[OB] Why Shalash Must Die

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

Ok so I have a theory that Shalash can not live through the Stormlight Archive. The reason for this is that we have a WOB that each book is dedicated to a DIFFERENT order of Radiants. The current flashbacks are set as:

Kaladin: Windrunner

Shallan: Lightweaver 

Dalinar: Bondsmith

Eshonai: Willshaper

Szeth: Skybreaker 

Lift: Edgedancer

Jasnah: Elsecaller 

Taln: Stoneward 

Renarin: Truthwatcher 

Shalash: Lightweaver

 See the problem there are two Lightweaver books, and no Dustbringer books. When we know that Sanderson said that we are going to have ONE book for each order. So in my opinion Ash dies, Malata takes the Lead for that book, but we still get Shalash’s backstory.

[Blackwarder]

I think ash will bond a dustbringer spren. 

 

Warder

[Scion of the Mists]

A common theory is that Shalash somehow becomes a Dustbringer.  Remember that the Heralds without their honorblades are no longer surgebinders.  

[Awesomness]

20 minutes ago, Blackwarder said:

I think ash will bond a dustbringer spren. 

 

Warder

Why does so many people say this? I feel I lost something, or perhaps  didn't read that specific thread...

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

The problem with ash being a Dustbringer is that her attributes are creativity and honesty.

And Dustbringers like breaking things not making art.

 

[Crylorenzo]

When Dalinar combined all three realms and all the surgebinders walked up, there was a sense that all 10 orders were present (Venli being the Willshaper). All are obvious to us as readers except Venli and Shalash and Taln, though we assume he'll resume being a Stoneward. As I said, we assume Venli to be the Willshaper (one argument for why is because her spren's grandfather is a deadeye and a willshaper spren in shadesmar mentioned his fathre being a deadeye, if I remember correctly). That leaves Shalash to be the Dustbringer, or eventual Dustbringer. We've already seen Naln be "the only Herald to join his own order." This leaves open the option that others either have or can join other orders.

As for breaking things and not making art, sounds very much like the current Shalash, at least around her own statues and portraits.

[Leuthie]

12 minutes ago, Herald Of Justice said:

The problem with ash being a Dustbringer is that her attributes are creativity and honesty.

And Dustbringers like breaking things not making art.

 

Read what you just wrote.  Then, think about what Ash has been doing the entire series thus far...

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

Just now, Leuthie said:

Read what you just wrote.  Then, think about what Ash has been doing the entire series thus far...

the Nahel Bond fills in the cracks in someone’s soul. So if she was to bond an ashspren her soul would be repaired and she would be back to being creative. 

[Toaster Retribution]

4 minutes ago, Herald Of Justice said:

the Nahel Bond fills in the cracks in someone’s soul. So if she was to bond an ashspren her soul would be repaired and she would be back to being creative. 

Not really. Every Radiant has been cracked this far, and they have bonded spren, snd still have got their issues. Nale is a great example. He has cracks, and is insane (he can't feel feelings), but he is still bonded to a Highspren. The bond hasn't cured Nales madness, and so I doubt it will cure Ashs.

[Wandering Investor]

15 minutes ago, Crylorenzo said:

one argument for why is because her spren's grandfather is a deadeye and a willshaper spren in shadesmar mentioned his fathre being a deadeye, if I remember correctly

The spren specifically mentions that his father is a dead eye and that his daughter ran off. Timbre then mentions that the Human Radiants killed her grandfather. That's why people make that connection.

9 minutes ago, Herald Of Justice said:

the Nahel Bond fills in the cracks in someone’s soul. So if she was to bond an ashspren her soul would be repaired and she would be back to being creative. 

Repairing the cracks in the soul doesn't mean the soul returns to how it was. Also, the traits associated with the Heralds may have been assigned by people, and do not necessarily describe the Heralds. They might, but even if they did its possible that the Heralds could change over time.

[Calderis]

Alright, so once again this topic comes up, only now we have Malata to muddle things. 

Malata opened the Oathgate for the Fused to attack Urithiru. She's not a good guy. 

Here's where things started getting interesting with Ash pre-OB.  

Quote

Questioner

Have we... I think you mentioned in a previous signing that we’d already met one member of every Order of the Knights Radiant.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I think you have.

Questioner

My question is, have we met two Edgedancers? And is one of the Dustbringers a viewpoint character?

Brandon Sanderson

One of the Dustbringers is eventually a point-of-view character.

Questioner

Haven’t been yet?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not yet, I don’t think. But it depends if you count the Heralds as members of their order.

Questioner

I don’t.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, see I would, because they’re kind of heads of their Order. If you don’t count them you have not met some from every Order.

Questioner

Have we met someone from the Dustbringers?

Brandon Sanderson

Well… Dustbringers are really complicated. Really complicated. So that’s the weird one. Okay? So let’s shelve that one. You’ll see why it’s really weird later on.

Ash, former head of the Lightweavers, get a Dustbringer spren (which would do nothing to fix her, where did that idea come from?) and you have a complicated situation, that Brandon didn't want to spoil. 

