theory [OB] Adolin and Shallan will not last

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder

Yes, whether an oath is being kept is between the spren and the Radiant. 

Two members of the same order can interpret an oath differently. 

Spoilered for length, followed by just the relevant portion. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

That does make me wonder how would the spren act/react to two radiants of the same order fighting, or even coming to blows? It greatly disturbed Syl to be used to stab and "kill" the spren tormenting Gavinor. Would it disturb/upset them to strike blows at another radiant, or even potentially kill another radiant?

[Sedside]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

I assume your referring to the first ideal here. 

Life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination. 

The first ideal is not as presented by Teft to Kaladin. It is open to interpretation to the point that it is almost meaningless (to clarify it is very much meaningful to each Radiant, but in a different way). If this weren't the case there would be no Nale or Malata as Radiants. 

If you think he violates the first oath in the way Kaladin lives it that's fine, but that doesn't mean anything. See the following WoB. 

 

Yes, I am referring to this Ideal. I don't think it's useless, though I also agree with you, that it can be tweaked to each Radiant Order. I think this Ideal is about Radiant's personality, not about their actions. Strength of will, responsibility, not being selfish and so on. If this Ideal is useless and means nothing - why speak it in the first place? Why introduce it to the book?

[Vissy]

Anyone can theoretically swear the First Ideal, but the strength of your conviction in it is one of the deciding factors in how far you can progress as a Radiant.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Vissy

[Mage of Lirigon]

6 hours ago, Sedside said:

Yes, I am referring to this Ideal. I don't think it's useless, though I also agree with you, that it can be tweaked to each Radiant Order. I think this Ideal is about Radiant's personality, not about their actions. Strength of will, responsibility, not being selfish and so on. If this Ideal is useless and means nothing - why speak it in the first place? Why introduce it to the book?

The First Ideal is a starting point on the path to being Radiant. It's about having a certain mindset, that mindset can be radically different, based on a person and spren's mentality and how they view that mindset, but what is important is that you and your spren believe in and live it.

[Jofwu]

This discussion is really interesting. I think it's clear that the oath(s) can mean different things to different people (even within an order), but that does make the oaths seem a little of wishy-washy at first.

I think it's important to remember that the Ideals are (or at least were not) CORE to the nahel bond. Nahel bond Surgebinders existed prior to the Ideals. We see Surgebinders in a vision before Nohadon has even written the text that would inspire the oaths. Best we can tell, Ishar somehow bound the spren to require these oaths in some way. I'm really interested in how deep that goes... In any case, we're not dealing with a magic system instituted from the ground up by Honor, who declared, "Thou shalt speak these specific words and understand their meaning as I do." Rather, we've got a magic system that developed naturally... And then in the process of getting organized they all had a Way of Kings book club, where they sat around a table, sipping their wine and talking about how much Nohadon's latest book means to them personally... And someone says, "Guys, we have all these different opinions, but we can all agree that Nohadon was a fantastic author."... Next moment they've got a Nohadon fanclub going, sharing their favorite quotes with squires and basing their personal philosophies on this book... And then Ishar comes along and says, "Hey, this seems to be working out a lot better. I like binding things, so let's do some spirtual mumbo jumbo and make this stick."

Or something like that.

The point being, I can absolutely see WHY this subjectivity exists. It's not that the Ideals are "meaningless." They mean something to the individuals involved, and that matters to the story. The subjectivity is just an artifact of how the system developed.

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, Sedside said:

Yes, I am referring to this Ideal. I don't think it's useless, though I also agree with you, that it can be tweaked to each Radiant Order. I think this Ideal is about Radiant's personality, not about their actions. Strength of will, responsibility, not being selfish and so on.

And I think it's individual to each pair. 

It's not useless... As I said it will be highly significant to each individual for what it means to them. It's only useless in determining who can and can't be Radiants. 

6 hours ago, Sedside said:

If this Ideal is useless and means nothing - why speak it in the first place? Why introduce it to the book?

Narratively it was introduced in the way it was, with one specific meaning shown to us, specifically to create expectations that have since been subverted. 

The meaning that we have been given turns Nale into a monster, pitilessly killing children trying to steal in order to eat. It turns Malata and her opening of the Oathgates for the Fused into a massive traitor responsible for a multitude of deaths. 

And yet they're both still Radiants. Because the oath was presented to us in the way it has been specifically to create the feelings that Radiants are the good guys and that these people shouldn't be able to do these things... But they can and have because what has been presented and what the oath actually is are not one and the same. 

Radiants don't have to be good guys. They don't have to be upstanding citizens who go out of their way to create good in the world. 

And the First Oath allows it, despite what Teft told us. 

[Sedside]

1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

The First Ideal is a starting point on the path to being Radiant. It's about having a certain mindset, that mindset can be radically different, based on a person and spren's mentality and how they view that mindset, but what is important is that you and your spren believe in and live it.

Yes, I agree with that, certain mindset. I just don't see any point if anyone can be a Radiant, just say the Words and gain superpowers.

57 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's not useless... As I said it will be highly significant to each individual for what it means to them. It's only useless in determining who can and can't be Radiants. 

Well, I disagree with this. Words are called Ideal. Ideal is something you are supposed to wish to follow. If you say it just formally because you need to say it, then it's not an Ideal.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Narratively it was introduced in the way it was, with one specific meaning shown to us, specifically to create expectations that have since been subverted. 

