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[OB] Adolin and Shallan will not last

182 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Llayne said:

I agree that you won't develop unless you get out of your comfort zone and face challenge or your fears, but I think what Shallan is looking for right now is to heal and recover. To figure out who and what she is. I think she kept rushing toward danger as a means to distract herself. (though I may be mis-remembering that dialogue between her and Jasnah near the end)

Either way, to heal and self reflect I imagine she would want a safe place, and could be one of the reasons she chose Adolin. Whether that's what she wants and/or needs long term will likely be covered in the next few books, which is why I don't think we'll be done with the triangle any time soon.

First of all, I absolutely respect your opinion on the matter, but I think we have to establish, that what Shallan suffers from is a mental disorder, which is enabled or exacerbated by her magic.

The thing with mental disorders... They don't solve themselves. They also don't get solved by a magic pill, but rather through a long and ardous process called therapy, which demands a lot from the patient and exacts a lot of strain on them. While stationary therapy is coupled with staying at an institution to get the patient out of the confines of everyday life (basically a safe space - a place without fear), this alone doesn't solve the problem.

I think, that this is also shown in the book by the simple fact, that what helps Shallan recover in one of the worst moments in the entire series - when Grund dies in Kholinar - is not "this place without fear", but rather talking, confronting. With Wit. That was one of these rare moments, where she dropped all pretenses and was just her, which is also such a different person from the Shallan she's usually showing the world. Including Adolin. But that is only tangential.

My point is, that a place without fear is a vital part of getting better, but it is not the sole part of what actually brings health and recovery. In fact, I believe, that that alone is actually harmful, because it gives ample opportunity to avoid, lulling her into a false sense of security. And given her past inclinations towards avoidance, I fear, that she is doing exactly that again.

Edited by SLNC
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A fair enough point, but I'm not talking about what she needs in the large scale or long term, I'm trying to identify what she wanted in that point in time when she made the decision.

Having just gone from point of stress to point of stress, I doubt what she wanted was more stress. I think she want a break. A chance to collect herself in safety.

Yes, ultimately she'll need to face her issues, but having a place to fall back to is important as well.

As I think was mentioned previously in this thread, I also believe that Adolin's acceptance of her personalities might end up being a barrier to getting better. Sure, he refuses to 'be intimate' (?) with Veil, but if his attitude helps her normalize the situation she might not have the drive to do the work and 'get healthy.'

I'm curious to see how their relationship develops in the next book... there are so many variables we dont know.

 

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10 minutes ago, Llayne said:

A fair enough point, but I'm not talking about what she needs in the large scale or long term, I'm trying to identify what she wanted in that point in time when she made the decision.

Having just gone from point of stress to point of stress, I doubt what she wanted was more stress. I think she want a break. A chance to collect herself in safety.

Yes, ultimately she'll need to face her issues, but having a place to fall back to is important as well.

Fair enough, I'm just pleading for caution, because to be frank I don't trust Shallan with such a "tool".

14 minutes ago, Llayne said:

As I think was mentioned previously in this thread, I also believe that Adolin's acceptance of her personalities might end up being a barrier to getting better. Sure, he refuses to 'be intimate' (?) with Veil, but if his attitude helps her normalize the situation she might not have the drive to do the work and 'get healthy.'

This is also something I thought about in the past. Her getting too complacent with the situation.

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9 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Sedside no, I'm not trying to ignore it, but weak and strong in this regard is purely opinion and I have no desire to a say you aren't entitled to have your opinion no matter how much I disagree with it.

So, I provide you with 7 quotes and my analysis of them, with logical reasonings and so on, and you just say "I disagree with you" and that's it? Well, I agree with @Alderant, this is indeed very frustrating. Good luck with your theories, the book will arbitrate us.

8 hours ago, Alderant said:

Where I disagree with is this being a sign of Adolin's love for Shallan is the language that he uses. The language he uses in the scene in question treats her like property, rather than a profession of desire for her happiness.

I totally agree with this. I would also like to add, that in my opinion, the language he uses in this whole dialogue does not seem to me as words, said by a genuinely infatuated man, who was about to make a hard decision and let go of his beloved woman to make her happy. And then, when she refuses to go, he doesn't seem happy and relieved. He continues his weak objections, like "that's worrisome", "world is full of Heralds" and so on, like he still tries to "get rid of this girl", he is just not sure and lets her convince him. And in the end he generously and somewhat lazily allows her to kiss him again. Is it how Sanderson thinks infatuated men behave?

6 hours ago, Llayne said:

visceral passion she (or Veil, but that's an entirely different topic) seemed to feel about Kaladin.