Still all about Ash as our Dustbringer. Have been for a while. The divine attributes are in world creations/observations. They're not a mandate. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Calderis

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

Why does so many people say this? I feel I lost something, or perhaps  didn't read that specific thread...

Mostly because she goes around destroying things, specifically images of herself, and we have a small sense of ashspren/Dustbringers being very fond of breaking things apart to see what's inside.. We also have a Dustbringer that's not exactly one of the good guys, so the setup is there for a switcheroo.

The moment when Dalinar was looking around and saw all ten people, Ash was there. The fact is that these ten people are the same ten people that will get backstory POVs (with Venli in place of Eshonai) further reinforces that these ten are the ten that are the new founding Radiants. We'll just have to wait and see if Ash already has a bond with a spren, or if she'll make one in the coming books.

One thing is certain: Ash has no business being a Lightweaver these days, and I wonder if she was ever very well suited to her role. We've seen how she's grown to resent it.

[Aminar]

1 hour ago, Herald Of Justice said:

the Nahel Bond fills in the cracks in someone’s soul. So if she was to bond an ashspren her soul would be repaired and she would be back to being creative. 

Cue best old Han Solo voice(which is also exactly how Teft sounds). "That's not how the bond works." 

She's over 4500 years old. The things that defined her thousands of years ago don't apply at all. I'm not the same person I was 5 years ago. Or last year. Let alone having 4500 years of guilt, self loathing, and mental illness to grapple with. 

And the bond doesn't fix anything. Teft, Kal, and Shallan show that with incredible clarity. 

[StormingTexan]

2 hours ago, Crylorenzo said:

When Dalinar combined all three realms and all the surgebinders walked up, there was a sense that all 10 orders were present (Venli being the Willshaper). All are obvious to us as readers except Venli and Shalash and Taln, though we assume he'll resume being a Stoneward. 

 

27 minutes ago, Rainier said:

The moment when Dalinar was looking around and saw all ten people, Ash was there. The fact is that these ten people are the same ten people that will get backstory POVs (with Venli in place of Eshonai) further reinforces that these ten are the ten that are the new founding Radiants. We'll just have to wait and see if Ash already has a bond with a spren, or if she'll make one in the coming books.

Just to clarify Dalinar does NOT see 10 orders represented he only see's 9. Presumably the 10th is Venli that is off scene and represents Willshapers.

Quote

 

Those two only make nine, he thought to the Stormfather. Something told him there should be one more.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1142). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition

 

. 

[Stormrunner1730]

I do think Ash is going to die.  I think all of the Heralds will die by the end of the series.  This will lead to Odium being free from his prison (unless a new Honor/Oathpact is formed).  But I think Brandon will show us Odium at his full strength (or close to it) by the end of the series.  In order for this to happne, all of the Heralds need to die.  

As far and Ash becoming Dustbringer, I buy into this theory.  She's also been going around.. destroying...anything with her likeness (the key word here being "destroyed").  I don't think Malata is going to be our Dusbringer POV and/or focus book character.  I think we'll see multiple members of each order, and Malata just happens to be the first Dustbringer that we've seen.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Stormrunner1730

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, Herald Of Justice said:

The reason for this is that we have a WOB that each book is dedicated to a DIFFERENT order of Radiants.

This sentence is permeated with "hears, but does not listen." I don't mean to sound particularly rude, but this is the third time I've done this.

On 11/24/2017 at 3:26 PM, The One Who Connects said:

You're equating the flashback character of a book with the order the book will focus on. They are two separate things, and Brandon has directly stated that they will not always match up. All the WoB says is that the book will have a flashback character, and that the book will focus on an Order.

On 10/17/2017 at 3:51 PM, The One Who Connects said:

On a side-note, these WoB's provide us with several possibilities:

1. Shalash bonds a Spren and becomes a Dustbringer, allowing us to learn about the Dustbringers in her book.
2. Chana is indisposed(or dead) at the time of Shalash's book, so she takes command of the Dustbringers in the interim, allowing us to learn about Dustbringers in her book without her being a Dustbringer.
3. Shalash takes up Chana's Honorblade(for reasons), allowing us to learn different stuff about Dustbringer powers from her, and learning about the Order itself from some minor character like say.. Redin.

4. Shalash could be a member of literally any of the Orders, or none of them, during her flashback book, and we learn about Dustbringers from a different member of the primary three viewpoints(like Kal/Shallan in WoK/WoR).
5. Shalash could be dead at the time of her book(like Eshonai), and we learn about Dustbringers from whoever replaces her in the primary viewpoints.
6. Shalash x Dustbringer romance/professional relationship, allowing us to learn about Dustbringers from a more minor character involved in the main narrative. (Kinda like if we'd been learning about Shallan's order from Adolin's PoV of her, so Brandon can switch it up on us)
7. Literally anything else that would lead us to learn about the Dustbringers, so long as it is interspersed with Shalash's flashbacks in a way that makes sense.

Nothing Brandon has stated prevents any of these, but everyone seems to think it automatically has to be option 1, which is why I've gone back to using the phrase "connecting dots that aren't necessarily there."

