Wit Beyond Measure

[OB] Secrets to Parshendi Forms, Thunderclasts, & Urithiru

49 posts in this topic

32 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Forget future battles, we got our first look at Thunderclasts in one of Dalinar's visions. Where was he? The Purelake

Haha, yes, my thoughts exactly. I think Dalinar's vision of the destruction of Kholinar included some thunderclasts too. And now at Thaylen City. More data points for @MonsterMetroid's maps? 

 

3 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Fins and arrowheads?!!  This fortress sounds like it could have been created through a gemheart bond, just like the thunderclasts (and possibly Urithiru though Urithiru doesn't seem to resemble any creatures).

Fins and Arrowheads? That sounds a lot like Mandras to me. You may just be onto something there @Wit Beyond Measure

While I don't believe that thunderclasts are formed with corrupted Mandra spren, there's definitely a lot more to them than we've seen so far. 

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Is there anything to say that greatshells and chasmfiends aren't just parshendi who have bonded certain spren (perhaps luckspren)?

 

That would mean that these creatures are just parshendi in a different form.

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7 minutes ago, Kaleid said:

Is there anything to say that greatshells and chasmfiends aren't just parshendi who have bonded certain spren (perhaps luckspren)?

 

That would mean that these creatures are just parshendi in a different form.

The only things that chasmfiends have in common with Parshendi seems to be that they have gemhearts that can bond with spren, and even with that, the Parshendi gemhearts are quite different (white, I think) than the chasmfiend ones.  All other Parshendi forms, and even the Parshmen who are likely Parshendi with gemhearts removed, are easily recognizable as Parshendi.  And I would hope that the Parshendi would not hunt their brothers and defile their bodies.

I used to think that all gemheart creatures (chasmfiends, greatshells, skyeels, and Rhyshadium) were the same creature with different creature forms, similar to what the Parshendi do with their forms, but all of these creatures appear to be bonding the same spren (luckspren also known as Mandras) where Parshendi forms are determined by the type of spren being bonded.  There may still be some mystery there, though, especially with the chasmfiends.

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On 12/20/2017 at 6:29 AM, Wit Beyond Measure said:
Quote

“The records below,” Navani said, “speak of this tower like a living thing. With a heart of emerald and ruby, and now these veins of garnet.”

...“If this tower was alive,” Dalinar said, “then it’s dead now.”

“Or sleeping. But if that’s the case, I have no idea how to wake it. We’ve tried infusing the heart like a fabrial, even had Renarin try to push Stormlight into it. Nothing’s worked.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1021). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

So we wake it just as the Fuzed woke Thunderclasts from stone, right?  We bond Urithiru with a spren.  Or multiple spren.  Spren that can be trapped in a heart of emerald and ruby.

Hmm That's super interesting I always just thought they inhabited the stone itself, but it would make sense that the Thunderclasts would use a gemstone to form there stone body around! Where are the inquistitive minds of the world we need autopsies gosh dang it!!!

17 hours ago, Varion said:
17 hours ago, Rainier said:

Forget future battles, we got our first look at Thunderclasts in one of Dalinar's visions. Where was he? The Purelake

Haha, yes, my thoughts exactly. I think Dalinar's vision of the destruction of Kholinar included some thunderclasts too. And now at Thaylen City. More data points for @MonsterMetroid's maps? 

Yeah interestingly I do have purelake as a likely place that gemhearts would be spread haphazardly around as the the bottom of the purelake was described (going off memory here) as having ridges and holes.

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40 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

And you had spots somewhat near Thaylen City too, right, @MonsterMetroid?

I guess I can show you what I have been working on. I'm far from done but this is based on @Otto Didact amazing map found here

Roshar_space_v2_GemStone.png.ce4e06fa3b3d64a6fac105ef66db9425.png

So I don't have a super detailed portion of Thaylenah city but it looks plausible that storms could deposit gemstones there from kira area. The only concern is that thaylenah mountains are offering a lot of protection to the city there.

