theory [OB] Adolin and Shallan will not last

[agrabes]

18 hours ago, Karger said:

I think they are both mature enough to keep it from escalating.  Adolin certainly is.

That is more soap opera then brandon usually goes for.  It is also, in my view, not really believable for such realistic characters.  Can you honestly see a couple you know yelling at each other over this?  The only ones that come close in my mind are people who have never thought of their relationship as permanent(IE the cause of the breakup is not this it is just the excuse).  I think a confrontation over Shallan's unconscious lying may happen but Shallan is not overtly hostile about her issues she really does want help she is just scared about Adolin's reaction.  Assuming he remains supportive(and he is a people pleaser he likes it when he can make the people around him happy) Shallan may admit the truth to herself.

Again.  I give both of them more credit then that.  They both have issues but neither is particularly prone to sulking.  If they have a problem they will talk and work it out.  If they need space they will take it probably by finding plausible excuses to be away from each other for a while.  If that happens they will both work out how they feel and if the marriage really is a lost cause they will tone it down from lovers to "married friends," something I absolutely could see them being without issue. 

Is it?  Shallan may have not been her "full self" but what she said and felt was still real.

To clarify.  By feeling you don't necessarily mean just romantic ones.  Kaladin is a hotty.  Nothing wrong with being attracted.  He claims as well, I think with a fair degree of authenticity, that his feelings for her were never exactly or purely romantic.

I think the two of them finally untangling that knot would be good for both of them.  Talking about their loved ones could also lead to some great plot development on what the GB are doing so I definitely do think something along these lines are going to happen.

I have trouble believing two such vital people are set on a mission exclusively to sort out their relationship drama during the apocalypse.

I think you are underestimating how emotional people can be regarding their personal relationships and marriages.  If I were to find out that my wife had spent our entire relationship up until our marriage intentionally hiding major aspects of her personality from me, I would be very upset.  I committed my life to the person I knew at the time, and if she were to become a different person, that is a fundamental change in the foundation the marriage was built on.  I really do think this will be a source of conflict for Adolin and Shallan in RoW.  I admit, my possible plot scenario may have been a bit more "dramatic" than what Sanderson would normally and is probably not realistic.  But, I do think the evidence is there that Shallan hasn't shown her whole self to Adolin yet.  It's in her nature to hide things and show people what she thinks they want to see.  She opened up to Adolin at the end of OB, but they never fully discussed everything, which I think led to a partial misunderstanding.

In terms of feelings between Shallan and Kaladin, I think it's written in the books that they do have feelings for each other at different times.  The degree and depth of the feelings are different, and they both suppress them to one degree or another.  Look at the end of WoR - Kaladin hopes Shallan will look for him as she rides off after they return from the Chasms, implying that he hopes maybe a relationship could blossom between them, but when she doesn't he quickly gets demoralized and starts to suppress his feelings (WoR Ch.76).  Shallan, thinking about how Adolin just doesn't make her feel the same way Kaladin did when they were together, but quickly tells herself it's wrong to think that way about a man other than her fiance and that it's OK if Adolin's personality is less compatible with her than Kaladin (WoR Ch. 77).  

As to the nature of Kaladin's feelings there has been a recentish WoB about this topic which supports my opinion and finally clarifies what Sanderson intended with that scene at the end of OB.  Essentially - Sanderson says that Kaladin is telling himself that his feelings couldn't have become love and/or were never love, but that Kaladin is not right about that.  He explicitly says that the Lightweaver effect was a component of Kaladin's feelings, but it was not the entirety of them.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/387-fanx-spring-2019/#e12652  This is just Kaladin being Kaladin, like he was in WoR after the chasms.  He is trying to let himself down easy and convince himself it never could have been and he never wanted it anyway.  I think a conversation where Shallan sits down and tells Kaladin "Hey, ya know I had a little crush on you back then" would do wonders for Kaladin's self esteem not just in romance but his own sense of self value.  He tells himself that no one really wants to be with him or be his friend just for him as a person, everyone wants to be with him because they serve with him, they want or need his help, etc.  He tells himself that someone he admires as much as Shallan could never be interested in him as a man.  That he's not good enough for someone like her and that he's a lesser person than both Shallan and Adolin.  I think it would hugely valuable for him as a character to realize that people like him for him.  He doesn't really have friends, only superiors and subordinates and mission objectives.  I think the same could be true for Shallan, though to a lesser extent.  I think it would be good for her to realize that there was a possible relationship there with Kaladin, but that it was healthy for her to cut it off out of loyalty to Adolin.  I think it would be valuable if she recognized that she intentionally chose to do it fairly quickly after the Chasm scene, even before she pushed it off into Veil to hide the feelings.

I think as far as sending Shallan and Adolin together - I think if my somewhat melodramatic plot idea happens, then it's not a situation of "Let's just send these two out somewhere to work on their relationship" but more like "Ok, we know Shallan needs to go on this mission and we could send any number of people with her.  Let's make sure that second person is Adolin."

