeing Jasnah as someone above that, so if you can provide a quote I would appreciate it.  

My theory of Jasnah’s illness was that of a mental one, as in her bonding a spren early in her childhood and being able to see into a different realm she didn’t quite understand, attributing to her mastery of her powers as we see at the end of OB. 

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22 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Oh boy storms, another shipping thread has emerged.

For all we know, Veil is the realest part of Shallan. Think of this: which persona was created first? It was Veil. She made Veil when she was crossing the continent heading towards the Shattered Plains. She makes her 'Shallan' persona when she's first introduced at court. Radiant comes out when she tries to practice with a Shardblade and can't stand to hold it. Regardless of which portion of her is dominant, all three fragments are still her, and she's still going to have to reconcile all of them (all of her) in order to progress as a Radiant or even to keep Pattern alive. You mentioned her ignoring Pattern, and how it bothered you, but I don't think you've made the connection that the reason she's doing so is because she's divided against herself. 'Shallan,' the one who gets married, HATES Pattern, because she attributes her mother's death to him. That's why she needs Radiant in the first place. I'm not so sure Radiant would choose Adolin over Kaladin, since she's the one who seemed to enjoy the power-couple Radiant dynamic. At best she's got 1/3 Adolin, 1/3 Kaladin, and 1/3 practical, technical, asexual (like Jasnah). She needs to stop coping and start actually healing, and there's no way that's going to happen until her personalities are unified, which means addressing her attraction for Kaladin instead of shunting off to a persona.

As for the Kaladin/Jasnah (I like the moniker Kalasnah, but you're more likely to see Jasnadin) pairing, there's a reason I mentioned Radiant and Jasnah in the same sentence. Radiant is the part of Shallan that wants to be like Jasnah, including being slightly bustier and also, apparently, less interested in sex and romance. Jasnah has seemed to repress her sexual feelings, instead choosing to wield her beauty as a weapon. She also seems utterly appalled by the thought of subsuming herself to a man through marriage or partnership. If I had to guess why I'd say trauma, like the rest of the Radiants. We got a few clues in OB about Jasnah, specifically some kind of illness as a youth. I'm guessing she's not just asexual by choice, but rather as a result of some trauma from her past that will be revealed in her background book (book 10, tentatively). 

For these reasons I don't see her forming a relationship with Kaladin, and frankly I don't think he'd be very interested in her. He had a hard time overcoming his distaste for Shallan as a lighteyes, and that was only after Shallan let her guard down and revealed to Kaladin just how much they have in common (trauma, broken people). Until Jasnah does the same (there's a scene I'd like to see), Kaladin is more likely to remain aloof from the new Queen. The absolute best I could see for them is some kind of casual sex relationship where they don't have to do anything socially together, or answer to the expectations of others, which I would be surprised to see be explored. Even if it did happen, Brandon seems more likely to keep it off screen. This is one of the more popular ships, but I don't see any hints or evidence that it's coming.

Maybe not Jasnah, but Shallan and Kaladin are pretty much over. Veil and Radiant are both personas and Shallan chooses Adolin. Unless they kill off Adolin in next book, continuation of this triangle will be tedious and frankly boring. I take the ending as Shallan getting comfortable as herself and getting assertive over her personas.

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On 12/23/2017 at 1:52 AM, Alzabar said:

Jasnah and Kaladin. It’s happening. I hope. There’s some hints such as when Jasnah asks Shallan what she thinks of the bridgeboy, then rants on some other stuff, or when she and Kaladin have a little verbal battle. As a reader we know that it’s these sparring sessions between Shallan and Kaladin that let them grow closer together, while Jasnah chides Shallan every time she does it, saying it’s like a bludgeon, but she lets herself get drawn into it anyway. I think it also fits the whole situation that Adolin + Shallan = Love, and Kaladin was just a fleeting “bad boy” crush. Kaladin seems to have moved on anyway, but I’m sure Syl will still pressure him into something with someone else anyway.

Seriously, it is the only thing which i don't wish to see in cosmere. Kaladin suffered hell twice already, why do you want him to suffer for eternity again? And then Jasnah is almost 15 years elder then Kal, almost of his mother's age. Jasnah is shown killing people in cold blood, Kal froze when he saw his friends in front of him in battle. Nope, that is something which should never happen

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On 12/22/2017 at 2:32 PM, RShara said:

Please let's not turn this into another shipping thread.  There are already plenty of those.  Take the shipping there.

Much as I agree with the sentiment, Alzabar created this as a shipping thread by shipping in the OP and seems interested in discussing shipping, so there's that.   Should there be rules about where to do shipping?  

There is a line that caught my eye:

Quote

Is Jasnah such a lofty character that she's beyond romance?

I don't really accept the assumptions underlying the question.   I don't really understand Jasnah or why we haven't seen any romantic engagement.  I love her for kicking butt and naming names and I look forward eagerly to understanding her better.  I don't know that loftiness is the reason for her lack of romance.  

Someone suggested trauma, which seems possible, but I'll be happy if she turns out to be asexual.  

Edited by hoser
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On 22/12/2017 at 10:09 PM, Alzabar said:

I don’t remember any quotes of Jasnah being appalled by relationships, just Shallan seeing Jasnah as someone above that, so if you can provide a quote I would appreciate it.  

My theory of Jasnah’s illness was that of a mental one, as in her bonding a spren early in her childhood and being able to see into a different realm she didn’t quite understand, attributing to her mastery of her powers as we see at the end of OB. 

I think this is the part they are referring to 

Jasnah took a deep breath. She seemed reluctant to explain. “I have taken the initial steps in arranging for you to be betrothed to one of my cousins, son of my uncle Dalinar Kholin. The boy’s name is Adolin. He is handsome and well-acquainted with amiable discourse.”

“Betrothed?” Shallan said. “You’ve promised him my hand?”

"I have started the process,” Jasnah said, speaking with uncharacteristic anxiety. “Though at times he lacks foresight, Adolin has a good heart— as good as that of his father, who may be the best man I have ever known. He is considered Alethkar’s most eligible son, and my mother has long wanted him wed.”

“Betrothed,” Shallan repeated. “Yes. Is that distressing?”

And 

“It doesn’t bother you at all?” Jasnah said. “The idea of being beholden to another, particularly a man?”“

"It’s not like I’m being sold into slavery,” Shallan said with a laugh. “No. I suppose not.” Jasnah shook herself, her poise returning.

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