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[OB] Adolin and Shallan will not last

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BTW, this:

Quote

Questioner

There's a scene where you can see from the perspective of Nan Balat, Shallan's brother, where he's maiming an insect. It's described as soothing his aches. Is that in any way related to how Kaladin feels depressed and down during the Weeping even in his early childhood?

Brandon Sanderson

What's happening to Nan Balat is magically enhanced. What's happening to Kaladin is mostly just chemical depression. Be he is really too young to be diagnosed with depression during some of these events, but he's got the seeds in there. So Kaladin is not magically depressed. Kaladin is just legitimatly a person with depression. Nan Balat... What's up with him is... ah... being exaggerated by certain forces moving in on Roshar. (last bit is a bit indistinctive)

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

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does not say this:

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

Depression is a mundane neurochemcial thing

In that WoB Sanderson pointed out that what's happening to Kaladin isn't infused by external Investiture, an Unmade, (like Nan Balat's case), not that depression is a 'mundane neurochemcial thing'. That is your own personal interpretation, which quite frankly isn't very astute. 

Anyway, I disagree that a Lightweaver is needed to 'fix' Kaladin's depression, that doesn't sound like an in-depth resolution but more of a 'patch-up' work. And since it's an aspect verified as 'non-magical', I think it would make a lot more sense if he manages to overcome it in a 'non-magical' way. At least, it would offer better closure for the readership relating to him and his situation.

Edited by insert_anagram_here
typo
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3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

In that WoB Sanderson pointed out that what's happening to Kaladin isn't infused by external Investiture, an Unmade, (like Nan Balat's case), not that depression is a 'mundane neurochemcial thing'. That is your own personal interpretation, which quite frankly isn't very astute. 

Anyway, I disagree that a Lightweaver is needed to 'fix' Kaladin's depression, that doesn't sound like an in-depth resolution but more of a 'patch-up' work. And since it's an aspect verified as 'non-magical', I think it would make a lot more sense if he manages to overcome it in a 'non-magical' way. At least, it would offer better closure for the readership relating to him and his situation.

I mean, I don’t know if you were arguing against depression being a neurochemcial thing or it being a mundane neurochemical thing, but I don’t think @Quantus meant to downplay Kaladin’s depression. I think they probably just meant to say that it’s not magically enhanced or driven.

I don’t think that Kaladin has to ‘overcome’ his depression. There’s no such thing as ‘overcoming’ depression. It’s a constant struggle, where some days you have more control, and other days you have very little control. Granted, I assume that, whenever the SA ends, Kaladin will be at a point where he has more control over his depression, but that doesn’t mean he won’t or can’t lose control after that point.

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4 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

BTW, this:

does not say this:

In that WoB Sanderson pointed out that what's happening to Kaladin isn't infused by external Investiture, an Unmade, (like Nan Balat's case), not that depression is a 'mundane neurochemcial thing'. That is your own personal interpretation, which quite frankly isn't very astute. 

Anyway, I disagree that a Lightweaver is needed to 'fix' Kaladin's depression, that doesn't sound like an in-depth resolution but more of a 'patch-up' work. And since it's an aspect verified as 'non-magical', I think it would make a lot more sense if he manages to overcome it in a 'non-magical' way. At least, it would offer better closure for the readership relating to him and his situation.

All I meant by "mundane neurochemcial thing" is that it is non-magical and is a type of depression experienced in the real world, as opposed to something with Investiture or Realmic effects involved the way Balat's issues or Szeth's Voices are.  I also wasnt trying to say a Lightweaver would just "fix" him, just that they might help him find a better balance, or at least be on-hand to help shake him out of it when his struggles start to peak, the way Tien and Shallan both have, and which is implied to be a common sort of trait/role of Lightweavers in general. 

EDIT:

46 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I mean, I don’t know if you were arguing against depression being a neurochemcial thing or it being a mundane neurochemical thing, but I don’t think @Quantus meant to downplay Kaladin’s depression. I think they probably just meant to say that it’s not magically enhanced or driven.

I don’t think that Kaladin has to ‘overcome’ his depression. There’s no such thing as ‘overcoming’ depression. It’s a constant struggle, where some days you have more control, and other days you have very little control. Granted, I assume that, whenever the SA ends, Kaladin will be at a point where he has more control over his depression, but that doesn’t mean he won’t or can’t lose control after that point.