 

15 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Well, I kind of think that's not something we can say in the present tense. We ended Oathbringer on Shallan's realization but we have no idea what it's actually going to look like yet. She was papering over things in Oathbringer, but it was leading up the moment at the very end of the book when Shallan admits that she's not okay. Since we don't know what happens after that moment, I don't think we can say what resulted.

I don't think I agree with the bolded; we don't see enough of exactly what Adolin thinks. And also, Veil and Radiant are definitely partially fake! Though Shallan does use them to shunt off some of the things she can't admit about herself, they are also built up of personality traits and experience that are not real. They are not 100% fake or real.

I think it's fair to say we can't say for sure what exactly Shallan will do going forward either in the one year gap or in RoW.  I was rereading some of those sections at the end of OB and you're right it's less clear than I was thinking.  It's not clear whether or not (or how much) she's increased or decreased her control over Veil and Radiant.  I do think it's shown that as of the end of OB she does not yet have full control - since they pop up on their own as she's getting dressed for the wedding.  There's also the WoB already quoted in this thread that says Wit would consider as of the end of OB that she's taken a good step but that she's not there yet.  She recognizes she's not ok and seems to have stopped things from getting worse, but I think scenes late in OB show that she's still not starting to get better as of the end of OB.  

I do think we can get a good idea of how Adolin views Shallan's current mental state, even if we don't see it directly from his POV.  I think if we look at their conversation where Shallan reveals her identity problems to Adolin in Ch. 108 of OB, and combine it with the way we know he treats Veil as if she is a different person (Ch 122 OB) it seems pretty clear how Adolin perceives things.  In Ch. 108, she talks about how she crafted Radiant to be more desirable for Adolin and he has a pretty negative reaction to that.  In their conversations about the personas in Ch. 108, Shallan talks about creating fake personas to hide her flaws.  She frames the conversation in a way that says she pretends to be Veil or Radiant in order to not be herself and who she really is.  She never tells him that those personas contain parts of the real her and she never tells him that the her he thinks is the real her is missing those parts.  So I think we have to assume that Adolin assumes that the "Shallan" he's known up until she really breaks down in late OB is the real and true her, while the Veil and Radiant personas are fake personalities she uses to hide her flaws.  He kind of confirms this in Ch. 121, when he says it's worrisome that she becomes other people.  He says he does not want to marry three different people, only what he considers the real her.  We know this isn't really true, that she hides aspects of herself from him both intentionally and unintentionally.  But he doesn't.

I do agree that the personas are not 100% fake or real, both are built on a core of truth about Shallan, but then filled in with made up stories.  But, like I said above, I think that's part of the problem because I don't believe that Adolin understands this.  

 

[Karger]

1 minute ago, agrabes said:

It's in her nature to hide things and show people what she thinks they want to see.  She opened up to Adolin at the end of OB, but they never fully discussed everything, which I think led to a partial misunderstanding.

That is true to some extent but what she felt was still real.  If your wife was still working through some things and did not yet feel entirely comfortable talking about them with you until later but eventually got up the courage to talk to you about them or you found out and talked with her about them in a supportive way do you think you might be able to work through them without much issue?

3 minutes ago, agrabes said:

He explicitly says that the Lightweaver effect was a component of Kaladin's feelings, but it was not the entirety of them.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/387-fanx-spring-2019/#e12652 

He also said those feelings "could have become love" implying they were not yet.  Kaladin is nipping this at the bud.  It is done, Shallan is happy, and Kaladin has his own work to do.  I personally see Jasnah as Kaladin's frenemy.  I think you could do a lot with that where as Shallan is increasingly becoming a mess for Kaladin to be involved with even socially.

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That is true to some extent but what she felt was still real.  If your wife was still working through some things and did not yet feel entirely comfortable talking about them with you until later but eventually got up the courage to talk to you about them or you found out and talked with her about them in a supportive way do you think you might be able to work through them without much issue?

He also said those feelings "could have become love" implying they were not yet.  Kaladin is nipping this at the bud.  It is done, Shallan is happy, and Kaladin has his own work to do.  I personally see Jasnah as Kaladin's frenemy.  I think you could do a lot with that where as Shallan is increasingly becoming a mess for Kaladin to be involved with even socially.

I think it really depends on the issue.  If it turns out she had been hiding significant portions of who she was, intentionally or unintentionally, then that is a fundamental change in the nature of the relationship.  I would want her to be true to herself, of course.  But if her true self is different than the self I thought she was and that we planned our future together based on, that requires serious discussion and could change the nature of our marriage forever.  I'm not saying Adolin and Shallan can't work through their issues (or that I couldn't in my own life), but what I'm saying is these will be serious issues that will cause tempers to flare, feelings to be seriously hurt, and will take serious time to heal and recover from.  I don't think it's a "Hey, thank you for telling me, I totally understand!" kind of conversation.