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Does any one know or guess how many forms there could be? We know there are nine types of fused. But not for certain the numbers for the regale and the listerners. Are all void spren just corrupted forms of normal one? So for each regal, there is a pure form. We know at least one of the unmade can at minimum make a kind of spren.

it seems like honor and cultivation like the number ten, but odium prefers nine. The impression I got was there could be more forms than would be accounted by these numbers.

i think it is implied that lesser spren coming together can form shard plate. I wonder if void spren could be similarly shaped. It could be a way to grant the power of the regals to humans.

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4 hours ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

Does any one know or guess how many forms there could be? We know there are nine types of fused. But not for certain the numbers for the regale and the listerners.

Of total Parshendi forms, I suspect there are around a hundred!  The Listener Song of Listing has at least 279 stanzas.  We have seen 20 of these stanzas giving 12 different forms.  So I think there may be a hundred forms, including all of the void ones.

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Are all void spren just corrupted forms of normal one? So for each regal, there is a pure form. We know at least one of the unmade can at minimum make a kind of spren.

I suspect that all Voidspren are regular spren who have been corrupted, with most of these spren being fused with ancient Listener souls (all called the Fused, at least).

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If all void spren are corrupted spren, then their pure forms should have some kind of power as well. Imagine if the listerners had a way to purify their trapped spren.

 

i had a theory about about how the unmade and fused could be dealt with, but if all void spren could be reverted, then there would no longer be regals. If the listerners have a way to summon specific spren for bonding, then if they could be summon enmass, they could all be cured at once.

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3 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

 

I suspect that all Voidspren are regular spren who have been corrupted, with most of these spren being fused with ancient Listener souls (all called the Fused, at least).

Is that why Ulim and the yellow one could think without a bond? I was curious about that.

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15 minutes ago, Song said:

Is that why Ulim and the yellow one could think without a bond? I was curious about that.

Yeah, I don't know.  It would be logical to assume that Fused spren can think as long as they're not too insane because they are Fused (bonded) to the ancient souls even without a host.  But I didn't think Ulim was a Fused, so I have no idea how an unbonded spren would be as cognizant as Ulim is.

The yellow one is Timbre?  Timbre gets more and more cognizant as she forms the Nahel bond with Venli.  She was in the process of forming the Nahel bond with Eshonai before Eshonai died.  So just like Syl grows more and more aware before Kal speaks his first oaths, so does Timbre.  The Nahel bond usually forms outside of the gemheart since humans don't have gemhearts, and can only be formed by Radiant spren. 

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1 hour ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Yeah, I don't know.  It would be logical to assume that Fused spren can think as long as they're not too insane because they are Fused (bonded) to the ancient souls even without a host.  But I didn't think Ulim was a Fused, so I have no idea how an unbonded spren would be as cognizant as Ulim is.

The yellow one is Timbre?  Timbre gets more and more cognizant as she forms the Nahel bond with Venli.  She was in the process of forming the Nahel bond with Eshonai before Eshonai died.  So just like Syl grows more and more aware before Kal speaks his first oaths, so does Timbre.  The Nahel bond usually forms outside of the gemheart since humans don't have gemhearts, and can only be formed by Radiant spren. 

They're Cognitive Shadows, not the regular spren that are normally referred to as spren.  CS maintain their intelligence without any bond.  They become the Fused when they take over a Singer body.

I'm not sure yet what Ulim is.

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10 hours ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

Does any one know or guess how many forms there could be? We know there are nine types of fused. But not for certain the numbers for the regale and the listerners. Are all void spren just corrupted forms of normal one? So for each regal, there is a pure form. We know at least one of the unmade can at minimum make a kind of spren.

In WoR, Eshonai says:

Quote

The old songs spoke of hundreds of forms. Now they knew of only five. Well, six if one counted slaveform, the form with no spren, no soul, and no song.

(Also @Wit Beyond Measure that's where slaveform was canonized :D )

Edited by RShara
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38 minutes ago, RShara said:

(Also @Wit Beyond Measure that's where slaveform was canonized :D )

It's also the source of Slaveform being the only form with no spren. Dullform does. 

