theory [OB] Adolin and Shallan will not last

[Sedside]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

No, he decides that Kaladin can "have" her, which is a troublesome statement in itself and shows how he sees their relationship. Also correlates to how he tells her, that he'll never let anything happen to her again after the chasms. Back then, he got a telling off for it. Now, Shallan was too desperate for that.

Yeah, I totally agree with you here, this wording is awful. He thinks he can decide for both Kaladin and Shallan, that he wants to "have" her, and she wants him to "have" her. Adolin kind of commands both of them, not asking their opinion. I didn't want to focus on this side of their dialogue, just on his inability to hold to his decision.

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

It's just... I don't see love on Adolin's side. I see "romantic" platitudes, which are so textbook they could have been out of a self-help brochure. I don't see him devastated or angry, that the woman he is supposed to love, is leering at Kaladin, but instead goes "eh too bad, I can't compete with that". Adolin is capable of emotion and anger, as seen by how he murdered Sadeas, so why doesn't he get angry when his fiancée practically eye-storms Kaladin? Because he doesn't love her. He wants to marry her not out of love, but for his own prestige, to not disappoint his family, to save face, to not be "the guy, that can't keep a wife". Which is also why he even started all those courtships in the first place: His desire always was "lounging, dueling and maybe court a girl or two", but he never wanted long-term.

Neither do I. I never see him in OB thinking she is beautiful or whatever. He thinks about her outfits and that's all. And he marries her only because she insists on it, and he is too weak to say "no". And because he wants "to let someone to just take care of it".

[Mage of Lirigon]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

No, he decides that Kaladin can "have" her, which is a troublesome statement in itself and shows how he sees their relationship. Also correlates to how he tells her, that he'll never let anything happen to her again after the chasms. Back then, he got a telling off for it. Now, Shallan was too desperate for that.

He wants to marry her not out of love, but for his own prestige, to not disappoint his family, to save face, to not be "the guy, that can't keep a wife". Which is also why he even started all those courtships in the first place: His desire always was "lounging, dueling and maybe court a girl or two", but he never wanted long-term.

I agree, the wording wasn't the best. He was trying to be mature, respect her feelings and step aside but he really could have put it better. 

 

Quote

It's just... I don't see love on Adolin's side. I see "romantic" platitudes, which are so textbook they could have been out of a self-help brochure. I don't see him devastated or angry, that the woman he is supposed to love, is leering at Kaladin, but instead goes "eh too bad, I can't compete with that".

So  demonstrating his love means that he should get upset at her about what she's feeling? 

 

Quote

Adolin is capable of emotion and anger, as seen by how he murdered Sadeas, so why doesn't he get angry when his fiancée practically eye-storms Kaladin? Because he doesn't love her.

It's more like he doesn't love himself. Adolin has always believed himself to be inferior to his father and the fact that  Shallan is a Radiant caused him  to transfer those feelings to her and Kaladin, in a way. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

So  demonstrating his love means that he should get upset at her about what she's feeling? 

Yes, that is the reaction I would expect. Any feeling would be fine. It's almost like he doesn't care.

[Calderis]

You can want someone to happy enough that you put those feelings ahead of your own. Saying Adolin doesn't love Shallan because he doesn't react like you would expect means... Well, if it were as simple as that then we'd all be in agreement here because we'd all react the same way, wouldn't we? 

If his feelings for Shallan were selfish then I'd expect anger. Not what comes across as a disappointed and resigned speech that would have come earlier if he didn't have to work himself up to it. 

He should have talked to her before, and not made assumptions on her feelings, but in his defense here... The "Hey... I think you might want to be with this other person more than me" conversation is a difficult one to hstart, and their lives haven't exactly been quiet and easy to find downtime to talk. 

And he should have stood his ground in his decision? Really? Why? Because here's how I see that bit.

Adolin has, over the course of OB, noticed Shallan's behavior towards Kaladin, but never broaches it earlier because he's insecure to start with. It builds up and he finally spits it out in the stupidest way possible which causes shallan to both go off on him about his word choice, and tell him that he's wrong. 

So there's two options, either he doesn't believe her and walks away, or he does believe and stays. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

The "Hey... I think you might want to be with this other person more than me" conversation is a difficult one to hstart, and their lives haven't exactly been quiet and easy to find downtime to talk. 

It is not. "Hey, I've seen you look at Kaladin lately, and I want to talk about that." It really is not so hard. If they can't openly talk about something like that without one of them trying to immediately break off the relationship, then I can't wait for the first marriage quarrel to come up.

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Adolin has, over the course of OB, noticed Shallan's behavior towards Kaladin, but never broaches it earlier because he's insecure to start with. It builds up and he finally spits it out in the stupidest way possible which causes shallan to both go off on him about his word choice, and tell him that he's wrong. 

Of course, if we conveniently forget the fact, that he repeatedly mentions what he actually wants out of his life.