Yeah, I think that's a fair interpretation of the WoB.  I don't think you could call Kaladin's feelings for Shallan "true love" or something like that - after all they really spent very little time getting to know each other.  I don't believe there was a chance for real love to develop.  But the way I read the WoB is that it's saying Kaladin had real romantic feelings for Shallan that could have developed into a true love if they had been given the chance, that it wasn't true that this was all just some illusion from Lightweaver magic and he never had any feelings for her.  To me, this is Brandon Sanderson saying that his intent in that section at the end of OB was to show that Kaladin is in denial about what his true feelings were, now that he knows he has to cut them off.  It's Sanderson saying we shouldn't read that sentence as literally true.  Which to me, is a much better and more logical ending for the triangle plot than the alternative.

For me personally, I don't think that Kaladin will become close with Jasnah.  She's a complete afterthought to him so far in the story - I'm not sure if he's ever even thought about her in scenes where she doesn't appear with him.  I think their personalities just don't serve to be supportive to each other.  Jasnah is cold, logical, and pragmatic with a relatively low emotional intelligence while Kaladin is very emotional and unwilling to compromise his principles just to get a better deal in politics.  I feel like they are people who will work together well as colleagues with constructive conflict but are too different to be friends.  I just can't imagine Jasnah being supportive of Kaladin when he's in a depressive mood, or Kaladin being able to help Jasnah with her own personal struggles which seem to be about prioritizing what she thinks is the best outcome based on logic vs. managing her personal relationships with others.

I think if Kaladin does find a friend that will help him grow as a person, it will be a Lightweaver.  The people who've helped him the most are lightweavers (Tien and Shallan).  I think the personality traits normally tied to that order and their magical abilities are suited to helping him work through his issues - helping him to recognize he doesn't need to beat himself up so badly and that he's actually done a very good job most of the time.  It doesn't have to be Shallan, but makes sense if it would be since they have an interesting existing friendship.  Also, Adolin is Kaladin's closest thing to a real friend, so I can't imagine he won't be in contact with Shallan.  What makes Shallan a mess for Kaladin right now is that he is totally in the dark about her mental state.  If he were to learn that, I think the messiness is gone.  And I think in learning that, it presents another opportunity for them to help each other grow.  Kaladin's problem is that he takes on all responsibility and crushes himself under the duty, thrusting the weakest parts of himself in the open to be destroyed.  Shallan's problem is she hides from responsibility and runs from challenges, hiding her weaknesses and never growing past them.  Seems like a great opportunity for them to have a conversation and help each other get a little of the other's coping mechanisms to help themselves deal better with their hardships.

Edited June 9, 2020 by agrabes

[Karger]

1 minute ago, agrabes said:

Jasnah is cold, logical, and pragmatic with a relatively low emotional intelligence while Kaladin is very emotional and unwilling to compromise his principles just to get a better deal in politics.  I feel like they are people who will work together well as colleagues with constructive conflict but are too different to be friends.  I just can't imagine Jasnah being supportive of Kaladin when he's in a depressive mood, or Kaladin being able to help Jasnah with her own personal struggles which seem to be about prioritizing what she thinks is the best outcome based on logic vs. managing her personal relationships with others.

Hence frenemies.  They support each other by vigorous opposition.

2 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I don't think it's a "Hey, thank you for telling me, I totally understand!" kind of conversation.

I have it more as a OK we will have to figure out how to deal with this.

[agrabes]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Hence frenemies.  They support each other by vigorous opposition.

I have it more as a OK we will have to figure out how to deal with this.

Yeah, just can't say I'm on board with that one.  I don't think that's a good way to go for Kaladin - he's already tough on himself.  Having someone else beating up on him for his mistakes isn't going to lead him to growth, imo.  I could see that kind of relationship possibly being good for Jasnah though.  I think it could be written in a good way if that's the way Sanderson decides to go.  Wouldn't be my choice, but that doesn't mean a lot :).

I think the more interesting plot is a moderately serious disagreement between Shallan and Adolin.  Not super melodramatic, but serious enough that they question if they really want the same things out of life and if a marriage really makes sense for them.  Something serious enough that they aren't just sitting down thinking they're still on the same page and can just work through it together.  They're having conversations about what each of them really, truly wants and what is the best path forward and whether or not that is together.

[Greywatch]

6 hours ago, agrabes said:

She recognizes she's not ok and seems to have stopped things from getting worse, but I think scenes late in OB show that she's still not starting to get better as of the end of OB.  

Yep, her realization comes very late, she barely has any scenes after it happens.