Thank you for reading my post and trying to provide arguments in turn of mine, I really appreciate that. Though, I can't agree with this statement. I really don't understand, why people keep saying, that what she feels to Kaladin is "visceral passion" and "sexual attraction", whereas it is something different to Adolin. Adolin is the guy she admires for his appearance - hair, smile, voice, arms and so on. She repeatedly says in the text, that she wants to kiss him (application for tongue), defitely wants to mate with him, rip his shirt off and so on. Whereas in Kaladin she admires his personality - determination, resolve, contained passion, leashed anger and so on. There are, I guess, only two places in the text, when she notices something about his appearance - "there was something about his curly hair" (or something like that, can't provide a quote now, it was on Radiant council in OB, prior to the sketch), and "storms, he looked good with beard", after which she immediately thinks, that this beard strikes his overall image of contained passion (like a wild spren of passion, trapped within oaths and codes). To me, those are descriptions of a very deep personal love. The ability to contain passion is not about sex, it's about having the fire inside you, but controlling it with the power of your will, which is extremely magnetic trait in people. It is not about "I want to have sex with this guy". This is "I admire this guy's personal traits".

6 hours ago, Llayne said:

I agree that you won't develop unless you get out of your comfort zone and face challenge or your fears, but I think what Shallan is looking for right now is to heal and recover. To figure out who and what she is. I think she kept rushing toward danger as a means to distract herself. (though I may be mis-remembering that dialogue between her and Jasnah near the end)

Either way, to heal and self reflect I imagine she would want a safe place, and could be one of the reasons she chose Adolin. Whether that's what she wants and/or needs long term will likely be covered in the next few books, which is why I don't think we'll be done with the triangle any time soon.

To understand who she is she first of all needs to confront it, but she doesn't confront, she runs from it. She says "they were not her, she was occasionally them" about Veil and Radiant. She pretty much already decided, that she is not Veil and Radiant. Also, if you need a safe place to recover and reflect, why marry? Marriage is something that is considered irreversible. In case she only needed a temporary shelter to recover, she could have just continued the courtship, use Adolin as a comfort provider, become whole and then make a decision, after also storming talking to Kaladin once. But she doesn't even talk to him. She runs. As well as from Jasnah and painful memories.

To learn something you must do it. To learn who she is she must explore herself, and she wants to cement who she thinks she is, thats why she is desperate to cling to anything, that can keep her in maskShallan.

Edited by Sedside
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18 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Though, I can't agree with this statement. I really don't understand, why people keep saying, that what she feels to Kaladin is "visceral passion" and "sexual attraction", whereas it is something different to Adolin.

Interesting comment. I suppose it's the characterization of her 'leering' at Kaladin that colors most of my opinion. Also her comment at the end that "Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin." I just finished OB (again) recently, so both of those are fairly fresh in my mind.

You're right though, there are plenty of scenes where she's thinking about how good Adolin looks. Maybe it's because we're in her POV and she's verbalizing/thinking her thoughts about Adolin that makes me think of them as more abstract and less passionate?

I'd have to do some research to form a better opinion.

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7 minutes ago, Llayne said:

I suppose it's the characterization of her 'leering' at Kaladin that colors most of my opinion. Also her comment at the end that "Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin."

Just to play Devil's advocate: this comment was directed at Adolin, who she obviously wouldn't tell anything about possible profound feelings about Kaladin.

Then there also is the tangible possibility, that she pushed the unwanted feelings about Kaladin to the Veil persona, because at some point they miraculously disappear and then emerge as part of Veil, while before in WoR they were definitely felt by Shallan.

Edited by SLNC
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12 minutes ago, Llayne said:

I suppose it's the characterization of her 'leering' at Kaladin that colors most of my opinion.

Yeah, it was Adolin's wording, from his PoV. Maybe it's the part of his vocabulary, as he also tells Kaladin in WoR to "stop leering at her backside" on the training grounds. I'm not sure, that was what Kaladin was really doing :)

9 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Then there also is the tangible possibility, that she pushed the unwanted feelings about Kaladin to the Veil persona, because at some point they miraculously disappear and then emerge as part of Veil, while before on WoR they were definitely felt by Shallan.

Indeed. The other thing, that also miraculously disappeared at almost the same time (somewhat after Radiant council and being chastised by Jasnah for sketching Kaladin) is the whole Helaran issue. She just says "don't think about it" and that's all, gone. I hope it still has to be addressed in the future, as otherwise it is also something that seems absolutely unnecessary.

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