Writing something meaningless just to give readers expectations to subvert them later? I can't agree with that.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The meaning that we have been given turns Nale into a monster, pitilessly killing children trying to steal in order to eat. It turns Malata and her opening of the Oathgates for the Fused into a massive traitor responsible for a multitude of deaths

Nale and Malata are not monsters. Only because someone has different opinion and different goals than you doesn't make him a monster. Yes, Nale was killing people, but he thought he was doing the right thing. He didn't kill them because of rage, for pleasure or whatever else. He thought that he must do it, and he was doing it accordingly to his Ideals. He was trying to prevent Desolations, and later he even had been able to understand his mistake, regret it and let Szeth choose his own path. We can't really say much about Malata, because we know very little about her, but she definitely has her own goals. She still can be a glorious Knight Radiant, only on the opposite side, just like Kaladin was on the opposite side for Parshendi at the Tower. Noone called him a monster for that, though he killed a lot there.

Anyway, I believe, that if the Ideal is introduced to the book, then it should mean something. For me it means some traits of personality, to prevent random people from getting superpowers and using them for their own selfish goals, or doing harm to a lot of people, or whatever else it should prevent. Maybe it was meant to prevent what happened to Ashyn.

[Greywatch]

16 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Writing something meaningless just to give readers expectations to subvert them later? I can't agree with that.

Nale and Malata are not monsters. Only because someone has different opinion and different goals than you doesn't make him a monster. Yes, Nale was killing people, but he thought he was doing the right thing. He didn't kill them because of rage, for pleasure or whatever else. He thought that he must do it, and he was doing it accordingly to his Ideals. He was trying to prevent Desolations, and later he even had been able to understand his mistake, regret it and let Szeth choose his own path. We can't really say much about Malata, because we know very little about her, but she definitely has her own goals. She still can be a glorious Knight Radiant, only on the opposite side, just like Kaladin was on the opposite side for Parshendi at the Tower. Noone called him a monster for that, though he killed a lot there.

Anyway, I believe, that if the Ideal is introduced to the book, then it should mean something. For me it means some traits of personality, to prevent random people from getting superpowers and using them for their own selfish goals, or doing harm to a lot of people, or whatever else it should prevent. Maybe it was meant to prevent what happened to Ashyn.

Well, I disagree that it's meaningless. It has a vast and powerful meaning for Kaladin, for example, but Kaladin's ideals could be totally irrelevant to someone else. That doesn't mean what happened to Kaladin doesn't matter, only that expecting all Radiants to follow Kaladin's interpretation of the First Ideal is going to turn out to be wrong.

Some people would consider what Nale and Malata have done to be evil. We know from WoR that the reputation of the Releasers was a really bad one, that some people considered them almost as bad as Voidbringers. That's not about Malata, that's about the original Releasers from one of the WoR epigraphs. Of the Releasers, negative opinions abound today, with their drive being described as wanting to break everything apart - not exactly shining praise. I definitely agree with you that everyone thinks their own views and actions are justifiable, but from the outside, we're free to make judgements about how bad someone's actions are. For me personally, I find Nale's actions the worst, knowing it was wrong to kill those people and deciding to do it anyway, even when he knew inside that it was too late. Malata is described by her own spren as being full of rage and wanting to make people pay. Her motivation seems like a lot like revenge, with the scenes we get from her in OB. 

Apologies for not getting book quotes. I'm typing this on my phone at work.

[Mage of Lirigon]

28 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Yes, I agree with that, certain mindset. I just don't see any point if anyone can be a Radiant, just say the Words and gain superpowers.

 

Anyway, I believe, that if the Ideal is introduced to the book, then it should mean something. For me it means some traits of personality, to prevent random people from getting superpowers and using them for their own selfish goals, or doing harm to a lot of people, or whatever else it should prevent. Maybe it was meant to prevent what happened to Ashyn.

It's not about simply saying the words, it's about living up to a mindset. The thing is, this mindset can be radically different depending on you or your spren. Think of it like religion. Religions have different tenets, but they all require faith in them.

 

Quote

Well, I disagree with this. Words are called Ideal. Ideal is something you are supposed to wish to follow. If you say it just formally because you need to say it, then it's not an Ideal.

An ideal is a standard you're supposed to live up to and aspire toward. That's exactly what the Ideals are about, it's just there's no universal external standard, it's about being your own best self.

 

Quote

Writing something meaningless just to give readers expectations to subvert them later? I can't agree with that.

Subverting reader's expectation is a classic literary technique. I'm sorry you don't like it, but many of the best stories in history have used this technique.

Plus, as I've mentioned above, the Ideals are not meaningless, they simply don't mean what readers think they mean, because of our prior understanding of the classic Western image of a knight's code. The point of the Ideals to to critique the assumption that you can become a good person simply by following external rules. Like Szeth said in OB, excellence is an individual quest.

 

Quote

Nale and Malata are not monsters. Only because someone has different opinion and different goals than you doesn't make him a monster. Yes, Nale was killing people, but he thought he was doing the right thing. He didn't kill them because of rage, for pleasure or whatever else. He thought that he must do it, and he was doing it accordingly to his Ideals. He was trying to prevent Desolations, and later he even had been able to understand his mistake, regret it and let Szeth choose his own path. 

Whatever Ideals, opinions or goals you hold, murdering a harmless, starving child for them makes you a monster. You can easily have the best of intentions and still be a a monster. Nale is a monster, even he would agree.

 

Quote

We can't really say much about Malata, because we know very little about her, but she definitely has her own goals. She still can be a glorious Knight Radiant, only on the opposite side, 

You can be a glorious Knight Radiant, and a monster at the same time. The ends do not justify the means, especially when said means are betraying the trust people put in you and feeling nothing about it after the fact.