Quote

I do think we can get a good idea of how Adolin views Shallan's current mental state, even if we don't see it directly from his POV.  I think if we look at their conversation where Shallan reveals her identity problems to Adolin in Ch. 108 of OB, and combine it with the way we know he treats Veil as if she is a different person (Ch 122 OB) it seems pretty clear how Adolin perceives things.  In Ch. 108, she talks about how she crafted Radiant to be more desirable for Adolin and he has a pretty negative reaction to that.  In their conversations about the personas in Ch. 108, Shallan talks about creating fake personas to hide her flaws.  She frames the conversation in a way that says she pretends to be Veil or Radiant in order to not be herself and who she really is.  She never tells him that those personas contain parts of the real her and she never tells him that the her he thinks is the real her is missing those parts.  So I think we have to assume that Adolin assumes that the "Shallan" he's known up until she really breaks down in late OB is the real and true her, while the Veil and Radiant personas are fake personalities she uses to hide her flaws.  He kind of confirms this in Ch. 121, when he says it's worrisome that she becomes other people.  He says he does not want to marry three different people, only what he considers the real her.  We know this isn't really true, that she hides aspects of herself from him both intentionally and unintentionally.  But he doesn't.

I think Adolin sees the reality; we can't admit that Veil and Radiant are partially fake and then say that Adolin is wrong to see their fakeness. When Adolin goes and does his whole moment of looking into her eyes and realizes that there's more than one person listed under "Shallan", that is a real insight. Adolin does know, and he's the one we see in the books who is the only one who figures some of it out without Shallan having to tell him.

[Aminar]

Every Relationship is built on people not revealing parts of themself. People are constantly growing and changing and discovering things about themself they didn't know. Things they have a hard time articulating. Things they struggle with or fear judgement about. If you want a partner that never changes their identity you're going to have a hard time. Relationships are about committing to a person's present, and future self. Relationships can end when people grow apart. That happens. But feeling betrayed by a partner growing, changing, or struggling with their identity says more about the person feeling betrayed.

[agrabes]

11 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Yep, her realization comes very late, she barely has any scenes after it happens.

I think Adolin sees the reality; we can't admit that Veil and Radiant are partially fake and then say that Adolin is wrong to see their fakeness. When Adolin goes and does his whole moment of looking into her eyes and realizes that there's more than one person listed under "Shallan", that is a real insight. Adolin does know, and he's the one we see in the books who is the only one who figures some of it out without Shallan having to tell him.

Yeah - very true, there wasn't much time to show anything more about her in OB.  I personally feel that there were hints being dropped in those last chapters that she's not going to make much progress without another major event.  Things like her saying she could be three women, and Adolin could have three wives, with his negative reaction to that.  The sections where Radiant and Veil appear on their own and talk to Shallan as if they are real, independent people.  The line about how Adolin views Veil as a separate woman who is not his wife.  In that same line, Shallan points out she doesn't think she can tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods as herself and she needs to have Veil do it.  I think these are all indications there are still issues there and some tension should result.  But, I can also definitely see how someone else could interpret that differently.  

The one thing I will say is that Adolin is definitely perceptive and he's picked up on this better than anyone else, but he gets help.  I don't think you're remembering the scene correctly, or maybe I'm forgetting about another scene - but there is not a moment when he looks into her eyes and realizes on his own that there is more than one person in there.  He has a lot more clues than anyone else.  He sees her sitting on the ship in Shadesmar drawing dozens of pictures of variants of herself and she directly tells him she is creating these personalities and she is losing control of them.  (Ch. 108 of OB, p 1012 in my hardcover version) He doesn't figure this out on his own and no one else gets these clues.  So we shouldn't give him more credit than he's due - where he should get credit is recognizing when she is using the personality he knows and sticking to his convictions that he doesn't want other, fake versions of her.  

That's why I say - he's picked up on some things and he's been told some things by Shallan which have skewed his perception.  I don't think Adolin is wrong to see Radiant and Veil's fakeness.  I don't think he's wrong at all - he's been misled.  If I were in those shoes it feels worse that someone tells you 80% of what's going on, while hiding 20% than just telling you nothing.  If they tell you nothing, it feels like they are just insecure and hiding things from everyone.  If they tell you part of it but hold back on key information, it feels like they are intentionally trying to deceive you.  He thinks it's Shallan: 100% Shallan, Veil: 100% Veil, Radiant, 100% Radiant when in reality is Shallan: 70% Shallan, Veil: 85% Veil, 15% Shallan, Radiant: 85% Radiant, 15% Shallan.  He's never known a complete, 100% fully integrated Shallan.  She'd already started creating Veil by the time they met.  That's not his fault and he shouldn't be blamed for it.  But, when he does get to meet that full, true, Shallan and realize that she has some of the character traits he didn't like in Veil, then it's logically going to cause some marital strife.  Doesn't mean it will cause a divorce, or long term problems.  But it will be a difficult issue to work through.