Look, he doesn't want to be married, he tells the reader himself, but he cares about his family. His family wants him married, so he tries some token courtships, which all don't come to fruition, due to Adolin constantly not taking them seriously - in short, he doesn't care, because he doesn't want. Family gets fed up and Jasnah proposes the arranged marriage with Shallan, Navani, of course, loves the idea. Dalinar agrees, too. Adolin gets told and he's like: "rust. I took too long to find a wife and my family is fed up, but maybe my family choosing someone might work. But this time I really need to make this work." Shallan turns out to be a Radiant and he starts to get worried about the arrangement, because of shifting importances. That is the thing though, he's worried about the arrangement, he isn't scared, that Shallan might leave him, but that the arrangement might fall apart and he'll disappoint his family.

And this is what I prevalently see in his disappointment, when Shallan leers at Kaladin. He's not disappointed, that he won't marry Shallan, because he is in love with her (something of which I've never read an admission of - not even internally. Isn't that a very important ommision from Sanderson's part? I mean we can keep on disagreeing on how we interpret Adolin, but the text is there... Or rather it isn't.), he's disappointed because he'll disappoint his family, because he can't compete against "the Radiant". He's disappointed, because he'll keep being the guy, that can't keep a girl, because that is what society expects from him, even if his desires don't match with it and we do know, that Adolin very much cares about public perception of his person.

Of course he is surprised, when Shallan tells him what she thinks at the end of OB; because in his mind there is no possibility, that someone might prefer someone "normal" to a Radiant in a marriage. Why? Well, firstly, he highly glorifies Radiants himself and is highly jealous of them, but secondly, he doesn't see marriage as a bond of love. No, it is something nobles do to forge alliances and bind families together, to conceive heirs. To further and consolidate power. So, why - in a world where Radiants are now more powerful than most kings - would she not marry the Radiant? Shallan tells him, that she values him in different ways though and he is surprised, because he never saw it that way. And never saw her that way either.

It is not insecurity, it is just Adolin not getting what Shallan meant there, because he never felt the same and doesn't toward Shallan. But then again, I suppose this will always be a point of contention.

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, SLNC said:

It is not. "Hey, I've seen you look at Kaladin lately, and I want to talk about that." It really is not so hard. If they can't openly talk about something like that without one of them trying to immediately break off the relationship, then I can't wait for the first marriage quarrel to come up.

Facing your own insecurities is not simple. If it were, life would be a lot simpler and less emotionally turbulent in general. 

12 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Look, he doesn't want to be married, he tells the reader himself, but he cares about his family

I didn't think I wanted to be married and couldn't imagine it prior to meeting my wife. Life happens and what you want changes. Where, after meeting Shallan, does he ever say that he does not want to be married? Because he doesn't seem to be going along with it for his families sake. Especially not at first, when it would just have been a marriage to a minor veden noble who would gain his family nothing.

As to the rest of your post... I don't see 1) any of the same motivations for Adolin that you do. 2) how even in your own description that isn't insecurity, even if it is for different reasons. 

Edited February 17, 2019 by Calderis

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Where, after meeting Shallan, does he ever say that he does not want to be married?

Does it matter? He even tells Kaladin once, that "he wants to keep her", but does it really matter, because I again point to how important public perception is for him. His internal thoughts don't align. He can say a lot, but does he mean it? Does he really mean it, when he goes ahead and is about to break off the relationship at the first inconvenience?

Edited February 17, 2019 by SLNC

[Calderis]

We see him far too differently. It's not "the first inconvenience" in my mind. That implies that he's been waiting for some excuse to get out of the relationship, which seems very much not to be the case in my mind.

His own actions with the Kingship belie the public perception idea... He'll be judged harshly by Alethi society for not seizing power when he had the chance, and that never once crossed his mind. 

His motivation is that he thought it's what she wanted. 

I'll never understand how we can read the exact same words and see things in such a diametrically opposed way. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

His own actions with the Kingship belie the public perception idea... He'll be judged harshly by Alethi society for not seizing power when he had the chance, and that never once crossed his mind. 

Only if what happened in there gets public, which I highly doubt, because that would mean, that everyone also learns of the fact, that he murdered Sadeas.

It was in private, which is the opposite of public.

Edited February 17, 2019 by SLNC

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Only if what happened in there gets public, which I highly doubt, because that would mean, that everyone also learns of the fact, that he murdered Sadeas.

What? The line of succession is known. Everyone in Alethkar will know that he either stepped aside, or was denied the kingship the moment Jasnah became Queen. 

The circumstances of how don't matter. He will be judged publicly. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The circumstances of how don't matter. He will be judged publicly. 

Depends on what cover up story will be made public, actually. Or do you seriously believe, that the leadership will say nothing about it?

Edited February 17, 2019 by Chaos
Removing provocation

[insert_anagram_here]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

I'll never understand how we can read the exact same words and see things in such a diametrically opposed way. 