I missed your post on the page break.  That was it exactly, thanks.  The WOB said it was chemical rather than magic, and that was the only meaning intended with my use of "mundane".  I also agree with your assessment that Kaladin will likely never be fully "fixed" or cured or what-have-you of his depression, and I suspect Kaladin has mostly come to that same conclusion based on his conversation with Teft about how becoming Radiant isnt going ot magically make the depression or addiction go away. 

Edited by Quantus
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22 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

To clarify I will list all three theories regarding the "mirroring" and a brief break down on the proponents reasons for them. I also stress I do no prefer nor believe any one over the other, merely stating them for completeness

 

Shallan = Navani - Choosing between two people.

Kaladin = Dalinar - Both commented on their intensity, passion and gruffness. Share deeper connection

Adolin = Gavilar - Both arranged marriage, nobility, clean cut. Share surface connection

 

Shallan = Dalinar - Choosing between two people

Kaladin = Navani - Both express interest, but hold back due to the other party involved (Adolin - Evi). Both share deeper connection with their love interest

Adolin = Evi - Both arranged marriage, with disparate personalities of their love interest

 

Shallan = Navani - Choosing between two people

Kaladin = Gavilar - Now that Kaladin is a radiant, from the outside he is viewed as the better and surer choice, but does not truly understand her

Adolin = Dalinar - Now that he is not a radiant and a prince falling from grace, from the outside he is viewed as the lesser and less desirable choice, but truly does understand her. 

 

If I have mis-represented any of these, please feel free to let me know and I will update/edit the post. But to be clear, to edit the post, you must be the proponent of said argument. I will not edit it if you disagree with a particular argument. For instance the posts say "shares deeper connection". That is the opinion of the proponent of that argument. If you disagree, regardless your reasons, that still does not change that that individual holds that opinion in that argument, so that will not be changed. Thank you. 

Here are my arguments on why I think it is Evi-Dalinar-Navani mirror.

Evi and Dalinar are an arranged marriage. I don't remember Gavilar and Navani being arranged, am I wrong? Dalinar said that he introduced Navani to his brother and she eventually chose Gavilar because she was scared of Dalinar's intensity. Maybe I've missed something. Also, Dalinar marries Evi for a material reason - her Shardplate. Maybe I tweak it too much, but we can say, that Shallan marries Adolin for selfish reasons too - she needs someone to stabilize her multiple personalities in the first place. Her "storms, she loved this man" appears later, so I guess this is a lie to herself.

Also Navani said, that "everybody wanted them (Evi and Dalinar) to get married". Same goes for Shadolin as Jasnah and Navani and even Dalinar sometimes are pushing them to get married. Navani said as well that Evi was kind of too stupid for Dalinar. This is completely true for Adolin as well.

The whole Evi-Dalinar thing also seems very similar to me compared to Adolin and Shallan. Evi tries to change Dalinar, turn him into something he is not, at least not yet. Shallan changes for Adolin willingly, putting on a mask of a "perfect Vorin bride". And when Adolin sees something he doesn't expect from her he says it is weird or wrong - when she is on the frontline or after TC battle.

Shallan's feelings for Kaladin look much more like Dalinar's feelings for Navani, than Kaladin's feelings for Shallan. I can't imagine Kaladin on Dalinar's place "desiring Shallan for his whole life", though Shallan is, for me, absolutely capable of doing that, as she can shove her feelings to Veil and that's it.

All of this becomes much more interesting if we add Gavilar-Jasnah to the table, though... Yeah, I'm crazy about Jasnadin, I'm sorry :D (though, of course, as a part of the journey to Shalladin), but the thread is not about it.

And I'm sorry about an off-topic again, but I just can't leave it like that, when people say, that they believe Kaladin's "revelation" that he never loved Shallan. Yeah, Kaladin's crem about "she only reminds me of Tien" is almost as bad as Veil's "poor taste in men". Sure, he wanted her for 1.5 books, but when she kisses another guy in front of him an enlightenment comes to him "oh, storms, that's it, I just didn't love her!" It's not that I can't reach this vine, it's just green and I don't want to get there. Come on, Kaladin isn't this stupid and self-unaware. There is a difference between what character says and what he thinks. He says it to Syl. He just wants to change topic and not talk about Shallan, he does it at least third time in OB already. So he switches her attention to the stone and the mysterious person Shallan reminds him of. Syl is curious and gets tricked. Then Kaladin starts talking about absolutely unrelated things and that's it. I think I will continue it in another thread, though.