12 hours ago, Aminar said:

Every Relationship is built on people not revealing parts of themself. People are constantly growing and changing and discovering things about themself they didn't know. Things they have a hard time articulating. Things they struggle with or fear judgement about. If you want a partner that never changes their identity you're going to have a hard time. Relationships are about committing to a person's present, and future self. Relationships can end when people grow apart. That happens. But feeling betrayed by a partner growing, changing, or struggling with their identity says more about the person feeling betrayed.

Respectfully, I think what you've posted is half true and half bogus.  Of course relationships are based on people growing and changing and anyone who can't accept that is going to have problems in life.  A married couple should support each other, even when they face tough problems that are painful for one or the other of them.  People do hide things from others and have things they have a hard time articulating.  But, I think that there's a difference between a relationship and a marriage.  A marriage is a lifelong commitment between two people who have agreed to share everything.  If you want to get married, you enter into a relationship first to work through these kinds of issues.  If you don't feel that you can trust someone with your deepest darkest secrets that fundamentally make up who you are, you are not ready to marry that person.  If you keep those secrets from your partner, only to reveal them after marriage and demand that your partner makes major life changes to accommodate you, then you are in the wrong.  I'm not talking about things like "Hey, you know I'd like to start a new career" or "Look, I've been flattering you while we were dating but you are a terrible cook, so I'll handle the cooking from now on."  I'm talking about things like "Actually, I have a second life I've kept secret from you all this time" or "I don't think I can live a monogamous life".  It's not healthy to just roll over and say "Sure honey, it's fine" in those situations.  You have to have a line and you have to stand up for yourself.  You can't just erase yourself to support your partner.

People who love each other can work out a lot of problems, even ones that cause a lot of pain.  In terms of Adolin and Shallan's marriage, the things she has hidden from Adolin are the kinds of things that can cause pain for him.  And he would be right to protect himself and make an issue of them with her.  I don't think it would lead to divorce, but it will lead to serious challenge to their marriage.

[Aminar]

6 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Yeah - very true, there wasn't much time to show anything more about her in OB.  I personally feel that there were hints being dropped in those last chapters that she's not going to make much progress without another major event.  Things like her saying she could be three women, and Adolin could have three wives, with his negative reaction to that.  The sections where Radiant and Veil appear on their own and talk to Shallan as if they are real, independent people.  The line about how Adolin views Veil as a separate woman who is not his wife.  In that same line, Shallan points out she doesn't think she can tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods as herself and she needs to have Veil do it.  I think these are all indications there are still issues there and some tension should result.  But, I can also definitely see how someone else could interpret that differently.  

The one thing I will say is that Adolin is definitely perceptive and he's picked up on this better than anyone else, but he gets help.  I don't think you're remembering the scene correctly, or maybe I'm forgetting about another scene - but there is not a moment when he looks into her eyes and realizes on his own that there is more than one person in there.  He has a lot more clues than anyone else.  He sees her sitting on the ship in Shadesmar drawing dozens of pictures of variants of herself and she directly tells him she is creating these personalities and she is losing control of them.  (Ch. 108 of OB, p 1012 in my hardcover version) He doesn't figure this out on his own and no one else gets these clues.  So we shouldn't give him more credit than he's due - where he should get credit is recognizing when she is using the personality he knows and sticking to his convictions that he doesn't want other, fake versions of her.  

That's why I say - he's picked up on some things and he's been told some things by Shallan which have skewed his perception.  I don't think Adolin is wrong to see Radiant and Veil's fakeness.  I don't think he's wrong at all - he's been misled.  If I were in those shoes it feels worse that someone tells you 80% of what's going on, while hiding 20% than just telling you nothing.  If they tell you nothing, it feels like they are just insecure and hiding things from everyone.  If they tell you part of it but hold back on key information, it feels like they are intentionally trying to deceive you.  He thinks it's Shallan: 100% Shallan, Veil: 100% Veil, Radiant, 100% Radiant when in reality is Shallan: 70% Shallan, Veil: 85% Veil, 15% Shallan, Radiant: 85% Radiant, 15% Shallan.  He's never known a complete, 100% fully integrated Shallan.  She'd already started creating Veil by the time they met.  That's not his fault and he shouldn't be blamed for it.  But, when he does get to meet that full, true, Shallan and realize that she has some of the character traits he didn't like in Veil, then it's logically going to cause some marital strife.  Doesn't mean it will cause a divorce, or long term problems.  But it will be a difficult issue to work through.