I have wondered about the same thing for months and I think I have a theory…

Adolin wasn’t supposed to be this big of a character, but a POV to reveal others. We weren’t exposed to his inner thoughts, fears or desires or values, he didn’t have an introductory chapter. So how we interpret him, where the huge difference derives from, depends heavily on how we interpret his first scenes.

And the first time we see Adolin outside his family’s presence, which seems the only important thing to him, was the prostitute scene. (again in order for Kaladin to have a first glimpse of the Kholin Code but that’s beside the point)

The point of that scene was ‘lighteyes might not be as bad as Kaladin thinks’ but for a lot of other people it was also ‘Adolin seems like a nice dude’. But because we weren’t’ exposed to Adolin’s inner thoughts during that exchange to some people it had one extra meaning of ‘the truth is somewhere in between’. And from there on all interactions about Adolin had that added suspicion in them, that only grew the more scenes we got of him without exposing his inner thoughts.

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

Well, if it were as simple as that then we'd all be in agreement here because we'd all react the same way, wouldn't we? 

In a way, we actually do react the same. We interpret a scaffolding of a character trying to ‘fill in’ the missing parts with our assumptions. Because that’s what Adolin is, just a scaffolding to insert whatever you want in there. For you, it’s an insecure man that loves a woman. For me, it’s an overindulgent one that goes with the flow. Can you see what’s being revealed here? Not Adolin ofc, but our own assumptions of what he is, maybe even parts of our own self.

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

You can want someone to happy enough that you put those feelings ahead of your own.

Wanting someone to just be happy denotes affection yes, not attraction.

We want our friends and our siblings to be happy but we don’t want the people we marry to ‘just be happy’. We want, we demand, to be that happiness. That’s why we marry them, to make them ‘ours’ and us 'theirs', to restrict them into being ‘ours’ being responsible for their happiness. And we give up ourselves for them too. There is a meaning of 'selfishness' as you describe it there, but also a meaning of giving up our selves as well.

Adolin never showed he is in love with Shallan. He never once demanded her love or attention. We never got an indication that he was giving something up for her either.

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

Adolin has, over the course of OB, noticed Shallan's behavior towards Kaladin, but never broaches it earlier because he's insecure to start with.

I don’t see Adolin as insecure. At all. On the contrary, he seems very confident, cheeky even. She tells Shallan not to feel sorry for him but that’s not about ‘feeling insecure about who he is’, that’s for ‘not hurting his feelings for breaking the betrothal’ (how she would interpret him in that conversation, but not how he interprets himself)

But I’ll agree that he did notice Shallan’s behavior ‘over the course of OB’

He didn’t pick another moment to break off the betrothal, he wasn’t even mad when he noticed Shallan ‘almost leering’ at Kaladin on Honor’s Path. He didn’t confront her then and there. He didn’t try to break the betrothal any sooner.

But the point isn’t what he didn’t do, the point is what he did when he did it. He tried to break that betrothal right after he saw her ‘bleeding from Shallan to Veil to Radiant and back’. Not before the battle in Shadesmar, not later after the Battle of TC when they were all safely home, but right after he saw her losing control of those ‘other people’ and seeing who she is. (even Shallan has that exact fear, it’s in there, in-book) He just tried to run away from her madness, the poor man. And his reluctance to show affection towards her (it’s always she that grabs him always) shows reluctance to be committed to her.

Remember they haven’t been together that long, to have reached that point of complacency in their relationship that they ‘just want each other to be happy’. Breaking it off so easily, so early, is only possible for people who aren’t much involved in the first place.

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Where, after meeting Shallan, does he ever say that he does not want to be married?

Where does he ever say that he wants to marry her? Or that loves her? Don’t you think that would be important for a writer to include if he wants to convince us of it?

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

What? The line of succession is known.

Yes, people know that Dalinar was supposed to take the throne, not Adolin.

 

[Sedside]

I've already said in this thread, that I consider arranged marriage as a "destination before journey". Just because it's arranged. I've also come to a conclusion, that this particular marriage is a "weakness before strength" as well. And yes, I treat the First Ideal of Knights Radiant very seriously, and I think that it is one of the main moral messages of the series. So, I'll explain my point.

After a 5 minutes of lazy digging through the text of OB I've found the following quotes:

Quote

Her father stepped from the Light. And her mother.

The illusions immediately started to fail, melting back to Light. Then, someone seized her by the left hand.

Shallan gasped. Forming from mist was … was Veil? With long straight black hair, white clothing, brown eyes. Wiser than Shallan—and more focused. Capable of working on small pieces when Shallan grew overwhelmed by the large scale of her work. 

Another hand took Shallan’s on the right. Radiant, in glowing garnet Shardplate, tall, with braided hair. Reserved and cautious. She nodded to Shallan with a steady, determined look.