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So, to clarify, this:

19 hours ago, Quantus said:

That being said, since his Depression is a mundane neurochemcial thing, and two separate Lightweavers have been shown to help balance him (with a mention of how Lightweavers historically provided "spiritual sustenance" to the other Orders), absent a world with a proper understanding of neurochemistry and pharmaceuticals I certainly hope he ends up with a Lightweaver for his own sake.

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Meant the same thing as this:

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

All I meant by "mundane neurochemcial thing" is that it is non-magical and is a type of depression experienced in the real world, as opposed to something with Investiture or Realmic effects involved the way Balat's issues or Szeth's Voices are.  I also wasnt trying to say a Lightweaver would just "fix" him, just that they might help him find a better balance, or at least be on-hand to help shake him out of it when his struggles start to peak, the way Tien and Shallan both have, and which is implied to be a common sort of trait/role of Lightweavers in general.

3

Right?

I apologize if I've misunderstood you didn't mention any of the words Investiture, Realmatic, Balat's issues or Szeth's Voices initially and I found it ambiguous that people would misunderstand what you actually meant, especially after noticing you have multiple upvotes on that specific post. 

 

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53 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Here are my arguments on why I think it is Evi-Dalinar-Navani mirror.

Evi and Dalinar are an arranged marriage. I don't remember Gavilar and Navani being arranged, am I wrong? Dalinar said that he introduced Navani to his brother and she eventually chose Gavilar because she was scared of Dalinar's intensity. Maybe I've missed something. Also, Dalinar marries Evi for a material reason - her Shardplate. Maybe I tweak it too much, but we can say, that Shallan marries Adolin for selfish reasons too - she needs someone to stabilize her multiple personalities in the first place. Her "storms, she loved this man" appears later, so I guess this is a lie to herself.

Also Navani said, that "everybody wanted them (Evi and Dalinar) to get married". Same goes for Shadolin as Jasnah and Navani and even Dalinar sometimes are pushing them to get married. Navani said as well that Evi was kind of too stupid for Dalinar. This is completely true for Adolin as well.

The whole Evi-Dalinar thing also seems very similar to me compared to Adolin and Shallan. Evi tries to change Dalinar, turn him into something he is not, at least not yet. Shallan changes for Adolin willingly, putting on a mask of a "perfect Vorin bride". And when Adolin sees something he doesn't expect from her he says it is weird or wrong - when she is on the frontline or after TC battle.

Shallan's feelings for Kaladin look much more like Dalinar's feelings for Navani, than Kaladin's feelings for Shallan. I can't imagine Kaladin on Dalinar's place "desiring Shallan for his whole life", though Shallan is, for me, absolutely capable of doing that, as she can shove her feelings to Veil and that's it.

All of this becomes much more interesting if we add Gavilar-Jasnah to the table, though... Yeah, I'm crazy about Jasnadin, I'm sorry :D (though, of course, as a part of the journey to Shalladin), but the thread is not about it.

And I'm sorry about an off-topic again, but I just can't leave it like that, when people say, that they believe Kaladin's "revelation" that he never loved Shallan. Yeah, Kaladin's crem about "she only reminds me of Tien" is almost as bad as Veil's "poor taste in men". Sure, he wanted her for 1.5 books, but when she kisses another guy in front of him an enlightenment comes to him "oh, storms, that's it, I just didn't love her!" It's not that I can't reach this vine, it's just green and I don't want to get there. Come on, Kaladin isn't this stupid and self-unaware. There is a difference between what character says and what he thinks. He says it to Syl. He just wants to change topic and not talk about Shallan, he does it at least third time in OB already. So he switches her attention to the stone and the mysterious person Shallan reminds him of. Syl is curious and gets tricked. Then Kaladin starts talking about absolutely unrelated things and that's it. I think I will continue it in another thread, though.

Thank you for your post! This is exactly what I was referring to by asking for input in editing the three theories!

So first, regarding Evi and Dalinar being an arranged marriage while Gavilar and Navani are not. My impression was the argument was Navani went with the "better" choice materially in that she would be Queen, instead of betrothed to the younger brother. That she went with the "head" instead of her "heart", but I can see how stating it was an arranged marriage would be a misnomer, so I have no problem correcting/editing the original post and will do so after I finish responding. 

Second, will add this point under the theory that coincides with it.