Respectfully, I think what you've posted is half true and half bogus.  Of course relationships are based on people growing and changing and anyone who can't accept that is going to have problems in life.  A married couple should support each other, even when they face tough problems that are painful for one or the other of them.  People do hide things from others and have things they have a hard time articulating.  But, I think that there's a difference between a relationship and a marriage.  A marriage is a lifelong commitment between two people who have agreed to share everything.  If you want to get married, you enter into a relationship first to work through these kinds of issues.  If you don't feel that you can trust someone with your deepest darkest secrets that fundamentally make up who you are, you are not ready to marry that person.  If you keep those secrets from your partner, only to reveal them after marriage and demand that your partner makes major life changes to accommodate you, then you are in the wrong.  I'm not talking about things like "Hey, you know I'd like to start a new career" or "Look, I've been flattering you while we were dating but you are a terrible cook, so I'll handle the cooking from now on."  I'm talking about things like "Actually, I have a second life I've kept secret from you all this time" or "I don't think I can live a monogamous life".  It's not healthy to just roll over and say "Sure honey, it's fine" in those situations.  You have to have a line and you have to stand up for yourself.  You can't just erase yourself to support your partner.

People who love each other can work out a lot of problems, even ones that cause a lot of pain.  In terms of Adolin and Shallan's marriage, the things she has hidden from Adolin are the kinds of things that can cause pain for him.  And he would be right to protect himself and make an issue of them with her.  I don't think it would lead to divorce, but it will lead to serious challenge to their marriage.

Sure. But so will lots of things. Having Kids. Adolin learning how to be a High Prince. Changing gender dynamics. Working out intimacy. The fact the world is falling apart around them, which will be a far bigger strain on every relationship on Roshar than Shallan's identity crisis and trauma history will be on her relationship with Adolin. Relationships are about those things(minus the apocalypse). As for the difference between a relationship and a marriage. Eh. Marriage is just formalizing something. The commitment comes before then and the marriage just kind of tells people it's there. The dynamic of change and adaptation will never stop. It's that whole, Life is a Journey thing. Marriage isn't a destination. It shouldn't be treated like one any more than any other part of a relationship. But our society is really bad about that. 

[agrabes]

11 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Sure. But so will lots of things. Having Kids. Adolin learning how to be a High Prince. Changing gender dynamics. Working out intimacy. The fact the world is falling apart around them, which will be a far bigger strain on every relationship on Roshar than Shallan's identity crisis and trauma history will be on her relationship with Adolin. Relationships are about those things(minus the apocalypse). As for the difference between a relationship and a marriage. Eh. Marriage is just formalizing something. The commitment comes before then and the marriage just kind of tells people it's there. The dynamic of change and adaptation will never stop. It's that whole, Life is a Journey thing. Marriage isn't a destination. It shouldn't be treated like one any more than any other part of a relationship. But our society is really bad about that. 

Yeah, appreciate the response.  I think we're on the same page mostly about Shallan and Adolin.  Sure, I agree there are tons of other pressures on their relationship.  Even though those other issues are real and serious, I think it's reasonable that the pressure could boil over into just one thing which I think could reasonably be Shallan's identity issues.  Plot efficiency - we know that Shallan will have to work through those issues at some point, so why not also combine it as a way to flesh out her marriage to Adolin?

Can't say I agree with your take on marriage, though.  Religious and philosophical views aside, there is a legal difference between being married and not.  Once you sign that paper, your spouse owns half your stuff.  You can't just walk away from each other anymore.  The idea that marriage shouldn't be different from any other part of a relationship just logically doesn't make sense.  If it wasn't different, why would people get married?  There would be no need.  Or, why wouldn't they get married after their first date?  Marriage is different from other relationships.

If you want to put a marriage in terms of the Stormlight Archive - a relationship is like being a squire and a marriage is like being a Knight Radiant.  As a squire, you can leave and change completely at any point with no consequences.  Once you make that commitment to become a Radiant, you've made a solemn vow to behave in a certain way for the rest of your life.  You can and should still grow and change, but you've agreed to have certain limitations placed on you now.  There are very serious consequences now if you go back on your word.  You wouldn't say no one should become a Radiant because that is putting destination ahead of journey.  But for some people, maybe being a Radiant is not for them.  And that's OK.

 

[The Ryshadium]

I would personally be more interested to read about two people with issues trying to figure things out and work it out than to simply get divorced. I know that sometimes divorce is the right path for a couple. I just don't think Shallan and Adolin are at that point. I was totally on board for Shallan with Kaladin before Oathbringer, but I think Adolin understands Shallan better and is willing to be with her despite her faults. I didn't interpret it as him accepting and enabling her. He recognizes the real her as Wit does, and I'm hoping he encourages her to improve in RoW. I can't wait to see the tension and growth in their relationship. I see so much potential there, and I think it would be far less interesting for it to just end in divorce. This is all just my opinion though, and I know that others disagree. That is okay! I trust Brandon, so whatever direction he goes I'll probably be okay with in the end.