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon

[Use the Falchion]

1 hour ago, Jofwu said:

This discussion is really interesting. I think it's clear that the oath(s) can mean different things to different people (even within an order), but that does make the oaths seem a little of wishy-washy at first.

I think it's important to remember that the Ideals are (or at least were not) CORE to the nahel bond. Nahel bond Surgebinders existed prior to the Ideals. We see Surgebinders in a vision before Nohadon has even written the text that would inspire the oaths. Best we can tell, Ishar somehow bound the spren to require these oaths in some way. I'm really interested in how deep that goes... In any case, we're not dealing with a magic system instituted from the ground up by Honor, who declared, "Thou shalt speak these specific words and understand their meaning as I do." Rather, we've got a magic system that developed naturally... And then in the process of getting organized they all had a Way of Kings book club, where they sat around a table, sipping their wine and talking about how much Nohadon's latest book means to them personally... And someone says, "Guys, we have all these different opinions, but we can all agree that Nohadon was a fantastic author."... Next moment they've got a Nohadon fanclub going, sharing their favorite quotes with squires and basing their personal philosophies on this book... And then Ishar comes along and says, "Hey, this seems to be working out a lot better. I like binding things, so let's do some spirtual mumbo jumbo and make this stick."

Or something like that.

The point being, I can absolutely see WHY this subjectivity exists. It's not that the Ideals are "meaningless." They mean something to the individuals involved, and that matters to the story. The subjectivity is just an artifact of how the system developed.

Next thing you know Sanderson's gonna separate us all into Orders of Mistborn, Stormlight, or Skyward or something like that, and the Mods here (and Reddit) will become the Herald equivalents.

[Sedside]

13 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

It's not about simply saying the words, it's about living up to a mindset. The thing is, this mindset can be radically different depending on you or your spren. Think of it like religion. Religions have different tenets, but they all require faith in them.

 

An ideal is a standard you're supposed to live up to and aspire toward. That's exactly what the Ideals are about, it's just there's no universal external standard, it's about being your own best self.

 

Subverting reader's expectation is a classic literary technique. I'm sorry you don't like it, but many of the best stories in history have used this technique.

Plus, as I've mentioned above, the Ideals are not meaningless, they simply don't mean what readers think they mean, because of our prior understanding of the classic Western image of a knight's code. The point of the Ideals to to critique the assumption that you can become a good person simply by following external rules. Like Szeth said in OB, excellence is an individual quest.

 

Whatever Ideals, opinions or goals you hold, murdering a harmless, starving child for them makes you a monster. You can easily have the best of intentions and still be a a monster. Nale is a monster, even he would agree.

 

You can be a glorious Knight Radiant, and a monster at the same time. The ends do not justify the means, especially when said means are betraying the trust people put in you and feeling nothing about it after the fact.

 

I'm sorry, don't know how to multiquote from phone, so I will reply by paragraphs.

Yes, good comparison with religion. Religions are different in details, but they have a lot of general things in common. That's exactly how I understand the First Ideal.

Yes, totally agree with this one too. The First Ideal states the power of personality.

I didn't say I don't like subverting reader expectations. I said I don't like putting something to a book just to create readers' expectations just to subvert them later.

I actually had a little bit more thinking about all this First Ideal things and I kind of found the correct wording for it. I don't mean you have to be a good guy, no. Is Dalinar a good guy? He is a storming mass murderer. But he follows the First Ideal quite well. What about Amaram? He hadn't killed as many people, as Dalinar, but he doesn't fit the First Ideal.

The difference between our "classic" villains (T, Amaram and my poor lovely Sadeas) and "Radiant" villains is in responsibility/compassion thing. Amaram has compassion, but gives up responsibility. T changes states depending on his intelligence. Sadeas has responsibility, but has no compassion. I can't really say anything about Malata, not enough text about her. But Nale definitely knows his responsibility for his actions, he admits his mistakes, he is willing to help Singers, his actions were to prevent Desolation, and he didn't take excessive sacrifices for that. He only killed Surgebinders and Knights Radiant, if I'm not mistaken.

So I think that the First Ideal is dedicated to taking responsibility for your actions, and not being psychopath at the same time. That's not all it is about, "journey before destination" is a different thing, but I have already offtopped too much here.

[insert_anagram_here]

I agree that the First Ideal fits differently in each Order, but I do not agree that it's almost meaningless, otherwise, everyone would've been a Radiant.

Personally, I interpret it as 'willing to accept change'. It serves both as a literary device, because it makes Radiants interesting characters to read (and the ones that do not grow interesting in their own way), but also fits the in-world restriction that it should fit Cultivation's intent, pruning and growing. (I don't think Honor is actually part of it, at least not anymore)

It's just that 'change' means growth towards a different target for each Order and as a Radiant progresses (IF they progress) they 'specialize' towards that certain target.

What I think might be something that's been staring back at us all this time, is the reason for the Recreance. Just like we've been disagreeing between us all this time, if one or another character fits into Radiancy, each Order's target could potentially contradict another Order's target. The higher the Ideals the bigger the contradiction. So maybe that's exactly what broke the Radiants apart.