Third, will add this as well.

Fourth, I think part of the argument in favor of that was that Kaladin was pushing down his feelings for Shallan in favor of Adolin as Dalinar pushes down his feelings for Navani in favor of Gavilar. I will add that, but also include an addendum that that was my understanding of what was said. If more people disagree, I will edit that out. 

Fifth, personally not a fan of Jasnah and Kaladin because of a whole list of reasons that I do not want to digress this post about. So suffice to say, I respect your interest in it, I wish you luck with your theory (I won't be devastated if they do get together because I am sure Brandon will do a wonderful job of it), but personally I do not prescribe to it. 

Sixth, I will not reply to this portion as I do not believe this part was directed at me. 

Thank you again for your response!

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Thank you as well! I just want to clarify a little bit here about this point:

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Fourth, I think part of the argument in favor of that was that Kaladin was pushing down his feelings for Shallan in favor of Adolin as Dalinar pushes down his feelings for Navani in favor of Gavilar. I will add that, but also include an addendum that that was my understanding of what was said. If more people disagree, I will edit that out. 

I didn't mean pushing feelings down, this is a thing all of them do in their way. I meant the whole nature or sense of feelings they have. Kaladin's feelings are soft and tender. He wants to teach her to fly, he admires her personality and ability to smile, he wants to give her what she wants. I love the moment in OB when she was stabbed through the chest and there is this adorable dialogue "Smile! I need you to smile! ... He smiled". I stress it again - he wants to give her something. Whereas Dalinar always had a desire for Navani, so he wanted to take and not to give. We can't quite totally understand Shallan's feelings is this regard, IIRC she never thinks she wants to have Kaladin, but she doesn't also think she wants to give him something. I just wanted to say that Kaladin's feelings definitely can't mirror Dalinar's in my opinion, that's why I think he is not "Dalinar" in this mirror but "Navani".

Edited by Sedside
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1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Here are my arguments on why I think it is Evi-Dalinar-Navani mirror.

Evi and Dalinar are an arranged marriage. I don't remember Gavilar and Navani being arranged, am I wrong? Dalinar said that he introduced Navani to his brother and she eventually chose Gavilar because she was scared of Dalinar's intensity. Maybe I've missed something. Also, Dalinar marries Evi for a material reason - her Shardplate. Maybe I tweak it too much, but we can say, that Shallan marries Adolin for selfish reasons too - she needs someone to stabilize her multiple personalities in the first place. Her "storms, she loved this man" appears later, so I guess this is a lie to herself.

Also Navani said, that "everybody wanted them (Evi and Dalinar) to get married". Same goes for Shadolin as Jasnah and Navani and even Dalinar sometimes are pushing them to get married. Navani said as well that Evi was kind of too stupid for Dalinar. This is completely true for Adolin as well.

The whole Evi-Dalinar thing also seems very similar to me compared to Adolin and Shallan. Evi tries to change Dalinar, turn him into something he is not, at least not yet. Shallan changes for Adolin willingly, putting on a mask of a "perfect Vorin bride". And when Adolin sees something he doesn't expect from her he says it is weird or wrong - when she is on the frontline or after TC battle.

Shallan's feelings for Kaladin look much more like Dalinar's feelings for Navani, than Kaladin's feelings for Shallan. I can't imagine Kaladin on Dalinar's place "desiring Shallan for his whole life", though Shallan is, for me, absolutely capable of doing that, as she can shove her feelings to Veil and that's it.

All of this becomes much more interesting if we add Gavilar-Jasnah to the table, though... Yeah, I'm crazy about Jasnadin, I'm sorry :D (though, of course, as a part of the journey to Shalladin), but the thread is not about it.

And I'm sorry about an off-topic again, but I just can't leave it like that, when people say, that they believe Kaladin's "revelation" that he never loved Shallan. Yeah, Kaladin's crem about "she only reminds me of Tien" is almost as bad as Veil's "poor taste in men". Sure, he wanted her for 1.5 books, but when she kisses another guy in front of him an enlightenment comes to him "oh, storms, that's it, I just didn't love her!" It's not that I can't reach this vine, it's just green and I don't want to get there. Come on, Kaladin isn't this stupid and self-unaware. There is a difference between what character says and what he thinks. He says it to Syl. He just wants to change topic and not talk about Shallan, he does it at least third time in OB already. So he switches her attention to the stone and the mysterious person Shallan reminds him of. Syl is curious and gets tricked. Then Kaladin starts talking about absolutely unrelated things and that's it. I think I will continue it in another thread, though.