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2 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

 

The yellow one is Timbre?  Timbre gets more and more cognizant as she forms the Nahel bond with Venli.  She was in the process of forming the Nahel bond with Eshonai before Eshonai died.  So just like Syl grows more and more aware before Kal speaks his first oaths, so does Timbre.  The Nahel bond usually forms outside of the gemheart since humans don't have gemhearts, and can only be formed by Radiant spren. 

I meant the one with the Parshman and Kaladin. Yixli?

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4 hours ago, Song said:

I meant the one with the Parshman and Kaladin. Yixli?

Ah, yes.  She was much like an envoy, too.  Perhaps Sja-anat or some powerful Unmade was able to imbue these spren with sapience.

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What if the corruption process can enhance awareness? So spren that would not usually be aware, would become somewhat sentient.

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We didn't see that with any of the emotionspren around Kholinar.  I'm sure Odium *could* enhance awareness, but it seems more likely that those spren are ones that are serving him voluntarily.  They have no hint of red, iirc, which is a sign of corrupted or co-opted Investiture.

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Nahel bonded spren likely exhibit sapience in the physical realm because of their connection to the KR, which allows them to draw their awareness more fully into that realm. Odium has likely done something similar for Ulim and other spren, by somehow binding them to something in the Physical Realm. 

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4 hours ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

What if the corruption process can enhance awareness? So spren that would not usually be aware, would become somewhat sentient.

Glys seemed quite unclear about the corruption process or what happened before bonding, so while that's possible it doesn't seem to be a given.

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I just keep on wondering if there is more than one type if corruption. Some could be very useful.

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On 30.12.2017 at 11:50 AM, dvoraen said:

 Given that the Unmade have a rather heavy touch (virtually all of them "consume" in some manner), I think it's safe to say that this Connection she made was parasitic at best, taking control of them "as Odium once did". 

 

Actually, there is some evidence that BAM's control was more extensive than what we have seen from Odium so far. I am currently re-reading WoR, and there are many mentions in Parshendi lore from Eshonai's chapters that not only could she force forms on the Last Legion, but that prior to their rebellion and escape, they had been unable to transform on their own except into the mate form. Then somebody discovered the dull form - that, apparently, somehow healed whatever deficiency BAM introduced into the parsh, but the newly free listeners had to re-discover how to assume other forms basically from scratch.

 

On 30.12.2017 at 11:50 AM, dvoraen said:

Once she was captured, her Connection with them was completely ripped away, leaving nothing but a big gaping scar where their Identity and minds used to be.  She "consumed" (overrode) the part of them that facilitated transformation when bonding a spren, and the removal of her presence effectively neutered them, completely severing their Connections. 

Indeed. Creation of the parshmen was a 2-step-process. BAM had already mutilated the parsh by robbing them of their natural transformation abilties and making herself into the only source of forms - both void and normal ones (except for the mateform) and Connected to all parsh who wore them, so that when she was imprisoned, they were transformed into the parshmen.

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In the Words of Brandon, I've been noticing how often he talks about the Horneaters and Herdazians being kinned to the Parshendi, part-Parshendi.  One fan asks why Horneaters can see spren, and Brandon answers by emphasizing the Parshendi bloodline that Horneaters have, implying that this is the reason Horneaters can see spren. So I'm wondering why Brandon created and emphasizes this relationship.  Could it be possible that, especially with the Horneaters seeing spren, a Horneater could have a gemheart?  And, if so, could they have different forms?

That moment when Rock fires the Shardbow is so shocking to Kaladin that he wonders how that was even possible, even with Stormlight.  When an author writes something like that, and especially when Sanderson does, that is usually an awesome clue that the reader should be wondering exactly the same thing.  As his bridge leader, Kal should know Rock's strength pretty well.  And so the implication is that something strange is going on in that scene (OB 1187).

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I wonder why those two human populations have listerner blood, if it was just the horn eaters peaks, I would attribute it to the unique nature of those mountains. But herdaz nothing special has been mentioned, except they are also a mountain range primarily.

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14 hours ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

I wonder why those two human populations have listerner blood, if it was just the horn eaters peaks, I would attribute it to the unique nature of those mountains. But herdaz nothing special has been mentioned, except they are also a mountain range primarily.

Harsh environments with small populations that don't have much contact with the rest of the world may be more likely to result in interbreeding?

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