[The Technovore]

I didn’t read all six pages, so this may be a bit out of place, but I saw some Shaladin shippers pointing out how Shadolin shippers always say Shaladin is “cliche” and the Shaladin shippers don’t get why. They also said Shaladin has a ton of chemistry. Personally, (and this is just my two chips here), I think it’s that chemistry that is exactly *why* Shadolin shippers call it “Cliche”. Because Shadolin is different. It’s unexpected. With Shaladin here you have two characters that mesh really well together, much like in every other book. Normally in every other book this chemistry would just “naturally develop” into a sailed ship. I think it’s the fact that this doesn’t happen that makes Shadolin shippers so happy with that. How many times have we, the readers, been able to clearly identify two characters and go “yep. Those two are getting hitched.” And nearly 100% of the time are right? Shadolin surprised us. It was the arranged marriage. It didn’t make a ton of sense. And yet it happened. Shallan was supposed to get insulted at Adolin’s bad behavior and wandering eyes, spill violet all over him, and run into Kaladin’s burly, rogueish arms. But she didn’t. And now they’re married. And it’s to her mental health’s benefit that they are. It’s a massive trope break, a pleasant surprise (if you shipped it when you read OB) So, that’s where I think a lot of Shadolin shippers are coming from, me included. Maybe it’s because I’m a little too much like Adolin, but I really enjoy his character. I want the best for that guy, and I was really happy when Shadolin shipped, so for my own sake I want that ship keep together on these stormy seas. (Although I will admit a divorce storyline would be really interesting to read, if somewhat painful.)

 

Just my two chips.

[Sedside]

5 hours ago, The Technovore said:

I didn’t read all six pages, so this may be a bit out of place, but I saw some Shaladin shippers pointing out how Shadolin shippers always say Shaladin is “cliche” and the Shaladin shippers don’t get why. They also said Shaladin has a ton of chemistry. Personally, (and this is just my two chips here), I think it’s that chemistry that is exactly *why* Shadolin shippers call it “Cliche”. Because Shadolin is different. It’s unexpected. With Shaladin here you have two characters that mesh really well together, much like in every other book. Normally in every other book this chemistry would just “naturally develop” into a sailed ship. I think it’s the fact that this doesn’t happen that makes Shadolin shippers so happy with that. How many times have we, the readers, been able to clearly identify two characters and go “yep. Those two are getting hitched.” And nearly 100% of the time are right? Shadolin surprised us. It was the arranged marriage. It didn’t make a ton of sense. And yet it happened. Shallan was supposed to get insulted at Adolin’s bad behavior and wandering eyes, spill violet all over him, and run into Kaladin’s burly, rogueish arms. But she didn’t. And now they’re married. And it’s to her mental health’s benefit that they are. It’s a massive trope break, a pleasant surprise (if you shipped it when you read OB) So, that’s where I think a lot of Shadolin shippers are coming from, me included. Maybe it’s because I’m a little too much like Adolin, but I really enjoy his character. I want the best for that guy, and I was really happy when Shadolin shipped, so for my own sake I want that ship keep together on these stormy seas. (Although I will admit a divorce storyline would be really interesting to read, if somewhat painful.)

 

Just my two chips.

Yeah, this kind of "trope break" is actually what makes me mad  It's like a job interview. We've got two candidates, one is perfect for the job and another one is awful. Let's take the second one, because it's a trope break.

That's what Shalladin "shippers" dislike, actually. Breaking a trope for the sake of breaking a trope and doing it very awkwardly and "just because I wrote so". Unbelievable and clumpsy.

I took "shippers" in brackets because I don't actually think that Shalladin is a ship. Maybe I don't understand properly what "ship" means, but I think it is something like Jasnah x Lopen or Lift x Beard, you know. Something of pure "would be nice". Shalladin is not a ship, as well as Shadolin, in my opinion. It is a romantic arc that objectively exists in the book.

[Greywatch]

5 minutes ago, Sedside said:

I took "shippers" in brackets because I don't actually think that Shalladin is a ship. Maybe I don't understand properly what "ship" means, but I think it is something like Jasnah x Lopen or Lift x Beard, you know. Something of pure "would be nice". Shalladin is not a ship, as well as Shadolin, in my opinion. It is a romantic arc that objectively exists in the book.

Just as a for-your-information, the broad term of shipping can include canon and non-canon relationships.

Here's a fun article on the origins of the term: Article~ (Warning for possible cursing.)

Quote

A ship can be canonical (e.g., in Firefly, Wash and Zoe are married) or expected to be canonical (e.g., for most of The X-files, there was a reasonable expectation that Mulder and Scully might get together—and in fact, they eventually did). Other ships can be noncanonical (e.g., in Harry Potter Ron and Hermione eventually get married; Harry/Hermione shippers, on the other hand, prefer to imagine a different outcome) or even anticanonical.

Everyone definitely has individual ideas about what counts as shipping, but the understanding in the broadest terms across all fandoms is just that it's a relationship you care about and are relatively enthusiastic about. Most people would consider Shalladin and Shadolin to be ships. Also Dalinar/Navani, Kaladin/Adolin, Kaladin/Renarin, Jasnah/Kaladin, Shallan/Renarin (all things I've seen art and fanfic and enthusiastic discussions about), as well as getting into silly "crackships" like Jasnah/Lopen. They all count, and it doesn't either legitimize or de-legitimize anything.

[Use the Falchion]

28 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Yeah, this kind of "trope break" is actually what makes me mad  It's like a job interview. We've got two candidates, one is perfect for the job and another one is awful. Let's take the second one, because it's a trope break.

Meh, in this case wouldn't it be more like "one is seemingly perfect for the job and the other was hired by nepotism. But when they both get the chance, the nepotism hired one actually exceeds all expectations while the seemingly perfect one can't fix the coffee maker?"

Sanderson rarely does things just to break the trope and leave it at that. He explores the consequences and plays out scenarios to their conclusions - but he always circles back to the heart of the genre/trope. 

Kaladin and Shallan wouldn't work together IMO because of how they handle trauma at this moment. Kaladin effectively shuts down while Shallan buries what she can and ignores what she can't. And Kaladin is impressed by this. Shallan also has a bit more work on her classism and racism to do. Kaladin has less work, but work nonetheless. 