Others boiled at Shallan’s feet, trying to crawl from the Stormlight, their glowing hands grabbing at her legs.

“… No,” Shallan whispered.

This was enough. She had created Veil and Radiant to be strong when she was weak. She squeezed their hands tight, then hissed out slowly. The other versions of Shallan retreated into the Stormlight.

Quote

“I wasn’t feeling anything other than tired,” Shallan said.

Quote

“I’m tired,” Shallan whispered. “You don’t have to worry. After I rest, I’ll recover and settle down to being just one. I actually … actually don’t think I’m quite as lost as I was before.”

Quote

“Tired,” Shallan said, her eyes drowsy.
“Satisfied,” Radiant said, proud.
“Worried,” Veil said, eyeing the Fused.

Quote

Radiant worried they’d leave the city undefended in their reverie. And what had become of the enemy that had been fighting in the streets? The defenders had to make certain this wasn’t an elaborate feint.

Veil worried about looting. A city in chaos often proved how feral it could become. Veil wanted to be out on the streets, looking for people likely to be robbed, and making sure they were cared for.

Shallan wanted to sleep. She felt … weaker … more tired than the other two.

I'm almost sure I could have found more, if I spent more time. Then, just a little detail in addition to Hoid and other arguments, that Shallan, Veil, and Radiant are part of the whole:

Quote

Storms. It was beautiful. She gripped Veil’s and Radiant’s hands tighter. They knelt beside her, heads bowed within her painted tapestry of violence, her—

“Hey,” a girl’s voice said. “Could you, uh, stop hugging yourself for a minute? I need some help.”

But why did she choose Adolin in the first place? To be maskShallan, and not Veil/Radiant. So she has deliberately chosen the weakest persona to stick to. And also this quote, we have already discussed a few posts ago:

Quote

So warm. Comfortable. And strikingly unfamiliar. What was this peace? This place without fear?

A place without fear is a place where you don't develop. You don't go out of your comfort zone. She doesn't want to face her fears, so she chooses weakness. When she sees Kaladin, she stands on two feet, he thinks she is stronger than him. And she also knows, that she can't be weak with Kaladin, I don't think that guy would be interested in a weak girl. He loves her for her strength. So there, weakness before strength.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Sedside

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Because that’s what Adolin is, just a scaffolding to insert whatever you want in there. For you, it’s an insecure man that loves a woman. For me, it’s an overindulgent one that goes with the flow. Can you see what’s being revealed here? Not Adolin ofc, but our own assumptions of what he is,

I think much of the story has to be disregarded in order to see him as absolutely negatively as people attempt to portray him. And honestly, if it were just Adolin that was the issue I'd possibly find this believable. But it extends well beyond him. 

For just one example... 

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

We want, we demand, to be that happiness. That’s why we marry them, to make them ‘ours’ and us 'theirs', to restrict them into being ‘ours’ being responsible for their happiness. And we give up ourselves for them too. There is a meaning of 'selfishness' as you describe it there, but also a meaning of giving up our selves as well.

I very much disagree with you on the reasons for, and most likely the concept of, marriage. Because, yes, that reasoning is selfish. If you need a contract and law to ensure that the other person is bound to you and only you... 

There should be no reason. To demand anything of a marriage partner. Trust should make that unnecessary. 

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

And his reluctance to show affection towards her (it’s always she that grabs him always) shows reluctance to be committed to her.

People show affection in a variety of different ways. This is opinion. 

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Where does he ever say that he wants to marry her? Or that loves her? Don’t you think that would be important for a writer to include if he wants to convince us of it?

Considering everything that I've said over the course of these conversations, no I really don't think it's necessary. 

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Remember they haven’t been together that long, to have reached that point of complacency in their relationship that they ‘just want each other to be happy’. Breaking it off so easily, so early, is only possible for people who aren’t much involved in the first place.

The timing... It being easy... Complacency... I disagree on all counts. 

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Yes, people know that Dalinar was supposed to take the throne, not Adolin.

Dalinar was in line until he disavowed the Alethi throne for Urithiru. If that wasn't public knowledge before so, it came out when the documents that broke the coalition were shared. 

Adolin was next. Jasnah being queen means that Adolin either stepped aside or was denied. Regardless of the story given, people will judge Adolin for it, because in either case he'll have "allowed it" to happen. 

@Sedside I take the First Oath very seriously, which is why the insistence by many that Teft's presented interpretation is the "correct" one bothers me so much.

I'm sorry that you don't like that Brandon would set up reader expectations just to undermine him... But it's something he's done in all of his books. If there's a rule tatis introduced in the first book of a series, and it hasn't shown to be misunderstood by the end, that would be the exception, not the rule. 

He has told us flat out that the Machiavellian philosophy of "the ends justify the means" is acceptable with the first oath. We have it confirmed that both the Skybreakers and Elsecallers would accept them, and I doubt they are alone.