[Greywatch]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

The one thing I will say is that Adolin is definitely perceptive and he's picked up on this better than anyone else, but he gets help.  I don't think you're remembering the scene correctly, or maybe I'm forgetting about another scene - but there is not a moment when he looks into her eyes and realizes on his own that there is more than one person in there.  He has a lot more clues than anyone else.  He sees her sitting on the ship in Shadesmar drawing dozens of pictures of variants of herself and she directly tells him she is creating these personalities and she is losing control of them.  (Ch. 108 of OB, p 1012 in my hardcover version) He doesn't figure this out on his own and no one else gets these clues.  So we shouldn't give him more credit than he's due - where he should get credit is recognizing when she is using the personality he knows and sticking to his convictions that he doesn't want other, fake versions of her.  

For sure, that makes sense. I'm still giving him credit though: the moment when he looks into her eyes and is able to tell the difference, though, is still him being able to tell. And Shallan does certainly treat the other versions as costumes, made up of untrue parts. Though she may put aspects of herself into the personas, the entire reason she has a breakdown and hits bottom in Kholinar is because the personas are in part fake, and not her. I understand you have your wish to see this be the breaking point for their relationship, but everything we're shown about them is that Adolin has the right idea.

And since he does know about the personas and is able to tell the difference between who's in charge at a given moment, I am not able to agree that this would be something Adolin would be upset at Shallan for. He already knows everything, we've already seen him be compassionate, we've seen Shallan tell him things that she's told nobody else. Nothing points to her personas being the point where Adolin will freak out.

EDIT:

34 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Can't say I agree with your take on marriage, though.  Religious and philosophical views aside, there is a legal difference between being married and not.  Once you sign that paper, your spouse owns half your stuff.  You can't just walk away from each other anymore.  The idea that marriage shouldn't be different from any other part of a relationship just logically doesn't make sense.  If it wasn't different, why would people get married?  There would be no need.  Or, why wouldn't they get married after their first date?  Marriage is different from other relationships.

Just to throw into this, I agree with Aminar - marriage doesn't change how they relate to each other. They were making the point that you don't stop working on the relationship when you get married. In the most practical sense, if you stop trying the second the wedding happens, it's going to be a bad relationship. Marriage certainly changes things legally, but in terms of, "hey, do we still have to work on our relationship or have we 'made it'?", the wedding doesn't change the people involved in the marriage.

And to be fair, plenty of people don't get married. Marriage is actually extremely rare, in say, Quebec. Lifelong partners just don't do it. It's cultural.

 

[agrabes]

28 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

For sure, that makes sense. I'm still giving him credit though: the moment when he looks into her eyes and is able to tell the difference, though, is still him being able to tell. And Shallan does certainly treat the other versions as costumes, made up of untrue parts. Though she may put aspects of herself into the personas, the entire reason she has a breakdown and hits bottom in Kholinar is because the personas are in part fake, and not her. I understand you have your wish to see this be the breaking point for their relationship, but everything we're shown about them is that Adolin has the right idea.

And since he does know about the personas and is able to tell the difference between who's in charge at a given moment, I am not able to agree that this would be something Adolin would be upset at Shallan for. He already knows everything, we've already seen him be compassionate, we've seen Shallan tell him things that she's told nobody else. Nothing points to her personas being the point where Adolin will freak out.

EDIT:

Just to throw into this, I agree with Aminar - marriage doesn't change how they relate to each other. They were making the point that you don't stop working on the relationship when you get married. In the most practical sense, if you stop trying the second the wedding happens, it's going to be a bad relationship. Marriage certainly changes things legally, but in terms of, "hey, do we still have to work on our relationship or have we 'made it'?", the wedding doesn't change the people involved in the marriage.

And to be fair, plenty of people don't get married. Marriage is actually extremely rare, in say, Quebec. Lifelong partners just don't do it. It's cultural.

 

Yeah definitely fair points about Adolin's perception.  I think it's just something we'll have to see in the next book.  And I'm maybe not putting things the best way about what I want to see between Shallan and Adolin.  What I want is to see this be a point of serious conflict in their relationship, but not the end of it.  I want to see them almost break it off, but then choose to stay together.  This gives Sanderson a chance to dive into what makes their relationship really work and its strengths.  I honestly feel like with the exceptions of one or two short scenes in OB, most of Shallan and Adolin's interactions have been very shallow and surface level.  To me, that has made their relationship and theoretical happiness together feel a bit unearned.  If he combines the plot of marital strife (and its eventual resolution) with Shallan making progress on her identity issues, it's killing two birds with one stone.