So on the surface, Kaladin and Shallan seem great for each other with all that belligerent sexual tension and whatnot, when the attraction fades away and they have real life problems to work through, I'm not sure they would have the strength to do so. 

And like @Greywatch said, there are ships for everything. The key is not to get too caught up in what your favorite one is. That way leads to madness...

[Sedside]

8 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Just as a for-your-information, the broad term of shipping can include canon and non-canon relationships.

Here's a fun article on the origins of the term: Article~ (Warning for possible cursing.)

Everyone definitely has individual ideas about what counts as shipping, but the understanding in the broadest terms across all fandoms is just that it's a relationship you care about and are relatively enthusiastic about. Most people would consider Shalladin and Shadolin to be ships. Also Dalinar/Navani, Kaladin/Adolin, Kaladin/Renarin, Jasnah/Kaladin, Shallan/Renarin (all things I've seen art and fanfic and enthusiastic discussions about), as well as getting into silly "crackships" like Jasnah/Lopen. They all count, and it doesn't either legitimize or de-legitimize anything.

Yeah, thank you. Got it now

 

8 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Kaladin and Shallan wouldn't work together IMO because of how they handle trauma at this moment. Kaladin effectively shuts down while Shallan buries what she can and ignores what she can't. And Kaladin is impressed by this. Shallan also has a bit more work on her classism and racism to do. Kaladin has less work, but work nonetheless. 

So on the surface, Kaladin and Shallan seem great for each other with all that belligerent sexual tension and whatnot, when the attraction fades away and they have real life problems to work through, I'm not sure they would have the strength to do so. 

I don't know how to add the quote to the previous post, hope moderators can do it for me.

Your last paragraph is exactly what I think about Shallan and Adolin. They are the ones who have sexual tension that will fade and they will have problems. I don't understand, why Shadolin supporters keep saying that Shalladin is about sexual tension. Where? She loves Adolin for his hair, stupid arms, and wants to rip his shirt off. In Kaladin she is focused on his eyes, his contained passion and so on. On his personality, in other words. Where is it sexual tension?

About another paragraph - show me Shallan's classism, please. She was always quite good to darkeyes, starting with Yalb. And that argument about Kaladin admiring her coping mechanisms - actually, this is the what is on the surface. This is what Shallan says to justify her choice of Adolin. She says it first of all to herself. I wouldn't follow her in those considerations. I would like to take other things into account. Maybe it will be another research of mine, if the previous one goes well

[Greywatch]

@Sedside I'm not sure where I ought to post a guide, because merging double posts seems to be my main job these days ;P but essentially, click "edit" on the previous post you've just made and it will reopen the same text editor. 

The plus sign is the multi quote button and that's how you can quote multiple people in the same post.

If you are editing in a new response or you want to quote multiple things from the same person, then in the editor, there is this button " which will create a quote box, which you can then paste text into. (It even has a "remove formatting" button once you paste things in so it matches the forum formatting without having to do anything wonky.) It's one manual step more than the quote buttons but still very easy to use. The " button saves my life, haha

[Sedside]

4 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

@Sedside I'm not sure where I ought to post a guide, because merging double posts seems to be my main job these days ;P but essentially, click "edit" on the previous post you've just made and it will reopen the same text editor. 

The plus sign is the multi quote button and that's how you can quote multiple people in the same post.

If you are editing in a new response or you want to quote multiple things from the same person, then in the editor, there is this button " which will create a quote box, which you can then paste text into. (It even has a "remove formatting" button once you paste things in so it matches the forum formatting without having to do anything wonky.) It's one manual step more than the quote buttons but still very easy to use. The " button saves my life, haha

Thank you again, unfortunately, my upvotes have ended for today

[Greywatch]

1 minute ago, Sedside said:

Thank you again, unfortunately, my upvotes have ended for today

No worries! I'm just glad it was helpful

[Use the Falchion]

19 hours ago, Sedside said:

Your last paragraph is exactly what I think about Shallan and Adolin. They are the ones who have sexual tension that will fade and they will have problems. I don't understand, why Shadolin supporters keep saying that Shalladin is about sexual tension. Where? She loves Adolin for his hair, stupid arms, and wants to rip his shirt off. In Kaladin she is focused on his eyes, his contained passion and so on. On his personality, in other words. Where is it sexual tension?

It's in the banter, the fact that when she daydreams or doddles and Kaladin is in the room, the "storming bridgeman" ends up on the paper, or how that his passion and his looks are all that Shallan sees. 

Also as a reminder, remember that their first meeting was Shallan conning her way into the warcamp; and she never once went back to apologize about it or explain herself to Kaladin. And their most intimate scene? Both Kaladin and Shallan show how racist they are to each other: Shallan thought that Kaladin is unfair for being racist and suspicious against her for what in her mind amounted in a silly joke. She thought so little of him and his role other than "he might be a nuisance" because of he was darkeyes. And while he might be wrong about the former, Kaladin was certainly correct about the latter (the same way how Adolin was correct to be suspicious about him.

19 hours ago, Sedside said:

bout another paragraph - show me Shallan's classism, please. She was always quite good to darkeyes, starting with Yalb. And that argument about Kaladin admiring her coping mechanisms - actually, this is the what is on the surface.

Maybe classism isn't the best word to use, but it's what I'm using in this context; I save racism for the views and conflicts between humans, singers, and any other separate race, not lighteyes and darkeyes. I apologize if it has caused any confusion of any kind. Anyways! My example:

Chapter 15: Brightness Radiant

"'I know it's not feminine, but who cares? You've got a sword; you should know how to use it, and custom can go to Damnation. There, I said it.' He took a deep breath. 'I mean, the bridgeboy can have one, and he's darkeyed. Well he was. Anyway, it's not so different from that.'