If you subscribe to the presented version if it, and agree with that, that's fine. It's a good philosophy. But that is not all the oath is limited to, and basing your ideas for what Brandon is writing unrelated parts of the story on it... I doubt that that's sound. 

————————————————

I've noticed a bit of a schism on two parts of the argument recently, and I kind of feel the need to point it out. 

Adolin is self-serving and lazy and wants nothing more than to live up to his family's expectations, which is why he is apparently entering into a marriage that he doesn't actually want.

But he's also self-indulgent and selfish enough that he's avoiding being king... Disappointing his family completely, and setting himself up for a tumultuous future. 

Goes with the flow even in to things that he doesn't want to do, or is only willing to do what he wants? Which is it? 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Goes with the flow even in to things that he doesn't want to do, or is only willing to do what he wants? Which is it? 

Both.

He's torn between his own desires and his desire to please his family. He resigned himself to marriage, but he isn't willing to give up his life to be king.

[Sedside]

19 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm sorry that you don't like that Brandon would set up reader expectations just to undermine him...

I've already said, that this is not what I don't like. I like subverting reader's expectations, but it should be done in believable and meaningful way. What I don't like is putting something meaningless into the story to create expectations to subvert them later. Can you reply to my logic? To the quotes I have provided and explained my opinion on them? Even if we forget all the "First Ideal thing", do you think it is all right for our main protagonist to deliberately choose being weak over being strong? Or maybe you think, that "subverting readers' expectations" in regard of "strength before weakness" is that you have to be weak, and everything will be all right? I don't know, what exactly Sanderson meant by this First Ideal, what about Machiavellian stuff, but what I know, is that in real life being weak is worse, than being strong, and I can't possibly imagine a good literature, which would have stated otherwise.

And, by the way, about subverting readers' expectations. As far as I can see on this forum, the expectations of the majority of readers are:

1. Adolin and Shallan will be happily married.
2. Adolin will revive Maya and be a Radiant.
3. Kaladin and Shallan will never be together.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm...

ETA: I decided to provide an example of "meaningless thing to subvert readers' expectations". Imagine, that some character learns his sword name and summons her in 7 heartbeats. Just hypothetically. We wait for the next book, spending tonz of pages discussing, will he revive his sword or not, and on the next book he forgot his sword name and summons her in 10 heartbeats all book long. Or maybe he tries a couple of times to speak to her or summon her faster, but he doesn't manage to do it, so he says "storm it", forgets it and that's all, no other consequences of this plotline. Are readers' expectations subverted? For sure. Was it good? No, I don't think so.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Sedside

[Calderis]

@Sedside I think the first oath is completely unrelated to this, and that was my point.

As to the forum expectations, they are what they are in regards to Shallan and Adolin, because Brandon has pretty much said the love triangle is over. 

Quote

vanahian

And for a friend of mine and her sanity... The Shalladin thing will be something or is all in her head? Stop her pain please :D.

Brandon Sanderson

Shallan has made her choice. I wouldn't expect that to change.

vanahian

And thanks for the answer in 11. My friend is crying but now she can go ahead with her life

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah...I do feel bad about that. If it's any comfort, tell her I think she'll eventually be very pleased it went this way. It might take a few more books, though.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)

She's made her choice. 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Calderis

[Sedside]

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

She's made her choice. 

Oh, yeah, this WoB. It made me register on this forum. Here is what I think about it. And in case this is 100% what he means and Shallan will really magically forget all her feelings... All the foreshadowing, brilliant dialogues, philosophy, phychology, chasm sequence and so on will be thrown out of the window, well, the book will follow and I won't have any regret.

And you still keep focusing of the First Ideal and not replying to my arguments about choosing to be weak.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Sedside

[Alderant]

42 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I very much disagree with you on the reasons for, and most likely the concept of, marriage. Because, yes, that reasoning is selfish. If you need a contract and law to ensure that the other person is bound to you and only you... 

There should be no reason. To demand anything of a marriage partner. Trust should make that unnecessary. 

You misunderstood anagram's point completely. What she speaks of is the natural give and take of a couple in love. The point to her argument is not that a contract is required to bind the other to you--it is that your entire being shifts, becomes focused on that single individual. You want to be their everything--you want them to come to you first when they need help, to take your advice without going to other people, to be the one that is first and foremost in their mind. At the same time, you devote yourself to them, to their needs, their wants, often sacrificing things you've dreamed of because their happiness, love, and attention becomes so important thing to you. It does become a demand--a relationship is give and take, not give only. Trust isn't the issue--it's that the relationship becomes less about two people and more about the two of you together.

42 minutes ago, Calderis said:

7 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

And his reluctance to show affection towards her (it’s always she that grabs him always) shows reluctance to be committed to her.

People show affection in a variety of different ways. This is opinion.