I really mostly was on the Gavilar-Navani-Dalinar side, but you make some really good arguments here.

I also very much agree with the last paragraph. It is very much in line in how Kaladin deals with his attraction towards Shallan ever since the chasms - dismissive, even though his real feelings, meaning those that emerge, when he doesn't actively try to supress them, don't reflect that. I personally partly blame lack of self-esteem due to his depression, but I guess another part could be him just trying to do the honorable thing.

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21 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

So, to clarify, this:

Meant the same thing as this:

Right?

I apologize if I've misunderstood you didn't mention any of the words Investiture, Realmatic, Balat's issues or Szeth's Voices initially and I found it ambiguous that people would misunderstand what you actually meant, especially after noticing you have multiple upvotes on that specific post. 

 

Yup, 'Mundane' was just intended as a general term for non-magical, and I thought it would be clear with the context of the WOB which was stating that Balat's issue was magically influences whereas Kaladin's was specifically chemical.  I wasnt trying to in any way demean Kaladin or his his struggles depression, just that its roots were chemical and not magic related, and that absent the sort of tools we as a society tend to use to address such neurochemical imbalances, him getting an effective emotional/social support structure is going to be very helpful to his ongoing mental health.  The Lightweaver mention is simply the pattern that stands out to me, though Im also personally fascinated with Tien, and wish he'd live long enough to become fully Radiant. For Kaladin simply being a part of Bridge Four is also probably very helpful in many ways, especially with folks like Rock and The Lopen around; his commitment to Bridge Four is what literally brought him back from the edge in WoK. 

 

On 1/31/2019 at 2:50 AM, SLNC said:

Just to provide a counter idea:

Since it has been established, that Kaladin suffers from depression and depression often is accompanied by lasting doubts of self-worth. Couldn't it be that he is just telling Syl that to convince himself of it?

In fact, he has been doing the same thing from late WoR, where he told himself how Shallan and Adolin fit. This is basic depressed behaviour. And telling Syl that, is just another extension of that behaviour. Is it reflective of his true feelings/attraction? I don't think so, because his actions throughout OB show otherwise. He's obviously interested in Shallan. He has repeatedly shown worry about her, has shown jealousy and, if we remember how he looked at her during the flight to Kholinar, he is obviously attracted to her.

Yes, he's amazed by Shallan's ability to just ignore, but reducing his attraction to that is unfair in my opinion as he has shown so much more.

I get that the comparison between Tien and Shallan seems obvious, especially because Lightweavers tended to give "spiritual sustenance". But, again, depressed people often find a few people, that just plain make them feel better. The first person Kaladin found, that made him feel better was Tien. And then he found Shallan. Who else should he compare it to than Tien? I think it's a logical consequence, that he did. He had nothing else to compare to. Also, if his depression is "mundane" (I'm sorry, I have a real problem with calling depression mundane, but I don't think you wanted to offend) and not magical, then it would be strange, if it would be "fixed" by some inherent Lightweaver thing, right?

It's always possible that there is more to his attraction than Im giving him credit for, more than just his fascination with her ability to maintain an (outward) happiness.  I mean if nothing else, five pages and untold other threads on the discussion prove that.  It's just that in my current reread where Ive been trying to pay more attention to it, that seems to be what Kaladin always comes back to (in his POV passages). Its one of the big differences between his attraction and Adolin's: Adolin seems (to me at least) to be more genuinely interested in getting to know Shallan and making himself a good match for her, whereas Kaladin seems really focused on that one particular enigma.  And to be honest I far prefer his the scene at the end of OB to be a real moment of growth and self-reflection on Kaladin's part which he's not otherwise very good at), rather than dismissing it as "You're just kidding yourself kid."  That seems more demeaning of his feelings to me, more like it's implying that he's incapable of real introspection.

As far as the Lightweaver bit, there are several instances of strange, common traits among the various orders that are not magic in nature but still shared by the members.  Artistic ability in Lightweavers, the mentions of Skybreakers being able to suss out guilt, etc.  Could be nothing, I just find interesting and would enjoy seeing those sorts of shared (but specifically non-magical) personality traits manifest in the Radiants. For lightweavers it wouldnt have to be anything more an innate optimism and ability to take Joy in the little things of the world, like discovering a new plant or a pretty rock.