Thank you, Shallan though, for ranking all women as something equivalent to peasants." 

This is important for multiple people. First is Adolin to show that while he has good intentions, the level of sexism in this culture is still very, VERY strong. But he's willing to overcome tradition and gender roles for her. Secondly, this shows what Shallan really thinks about darekeyes. Our Lightweaver might treat darkeyes well, but currently she sees them all still as peasants. She is a lighteyes, and even in poverty is above such things. That level of classism is so ingrained in her she doesn't even think about it.

 

Overall though, I think Adolin and Shallan will last for two reasons: First, Adolin is open with Shallan. The key to a good relationship is openness and honesty, and Adolin gives that to Shallan in spades - chapters 13 &15 are literally Adolin confronting his fears about their relationship and him willing to break gender norms by teaching her swordplay. 

Secondly, Adolin KNOWS Shallan. He knows who she is and accepts that. He's her rock. Shallan says Kaladin is like a storm, and I find that accurate. Kaladin would be able to passionately sweep the redhead off her feet, but he could offer her no safety after the high. She'd rise with him and fall with him. Adolin is constant. He might not provide such dramatic highs, but when she's lost herself, if she can find Adolin, she can find her way "home". 

 

[Sedside]

34 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

It's in the banter, the fact that when she daydreams or doddles and Kaladin is in the room, the "storming bridgeman" ends up on the paper, or how that his passion and his looks are all that Shallan sees. 

The book disagrees with you:

Quote

Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were—or what you did—you could not hurt him. Could not change him.

He was. Like the wind and rocks were.

Is this sexual tension? Only his looks? He is not even present in this scene. As a reminder, Adolin is near in this moment, she is talking to him, but starts comparing him to Kaladin and even misses what Adolin says next.

35 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Also as a reminder, remember that their first meeting was Shallan conning her way into the warcamp; and she never once went back to apologize about it or explain herself to Kaladin.

She wasn't conning her way, her way was pretty all right. She was tricked into this by Tyn, but still agrees, that what she did was not good. And even somewhat apologizes:

Quote

"Fine. You stole my boots. You pretended to be someone you weren't and bullied a darkeyed guard you'd barely met. Is that a good enough example of you playing with someone you saw as beneath you?"

She stopped in her tracks. He was right, there. She wanted to blame Tyn's influence, but his comment cut the bite out of her argument.

He stopped ahead of her, looking back. Finally, he sighed. "Look," he said. "I'm not holding a grudge about the boots. From what I've seen lately, you're not as bad as the others. So let's just leave it at that."

"Not as bad as the others?" Shallan said, walking forward. "What a deligthful compliment. Well, let's say you're right. Perhaps I am an insensitive rich woman. That doesn't change the fact that you can be downright mean and offensive, Kaladin Stormblessed."

He shrugged.

"That's it?" she asked. "I apologize, and all I get in return is a shrug?"

Emphasis mine.

52 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

And their most intimate scene? Both Kaladin and Shallan show how racist they are to each other: Shallan thought that Kaladin is unfair for being racist and suspicious against her for what in her mind amounted in a silly joke. She thought so little of him and his role other than "he might be a nuisance" because of he was darkeyes.

Please, give me a quote, when she thinks bad of Kaladin, because he is darkeyes.

What do you mean by their most intimate scene? The whole chasms sequence? Well, this is actually the story about how they started hostile to each other and ended in love with each other. And racism was his issue, not hers. She said that his problem is that he is hateful and is huge pain in the neck, not that he is darkeyes and beneath her. Really, give me one quote when she acts bad to someone because he/she is darkeyes. And not under Tyn's influence, please.

56 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

"'I know it's not feminine, but who cares? You've got a sword; you should know how to use it, and custom can go to Damnation. There, I said it.' He took a deep breath. 'I mean, the bridgeboy can have one, and he's darkeyed. Well he was. Anyway, it's not so different from that.'

Thank you, Shallan though, for ranking all women as something equivalent to peasants." 

Again, it is not that she thinks darkeyes are peasants. It is that in Adolin's wording. What she is thinking about here is how Adolin brings it to the table, he brought eye color to the argument, not she. The same way as with Kaladin - he is the one who cares about eye color, not her.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

Secondly, Adolin KNOWS Shallan.

He knows maskShallan. He thinks it is "worrisome" that she "becomes other people". He would not be intimate with Veil. When she is not maskShallan he thinks that "something is wrong". He wants to be overprotective, but she hates being protected. She hates her sword, but he pushes her into learing to use it, not even trying to listen to her objections. And this dialogue?

Quote

“Shallan’s broken, so I think I’m trying to hide her. Like a cracked vase, where you turn the nice side toward the room, hiding the flaw. I’m not doing it on purpose, but it’s happening, and I don’t know how to stop it.”

He held her.

“No advice?” she asked, numb. “Everyone always seems to have loads.”

“You’re the smart one. What can I say?”

“It’s confusing, being all these people. I feel like I’m presenting different faces all the time. Lying to everyone, because I’m different inside. I … That doesn’t make sense, does it?” She squeezed her eyes shut again. “I’ll pull it back together. I’ll be … someone.”

“I…” He pulled her tight again as the ship rocked. “Shallan, I killed Sadeas.”