Yes, people show affection in a variety of different ways. There is also romantic affection and platonic affection. Adolin shows much of the latter, little of the former. I challenge you to find me five examples of explicitly romantic affection that is initiated by Adolin, and not initially forced on him by Shallan.

42 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Considering everything that I've said over the course of these conversations, no I really don't think it's necessary.

This is also opinion. And considering the number of people that feel dissatisfied that are purportedly more "invested" in book relationships than you--as you yourself have said multiple times--perhaps this should be an indication that this actually needed to be in the book. I, for one, would have felt a lot better about Adolin and Shallan if there were obvious signs of romantic interest from Adolin to Shallan, instead of only from Shallan to Adolin. I've said it before, and I'll say it again here--Shallan and Adolin don't act like a couple in love. They are depicted like friends who have suddenly decided to try out dating--awkward, unsure of where or how to step, and acting as they think a couple in love should behave, rather actually being depicted as a couple truly in love. You may agree or disagree--that's fine.

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Sedside I think the first oath is completely unrelated to this, and that was my point.

As to the forum expectations, they are what they are in regards to Shallan and Adolin, because Brandon has pretty much said the live triangle is over. 

She's made her choice. 

Calderis, you can't have it both ways. You have a bad habit of using WoBs to try to shoot down any opinion that doesn't line up with your own, yet there are other, more recent WoBs where Brandon has said repeatedly that it's not necessarily over. Even in the one you quoted just now, Brandon said "Shallan made her choice." Note, the language here was whether or not Shalladin would be a thing. Also note that Brandon said only slightly later in the comments: " If it's any comfort, tell her I think she'll eventually be very pleased it went this way. It might take a few more books, though." Why would he say that? Could it be that Shallan isn't in a good headspace and that had she chosen Kaladin things might have ended in disaster? Could it be that whatever relationship Shallan entered in would be doomed to failure because of existing problems? These are just two alternatives in a plethora of examples that would fall under "subversive" writing.

Further, WoBs are a secondary resource that is mutable by the writer's mental state. They are accurate only so long as the author is still saying the same thing--and Brandon has retracted on "confirming" that the triangle is effectively over, regressing from statements such as "Shallan made her choice" to "RAFO". This indicates to me that Brandon's mind isn't as made up as it first appeared following Oathbringer's release. Your arguments would be better received if they were backed up from the text, but while you are quick off the cuff with a WoB to support your arguments, when it comes to textual evidence your arguments are often lacking, and when someone else quotes the books themselves you have a bad habit of replying with things such as "Well this is the way I read it," without any other support to your comments. This is extremely frustrating to those who put forth effort to quote the books and formulate their theories, only to have you dismiss it out of hand without any careful consideration.

Part of good discussion, which I'd like to remind everyone here of doing--is taking what someone else says that may be different from your own thoughts and giving it value. Professing that you've "changed opinions before" because of other peoples' arguments is irrelevant--if you're not willing to bend here, then perhaps you need to take a breather and return when you've a more level head. Discussion, like relationships, is give and take. If you've drawn a line in the sand that you absolutely can't cross, that means you are unwilling to give, and only take--so agree to disagree and move on. Clearly they're not going to convince you to change, and you're not going to convince them.

[Calderis]

@Sedside no, I'm not trying to ignore it, but weak and strong in this regard is purely opinion and I have no desire to a say you aren't entitled to have your opinion no matter how much I disagree with it.

@Alderant if u were aware of a more recent wob in which he had reversed course, I wouldn't rely on that one.

As far as why he would say that... Look at what the wob says. She made her choice and he doesn't expect that to change... But he thinks eventually people will be happy it went this way. As in, happy she made the choice that she did. Her and Adolin splitting later wouldn't change the feelings about the choice that was made now. 

People repeatedly quote the books yes, and book trumps WoB, every time... But that doesn't really matter when everything we're speaking of here is completely opinion. There are not rules to be established. There are not physics and and mechanics to be defined. It is subjective interpretation. There is no "proof" of anything here, so there no ability to change opinion with text that we interpret differently. 

I'm as entitled to express my opinions here as anyone else. I'm not being offensive. I'm merely disagreeing. 

If you have a more recent WoB then one I post that contradicts it, post it by all means. If you have something from the book that is not subject to a different interpretation, an undeniable refutation of my opinion, then great my opinion will be altered. 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Chaos

[Jofwu]

8 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Wanting someone to just be happy denotes affection yes, not attraction.

We want our friends and our siblings to be happy but we don’t want the people we marry to ‘just be happy’. We want, we demand, to be that happiness. That’s why we marry them, to make them ‘ours’ and us 'theirs', to restrict them into being ‘ours’ being responsible for their happiness. And we give up ourselves for them too. There is a meaning of 'selfishness' as you describe it there, but also a meaning of giving up our selves as well.

Re: @Alderant's point, I agree that @Calderis's response was missing the point.