---

Brandon loves to switch things up on us, but he also likes coming up with new and inventive ways to change it up. So as for your theory itself, I'd say it's not as likely anymore because we already have this happening now, what with Eshonai indisposed and Venli taking her place in the narrative.

[Angsos]

Alcatraz will be your Dustbringer, he'll break the bonds of story.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Angsos

[Dryone_2]

Shalash will not die, but she might kill Malata. 

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

Just to clarify Dalinar does NOT see 10 orders represented he only see's 9. Presumably the 10th is Venli that is off scene and represents Willshapers.

Good point, and a small distinction I forgot. It still indicates that those 9 are 9/10 of the re-founding Radiants, and we as readers know what Dalinar doesn't: #10 is Venli and she was there, too.

8 minutes ago, Dryone_2 said:

Shalash will not die, but she might kill Malata. 

Pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease let me see this.

[Wit Beyond Measure]

5 hours ago, Herald Of Justice said:

Ok so I have a theory that Shalash can not live through the Stormlight Archive. The reason for this is that we have a WOB that each book is dedicated to a DIFFERENT order of Radiants. The current flashbacks are set as:

Kaladin: Windrunner

Shallan: Lightweaver 

Dalinar: Bondsmith

Eshonai: Willshaper

Szeth: Skybreaker 

Lift: Edgedancer

Jasnah: Elsecaller 

Taln: Stoneward 

Renarin: Truthwatcher 

Shalash: Lightweaver

 See the problem there are two Lightweaver books, and no Dustbringer books. When we know that Sanderson said that we are going to have ONE book for each order. So in my opinion Ash dies, Malata takes the Lead for that book, but we still get Shalash’s backstory.

So how do we know that these characters are going to receive flashback focus in each book?  I assume you're listing them in order with Ash's flashbacks being the focus of the tenth and last book?  I mean, I get that Brandon said so, but I'm looking for the original source, please.  Thanks!

If the final book is focused on Dustbringers and especially if we don't learn much about them until then, that plays well into my theory that Dustbringers are in fact Voidbringers - an unpopular theory but my favorite.  I'm loving how deliberately enigmatic our intell is on this order.  All we know is that they love to destroy things (like worlds, maybe), and that their ashspren (turning everything to ash and sharing a name with Ash) hate Honor and the other Radiants. 

The Herald Ash doesn't seem filled so much by hatred of others as she does of hatred of herself, though.  She loves Taln, clearly, and so if she does become a Voidbringer, I hope that she's one of the good ones.  One of the vegetarians, like Wyndle, who don't feed on human souls.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[The One Who Connects]

10 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

So how do we know that these characters are going to receive flashback focus in each book?  I assume you're listing them in order with Ash's flashbacks being the focus of the tenth and last book?  I mean, I get that Brandon said so, but I'm looking for the original source, please.  Thanks!

We know who all 10 characters are.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, I was gonna ask about which character the next book would focus on?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Oh, no, that's not spoilery... I said from the get-go I am perfectly all right writing a flashback sequence for a character who has already died in the books. So it's not telling you any spoilers to tell you who the various characters are. So, the front five are Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Eshonai, and Szeth. Those are our front five. And our back five are Lift, Jasnah, Ash, Taln, and Renarin. And, not in that order. I've flipped the order quite a bit as I've been going. 'Cause Dalinar was gonna be book five, and now he's book three. So now Szeth is book five, and Eshonai is book four. Right now, Lift is book six. But the back five, I'm not concerned about, other than making sure I'm setting up the right things, and it's gonna come together.

We do not know the Order of the back five, but we do have his planned order from September of 2016.

Quote

Back five are Lift, Renarin, Ash, Taln, Jasnah. Not necessarily in that order. (Though that is the planned order right now.)

Edited December 22, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Steeldancer]

Addressing the topic of the thread: Shallash needs to die so I can have Taln to myself. I don't like to share.

[Song]

Her name is Ash. So she has that in common with the Dustbringer spren!

[Crylorenzo]

12 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

You're equating the flashback character of a book with the order the book will focus on. They are two separate things, and Brandon has directly stated that they will not always match up. All the WoB says is that the book will have a flashback character, and that the book will focus on an Order.

Perhaps this belongs in a different topic, I don't know, being relatively new to this, but could Oathbringer itself be an example of this? Honestly, I don't feel like the Bondsmiths themselves were in focus as far as Orders go this book - sure we see Dalinar say some cool oaths and do some cool things, but we don't really LEARN about the order - that would be the Skybreakers that we learn about. Either way, I still think that Ash may turn out to be a Dustbringer, more from how Dalinar felt than from anything else. I like the idea of a Herald joining a different order as it's a contrast from what we have seen.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Crylorenzo

[Leuthie]

On 12/22/2017 at 9:39 AM, Herald Of Justice said:

the Nahel Bond fills in the cracks in someone’s soul. So if she was to bond an ashspren her soul would be repaired and she would be back to being creative. 

Spren are attracted to actions and feelings that match their Intent.  The Nahel bond required some opening in the Spirit Web for the Spren to take hold in.  The bond itself makes the human more like the Spren.  There is no repairing going on.