She is sharing with him her deepest trouble, she is weak at the moment and maybe finally asks him for a support, and what does he do? "You are the smart one" and then he switches the dialogue to himself. To what bothers him. He doesn't care about what's troubling her, he thinks she will deal with her problems on her own. And when she asks him, which one he wants, he says "the real you". Very smart reply. Brilliant, innovative, he really did put a lot of effort into his thought process to formulate something like this.

There are only three dialogues with Kaladin (in private) in OB, but, oh, come on:

Quote

“Storms!” he said, kneeling beside her. Pattern slipped off his coat, humming happily. “Shallan, what happened to you?”

“Well,” she said, “as a connoisseur of things that have killed me, I think a sword happened.”

“Shallan…”

“The evil force that rules the palace did not think highly of someone coming with a letter from the king.” She smiled at him. “You could say, um, it made that point quite clear.”

Smile. I need you to smile.

I need what happened to be all right. Something that can simply roll off me.

Please.

“Well…” Kaladin said. “I’m glad we … took a stab at this anyway.” He smiled.

It was all right. Just another day, another infiltration.

Should I bring you the quotes of what Adolin said in similar situations and how Shallan reacted on it? Like after she returned from the chasms, after she got drunk as Veil and stabbed her hand? Adolin knows her, sure, and Kaladin doesn't. Adolin thinks she is made of crystal and needs protection and Kaladin thinks this woman is stronger than he'd ever been.

In other dialogues Kaladin shows, that he can easily support her wordplay, and her scholarship. Yeah, this one "fateful" dialog which starts nicely and only goes bad in the end, that everyone keeps bringing up. They are both in their worst states ever and they start talking about their mental health. Sure, one bad dialogue can ruin all the chemistry and kinship and anything else.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

Kaladin would be able to passionately sweep the redhead off her feet, but he could offer her no safety after the high. She'd rise with him and fall with him. Adolin is constant. He might not provide such dramatic highs, but when she's lost herself, if she can find Adolin, she can find her way "home".

Could you support this with quotes? Like how he will passionately sweep her off her feet? Especially after she says, that Adolin makes her want to rip his shirt off? How Adolin is constant, when she thinks that Kaladin is the one you can't change? And currently it's Adolin who always changes under the influence of the others. A moment ago he wanted to break with Shallan, but she convinced him not to. Was she able to convince Kaladin not to sacrifice himself to save her from the chasmfiend? Both actions were, supposedly, something both men didn't want to do. But Adolin is convinced to change his opinion in a blink of an eye, and Kaladin is like winds and rocks.

[Use the Falchion]

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Quote

passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were—or what you did—you could not hurt him. Could not change him.

He was. Like the wind and rocks were.

Is this sexual tension? Only his looks? He is not even present in this scene. As a reminder, Adolin is near in this moment, she is talking to him, but starts comparing him to Kaladin and even misses what Adolin says next.

That's what I was alluding to in comparing Kaladin to the storm. I'll address Adolin's reaction to this later on as it has more to do with one of his arcs in the book.

 

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

because he/she is darkeyes. And not under Tyn's influence, please.

Why not under Tyn's influence? Oathbringer's whole point was that despite someone else's influence, what you do is still on you. So yeah, Tyn might have influenced things, but it was still Shallan's choice to do said things. And by this, I mean bullying a darkeyes - who, do you think, she would have done if he was lighteyes? - out of his boots. 

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

He knows maskShallan. He thinks it is "worrisome" that she "becomes other people".

He knows Shallan. Brandon explicitly said it.

Quote

Share Copy

Play/Pause

 

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

Shallan... in Oathbringer... she meets Adolin, and he's staring into her eyes. And she thinks that he can see that when she's Shallan again. So, my question is, is she correct? And if so, how did Adolin see that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, it's not a magical thing. She shifts even when she's kind of being herself-- When she becomes different people, even if she's not completely Lightweaving herself, she shifts.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

Is it visible?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It is visible.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

So he's looking very closely.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

And he wouldn't be able to point out that he had seen that. But it's intuitive, and he's learned to recognize that.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

...In her final scene, she seems like she kind of summons her personas-- as if she's fully in control, and they're not coming by themselves anymore, is that correct?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

So, they still come and go as they want?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, she's much more in control, but still has a way to go.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

Would Wit basically approve of what she's done?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He would give her a "that's a step forward, but you're not there yet."

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Again, it is not that she thinks darkeyes are peasants.

No, she does. Because she explicitly thought that. Adolin says that Shallan learning how to use her Shardblade is on the same taboo level as a darkeyes learning to use one. But Shallan doesn't say darkeyes like Adolin does. What does she think? Peasant.

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Kaladin thinks this woman is stronger than he'd ever been.

And in a way he's right, but the way Shallan handles her trauma isn't healthy, and he thinks it is. 

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

In other dialogues Kaladin shows, that he can easily support her wordplay, and her scholarship.

Adolin doesn't do wordplay, but he listens to Shallan's scholarship. He picked up on Shallan's worries about how the Greatshell hunts might be driving the species to extinction. His whole attack on the Listeners at the end of WoR was based on Shallan's studies. And let's not forget how he seems acutely aware of what excuses girls might make in order to 

 

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

trying to listen to her objections. And this dialogue?

Quote

“Shallan’s broken, so I think I’m trying to hide her. Like a cracked vase, where you turn the nice side toward the room, hiding the flaw. I’m not doing it on purpose, but it’s happening, and I don’t know how to stop it.”

He held her.

“No advice?” she asked, numb. “Everyone always seems to have loads.”

“You’re the smart one. What can I say?”

“It’s confusing, being all these people. I feel like I’m presenting different faces all the time. Lying to everyone, because I’m different inside. I … That doesn’t make sense, does it?” She squeezed her eyes shut again. “I’ll pull it back together. I’ll be … someone.”