But I do very much disagree with this. Anagram, it sounds like you're casually dismissing the entire "love someone enough to let them go" trope. I absolutely disagree that real love is incapable of letting someone go for the sake of their own happiness. If I understand the context of this argument, Calderis was arguing that Adolin "letting go of Shallan" is a sign of love. That doesn't have to be the case. You could read it as if he doesn't love her enough to fight for her. But I don't think you can definitively say it means he doesn't love her [enough] either.

[Alderant]

1 minute ago, Jofwu said:

But I do very much disagree with this. Anagram, it sounds like you're casually dismissing the entire "love someone enough to let them go" trope. I absolutely disagree that real love is incapable of letting someone go for the sake of their own happiness. If I understand the context of this argument, Calderis was arguing that Adolin "letting go of Shallan" is a sign of love. That doesn't have to be the case. You could read it as if he doesn't love her enough to fight for her. But I don't think you can definitively say it means he doesn't love her [enough] either.

Where I disagree with is this being a sign of Adolin's love for Shallan is the language that he uses. The language he uses in the scene in question treats her like property, rather than a profession of desire for her happiness. "I'll let him have you" doesn't imply to me that Adolin is concerned for Shallan's happiness, it implies that he's handing her off to someone he sees as better than himself (and this is supported by general envy he feels throughout the book). Like she were a package he were handing to the "proper" recipient, rather than letting her make her own decision.

That said, I think that the angle of which you're speaking that someone who loves someone else that deeply being willing to let someone go for their sake? Totally plausible. It's a recurring theme in fiction about parenthood, after all. I just don't see that level of devotion from Adolin within the text, which makes me think that Adolin isn't acting from that standpoint.

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

As far as why he would say that... Look at what the wob says. She made her choice and he doesn't expect that to change... But he thinks eventually people will be happy it went this way. As in, happy she made the choice that she did. Her and Adolin splitting later wouldn't change the feelings about the choice that was made now. 

People repeatedly quote the books yes, and book trumps WoB, every time... But that doesn't really matter when everything we're speaking of here is completely opinion. There are not rules to be established. There are not physics and and mechanics to be defined. It is subjective interpretation. There is no "proof" of anything here, so there no ability to change opinion with text that we interpret differently. 

I'm as entitled to express my opinions here as anyone else. I'm not being offensive. I'm merely disagreeing. 

If you have a more recent WoB then one I post that contradicts it, post it by all means. If you have something from the book that is not subject to a different interpretation, an undeniable refutation of my opinion, then great my opinion will be altered. But I'm not going to sit back and watch the majority opinion leave the thread from exhaustion, and turn this into an echo chamber. 

That's my point exactly, Calderis. The WoB is only clear that Shallan made her choice. It says nothing of Shallan and Kaladin never getting together either--one of the possible interpretations being that Shallan and Kaladin get together after she and Adolin split. It also says nothing of Adolin--another one of the many possible interpretations is that Adolin will be the cause of the relationship failing. One of the hopes that follows the choice, then, being that Shallan and Kaladin get together when both are more whole--which would make me happy! I'd rather Shallan get together with Adolin, have things not work out, and then have a Shallan that is more together get together with Kaladin--that's infinitely better than a Shallan who's fragmented and rushes into a marriage out of desperation and then having that fall apart. And he doesn't say eventually "people" will be happy, but rather that someone who was so into the idea of Shallan and Kaladin being together that they were crying about it would be happy it went this way. There's a level of gravitas here that is being completely overlooked.

Further, all theories are subjective until proven accurate. This is a fantasy series, and while Brandon does a good job of having in world explanations for why things happen, ultimately real world physics and mechanics do not hold absolute law. Opinion can still be backed and supported by the text. Subjective views can be given weight with well thought-out analysis. Just because the discussion is character development or relationships does not demean the value of that analysis and argument.

Finally, your last paragraph is absolutely the definition of what I spoke of in terms of give and take within a discussion. You said, and I quote:

Quote

that is not subject to a different interpretation, an undeniable refutation of my opinion

We're debating theory here. It's character theory, but it's just as much valid theory as your beloved realmatics. Until it is explicitly confirmed in text or by Brandon (and by explicitly I mean that there is absolutely no other way to interpret it), all discussion is opinion and speculation. The fact that you demand undeniable refutation in discussion, yet use subjective and debatable WoBs to support your statements is the height of hypocrisy within the discussion setting. And with respect,

28 minutes ago, Calderis said:

But I'm not going to sit back and watch the majority opinion leave the thread from exhaustion, and turn this into an echo chamber.

This is the exact complaint that has been had for over a year now. Anyone who expresses a dissenting opinion from the majority is jumped on or beaten to death with the majority opinion, despite well thought out and considered analysis, despite repeated efforts to make the dissenting ideas heard, because some people are unwilling to let anyone that doesn't share their opinion or pat them on the back have a win. Discussion is give and take. Meaning you have to be willing to accept that some people are allowed to have opposing views, and that sometimes the minority opinion is just as valid as the majority opinion.