 

In terms of marriage, I agree with what you're saying.  I didn't get that from Animar's post, but if that was the intent then I agree.  Marriage isn't the end and you can't rest on your laurels at that point.  Like you said, after you get married you have to keep working on your relationship or it will fall apart.  It's totally valid for people to choose not to marry, that is a personal choice with a lot of cultural influence like you said.  I just think that if you do choose to marry, you need to treat it much differently than the relationship that came before.  A marriage is not just a single day where you celebrate prior commitment.  It's a day when the type of commitment you've made changes.  And you have to make certain plans and agreements with your partner prior to getting married if you want it to work.  You have to agree on certain major questions like "Will we have kids?"  These kinds of shared plans and goals are fundamental building blocks to a marriage.  It doesn't mean that you can't later change your mind about them, but changing the foundation of your marriage by nature must seriously threaten its existence.  To me, by contrast if you are in a long term non-marriage relationship instead, there is never a defined time when you have to sit down and make plans and decisions like this about your future together.  You decide things over time gradually and if you ever drift too far apart, then you can walk away from the relationship.  And that kind of relationship works for some people and that's totally cool.  But it's not the same thing as a marriage.

[Greywatch]

34 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I just think that if you do choose to marry, you need to treat it much differently than the relationship that came before.

I still do just disagree with this, it's just my strong feelings that marriage shouldn't be treated like a different beast. Marriage is an outward commitment to reflect the inward reality of the relationship, but it shouldn't change the relationship. If my partner started treating me differently after the wedding, that would be an extremely unpleasant shock. When in a serious relationship, people deserve the same respect and love and commitment before marriage as they do when they say their vows in public. If my partner said that they took the relationship more seriously after the vows, I'd be... offended.

[Aminar]

45 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I still do just disagree with this, it's just my strong feelings that marriage shouldn't be treated like a different beast. Marriage is an outward commitment to reflect the inward reality of the relationship, but it shouldn't change the relationship. If my partner started treating me differently after the wedding, that would be an extremely unpleasant shock. When in a serious relationship, people deserve the same respect and love and commitment before marriage as they do when they say their vows in public. If my partner said that they took the relationship more seriously after the vows, I'd be... offended.

100% Support before. Support after. Love before. Love After. Faithfulness before. Faithfulness after. The only things that changed when I got married was the weight on my finger, my last name(not hers), and how I did the taxes. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Aminar

[agrabes]

9 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I still do just disagree with this, it's just my strong feelings that marriage shouldn't be treated like a different beast. Marriage is an outward commitment to reflect the inward reality of the relationship, but it shouldn't change the relationship. If my partner started treating me differently after the wedding, that would be an extremely unpleasant shock. When in a serious relationship, people deserve the same respect and love and commitment before marriage as they do when they say their vows in public. If my partner said that they took the relationship more seriously after the vows, I'd be... offended.

I don't know the best way to put this and I've tried to think about it for a while, so rather than waste more time turning it over in my mind, I'll just say a few words and let it be done.

I think of it this way:

In a relationship headed toward marriage, the couple gradually learns about each other and gradually increases their level of commitment toward each other.  During the relationship, it's understood that the type of reason that they could split up becomes gradually more and more restrictive.  If the first date goes bad, there's a good chance the relationship is ended right then and there.  Eventually, the couple enters a time when they are seriously considering getting married.  They start talking about their life plans and goals, they start making sure they are compatible for the long haul.  At this point, it's only a major disagreement that would cause them to split up.  Then, they make plans to be together for the rest of their lives and choose to get engaged.  It's still explicitly part of the deal that they can break it off, but there are even fewer reasons.  Then, they get married.  They've launched themselves into the next phase of their life.  Sure, they were preparing things for this moment ever since they started seriously thinking about it.  So there's not a moment when it all radically changes.  But the day of the marriage is when they lock it in, they can't back out anymore.  They're committed.  It's not just an outward sign, it's a final seal and promise that they will fulfill and carry out all their plans and dreams together.  From one day to the next, very little changes, but at a certain point you've crossed a line and you can't go back.

In a relationship not headed toward marriage, the couple also gradually learns about each other and gradually increases their level of commitment toward each other.  They may or may not make plans about their lives together.  They may or may not make commitments to each other of different types.  And eventually, their commitment to each other is very strong.  But there is never a day when they say to each other "This is final.  We can't come back from this."  And so at any time, however hard it may be, you can back out.  You can end the relationship.  You've never promised otherwise.

 

This difference is what defines marriage to me.  It's the point of no return.  It's the point that you and your partner agree that you're not going to turn back.  In my own marriage, this steadfast commitment has seen us through the tough times.  We've had bad months, months where the love and faithfulness and support were not there.  Months where we weren't sure we wanted to be married anymore.  Months where we thought there might not be a path back to the kind of relationship we wanted to have.  Months where if those same things had happened before the marriage, we would have called it off.  But we stuck it out because we made vows, we made commitments that we would be stand by each other even in the worst times.  And we've come through those rough times and made it to the other side.  In my opinion, a relationship that is not built on the idea that marital vows are deeply meaningful cannot last through truly tough times.  And many people would argue that might be for the better, that marriages should end more easily and spare people the pain of a struggling marriage.  I think that's a totally valid argument and may even be right, but it's not how I choose to live my life.