“I…” He pulled her tight again as the ship rocked. “Shallan, I killed Sadeas.”

She is sharing with him her deepest trouble, she is weak at the moment and maybe finally asks him for a support, and what does he do? "You are the smart one" and then he switches the dialogue to himself. To what bothers him. He doesn't care about what's troubling her, he thinks she will deal with her problems on her own. And when she asks him, which one he wants, he says "the real you". Very smart reply. Brilliant, innovative, he really did put a lot of effort into his thought process to formulate something like this.

You forgot to add the end of their conversation.

Quote

“Yeah,” he said. “Yeah, maybe. In any case, I think I know what it’s like to feel like you’re lying to the world. So maybe if you figure out what to do, you could tell me?” She leaned into him, listening to his heartbeat, his breathing. She felt his warmth.

“You never did say,” she whispered, “which one you prefer.”

“It’s obvious. I prefer the real you.”

“Which one is that, though?”

“She’s the one I’m talking to right now. You don’t have to hide, Shallan. You don’t have to push it down. Maybe the vase is cracked, but that only means it can show what’s inside. And I like what’s inside.”

So warm. Comfortable. And strikingly unfamiliar. What was this peace? This place without fear?

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 1013-1014). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

The point of Adolin confessing was first to get something off his chest; the second was to commiserate with Shallan. It wasn't to steal the spotlight away from her, but to say that he has an idea of what she's going through and that he's there to support her through whatever she needs. 

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

And currently it's Adolin who always changes under the influence of the others. A moment ago he wanted to break with Shallan, but she convinced him not to.

Adolin adapts, and you could call that change but Adolin doesn't, and neither do I.

Quote

The world is the same as it’s always been, Adolin thought. These things we’re finding—monsters and Radiants—aren’t new. They were only hidden. The world has always been like this, even if I didn’t know it.

And Adolin … he was still himself. He had all the same things to be proud of, didn’t he? Same strengths? Same accomplishments?

Same flaws too.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 884-885). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Also, calling Adolin wanting to break with Shallan "a moment" might be disvaluing Adolin and Shallan's whole shared arc. Adolin makes it very clear from the end of WoR - and chapter 13 specifically - that he isn't sure of his place in the betrothal. He's learning to deal with his own inadequacy in the world, and part of that manifests in his relationship with Shallan. Another part manifests when he sees how much better Shallan and Kaladin get along (at first glance and from his POV*)

 

*my point isn't to argue that Shallan and Kaladin don't have a spark. My side is simply that they aren't good for each other and Adolin and Shallan are.

[Sedside]

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

He knows Shallan. Brandon explicitly said it.

I don't see in this WoB that he knows Shallan. I see that he can visibly distinguish her shifts of personas.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

You forgot to add the end of their conversation.

I didn't forget. I didn't want to add it for the length, to me it changes nothing. It is still a conversation of two selfish people, both of them only care about their own troubles. She says "I'm shattered" - he says "no worries, you can deal with it". He says "I killed Sadeas" - she says "no worries, you did good". She says "anyways, what about my personas?" - he says "I don't care, I want the real one, it's up to you". And then comes the sexual tension™.

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Also, calling Adolin wanting to break with Shallan "a moment" might be disvaluing Adolin and Shallan's whole shared arc. Adolin makes it very clear from the end of WoR - and chapter 13 specifically - that he isn't sure of his place in the betrothal. He's learning to deal with his own inadequacy in the world, and part of that manifests in his relationship with Shallan. Another part manifests when he sees how much better Shallan and Kaladin get along (at first glance and from his POV*)

My wording could be not very good, my English vocabulary is quite poor. I mean that Adolin is not able to make a hard decision. He sees, how inadequate he is for Shallan and he is not sure he is what she needs, he sees that she has feelings to another guy, and he "decides" to step away. But he can't stand his ground and keep to his "decision", so it is not a decision, it is just a bla bla, air disturbance. When Kaladin made a decision to sacrifice himself for Shallan, she was trying desperately to make him change his mind, but she couldn't. He just wouldn't listen, because it is his storming decision. And that made her make a step towards him, open him a secret and summon for him a Shardblade she hates so much. Perhaps if Adolin had enough balls to stand on his decision to break up, it would make her love him more. But he just showed himself weak and manipulable. Again.

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

*my point isn't to argue that Shallan and Kaladin don't have a spark. My side is simply that they aren't good for each other and Adolin and Shallan are.

Yeah, I got it. I hope, SA4 will arbitrate us. Or SA5

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

He sees, how inadequate he is for Shallan and he is not sure he is what she needs, he sees that she has feelings to another guy, and he "decides" to step away

No, he decides that Kaladin can "have" her, which is a troublesome statement in itself and shows how he sees their relationship. Also correlates to how he tells her, that he'll never let anything happen to her again after the chasms. Back then, he got a telling off for it. Now, Shallan was too desperate for that.

It's just... I don't see love on Adolin's side. I see "romantic" platitudes, which are so textbook they could have been out of a self-help brochure. I don't see him devastated or angry, that the woman he is supposed to love, is leering at Kaladin, but instead goes "eh too bad, I can't compete with that". Adolin is capable of emotion and anger, as seen by how he murdered Sadeas, so why doesn't he get angry when his fiancée practically eye-storms Kaladin? Because he doesn't love her. He wants to marry her not out of love, but for his own prestige, to not disappoint his family, to save face, to not be "the guy, that can't keep a wife". Which is also why he even started all those courtships in the first place: His desire always was "lounging, dueling and maybe court a girl or two", but he never wanted long-term.