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, Jofwu said:

But I do very much disagree with this. Anagram, it sounds like you're casually dismissing the entire "love someone enough to let them go" trope. I absolutely disagree that real love is incapable of letting someone go for the sake of their own happiness.

I'm not dismissing the 'trope' but I don't think that Adolin and Shallan's relationship has reached the point where we can say, irrefutably, that he is doing it 'out of love'. Their relationship isn't mature enough, it hasn't gone through the hardship of a serious relationship, to prove this. On the contrary, the fact that he is saying so easily 'I'll let him have you' (and right after he's seen her other faces) could be interpreted as a last attempt of escape. I'm not saying everyone should interpret it that way, but in the way it was written, a lot of people could and I believe that was intentionally done from Sanderson's part.

[Jofwu]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

I just don't see that level of devotion from Adolin within the text, which makes me think that Adolin isn't acting from that standpoint.

And that's absolutely valid. I'm just being picky about [what I perceived as] the implication that Adolin planning to back off indicates that he merely has "affection." The statement felt more... conclusive? than what @insert_anagram_here obviously intended.

—————

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

This is the exact complaint that has been had for over a year now. Anyone who expresses a dissenting opinion from the majority is jumped on or beaten to death with the majority opinion, despite well thought out and considered analysis, despite repeated efforts to make the dissenting ideas heard, because some people are unwilling to let anyone that doesn't share their opinion or pat them on the back have a win. Discussion is give and take. Meaning you have to be willing to accept that some people are allowed to have opposing views, and that sometimes the minority opinion is just as valid as the majority opinion.

I don't want to derail the discussion being had in this thread, but I feel like this needs to be addressed.

I'm speaking to everyone here, in case that needs to be said.

I'm reading through this thread and seeing lots of different opinions being shared. I don't see anyone being "jumped on or beaten to death" with one opinion or the other. There's obviously two overarching opinions, right? ("will not last" vs. "will last"). There are several people arguing in favor of each. Both opinions are effectively welcome, as far as I can see.

There's a lot of debate paired with those opinions. That doesn't mean the opposing opinions aren't welcome. Just because someone shows up to argue doesn't mean they're trying to suppress an alternate perspective. Just because their argument isn't exhaustive and flawless doesn't mean they're unwilling to consider the points that they skipped over. It kind of feels like each "side" believes the other is trying to push opposing views away. This isn't a fight. There's no winning. I think everyone here understands that we're largely dealing with a mix of theory and opinion, and I think everyone here has given their opinions a lot of thought.

Let's please assume the best in others and be patient when tempers flare. (It's happened all around, I can assure you.) Please report cases where that happens. (and "thank you" to those who do) It's not always easy to keep a level head when discussing something we're passionate about.

[Llayne]

2 hours ago, Alderant said:

That's my point exactly, Calderis. The WoB is only clear that Shallan made her choice. It says nothing of Shallan and Kaladin never getting together either--one of the possible interpretations being that Shallan and Kaladin get together after she and Adolin split. It also says nothing of Adolin--another one of the many possible interpretations is that Adolin will be the cause of the relationship failing.

This echoes my own thoughts on the matter. WoB could be 100% truthful and still doesn't guarantee Shallan and Kaladin never get together. 

"She made her choice." Is a good turn of phrase, and doesn't mean that she won't agonize over that choice in the coming books. It doesn't mean Adolin won't continue to see her as struggling with the choice and start to act jealously... something I think he's avoided so far. Then there is the previously mentioned 'Adolin dying' option.

-----------------------------------------------------------

I'm not going to link the dozens of great posts in this thread, but I'd like to circle back to the strength/weakness or love/comfort discussion.

I never considered the scene much before reading this thread, but now I definitely have to wonder. It does feel like Shallan MIGHT be choosing the comfort or safety offered by Adolin compared to the visceral passion she (or Veil, but that's an entirely different topic) seemed to feel about Kaladin. 

I also don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

7 hours ago, Sedside said:

A place without fear is a place where you don't develop. You don't go out of your comfort zone. She doesn't want to face her fears, so she chooses weakness. When she sees Kaladin, she stands on two feet, he thinks she is stronger than him. And she also knows, that she can't be weak with Kaladin, I don't think that guy would be interested in a weak girl. He loves her for her strength. So there, weakness before strength.

I agree that you won't develop unless you get out of your comfort zone and face challenge or your fears, but I think what Shallan is looking for right now is to heal and recover. To figure out who and what she is. I think she kept rushing toward danger as a means to distract herself. (though I may be mis-remembering that dialogue between her and Jasnah near the end)

Either way, to heal and self reflect I imagine she would want a safe place, and could be one of the reasons she chose Adolin. Whether that's what she wants and/or needs long term will likely be covered in the next few books, which is why I don't think we'll be done with the triangle any time soon.