At this point Im more looking forward to the possibility that he'll meet somebody that is entirely free and unattached and has nothing standing in his way, just to watch the Radiant Hero be reduced to bumbling, inexperienced teenager.  The idea of Shallan teasing him, of him getting shy and awkward, and trying to reconcile all the incompatible advice he'd get from the likes of Adolin, Rock, The Lopen, etc.  just brings a smile to my face.  At the end of the day I dont want him cast as Lancelot in a Love triangle, I want him to have a Boy-Meets-Girl experience without all these outside forces getting int he way. 

 

 

It honestly never even sort of occurred to me that the term "mundane" would bother anybody, or really be taken as anything other than non-magical in this fantasy context, but that's at least two people that read it that way, so Ill just retire the term; Non-magical is just as easy and more specific.  Im sorry to any whom I offended. 

Edited by Quantus
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22 hours ago, SLNC said:

I really mostly was on the Gavilar-Navani-Dalinar side, but you make some really good arguments here.

I also very much agree with the last paragraph. It is very much in line in how Kaladin deals with his attraction towards Shallan ever since the chasms - dismissive, even though his real feelings, meaning those that emerge, when he doesn't actively try to supress them, don't reflect that. I personally partly blame lack of self-esteem due to his depression, but I guess another part could be him just trying to do the honorable thing.

Thank you!

I totally agree on his behaviour being mix of the two things you mentioned. I think, he was doing the right thing with not trying to pursue her while she was betrothed. I actually didn't want him to talk to her in Shadesmar when Syl pushed him to, but whatever... :) And regarding his lack of self-esteem, I was absolutely struck on my reread by his thoughts while imprisonment and on his homecoming. In prison he thought that Bridge Four and Dalinar secretly despise him and want to get rid of him. On his homecoming he was worried about how he was going to face his parents and tell them he failed to save Tien. His parents! He thought that they won't be happy to see their own son who went to war 5 years ago. Really. What to say about Shallan, who keeps mocking him constantly and flirting with the other guy in front of him?

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On 31.1.2019 at 8:41 PM, Quantus said:

And to be honest I far prefer his the scene at the end of OB to be a real moment of growth and self-reflection on Kaladin's part which he's not otherwise very good at), rather than dismissing it as "You're just kidding yourself kid."  That seems more demeaning of his feelings to me, more like it's implying that he's incapable of real introspection.

Hmm, yeah I guess what you mean, but still. His condition is his condition and his behaviour is very reminiscient of usual depressed human behaviour. I don't think it is really demeaning towards his ability of being introspective, since he obviously suffers from a mental condition. It is normal that this impairs him.

On 31.1.2019 at 8:41 PM, Quantus said:

Its one of the big differences between his attraction and Adolin's: Adolin seems (to me at least) to be more genuinely interested in getting to know Shallan and making himself a good match for her, whereas Kaladin seems really focused on that one particular enigma. 

No, I disagree.

Kaladin very much is interested in her in different ways. At least his observation of her during the flight to Kholinar very much suggests that, more than Adolin ever shows. It honestly is very sexual writing for Sanderson.

Edited by SLNC
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On 2/1/2019 at 5:27 PM, SLNC said:

Hmm, yeah I guess what you mean, but still. His condition is his condition and his behaviour is very reminiscient of usual depressed human behaviour. I don't think it is really demeaning towards his ability of being introspective, since he obviously suffers from a mental condition. It is normal that this impairs him.

As one who suffers from depression, I agree, and frankly I’m glad Sanderson has some real life mental issues in his story rather than just magical, like Adien, Dalinar, Szeth, and Nan Balat. Kaladin is really the only one I know about, and that’s why I connect with him so well. 

I recognized parallels between Dalinar/Navani/Gavilar and Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin in the scene where Kaladin first met Shallan in WoR, the way Shallan described Kaladin as intense, just like Navani describes Dalinar as intense. I love stuff like that, and I’m glad Sanderson is doing it. And the Evi/Dalinar/Navani triangle makes sense too. Sadly, it’s going to take a couple books to really explain what kind of history is repeating itself. 

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On 12/19/2017 at 0:19 PM, MonsterMetroid said:

And Lastly the marriage felt really rushed, it felt hasty and we didn't even get to see it! Maybe I'm reading too much into this but my gut tells me there is something there.

 

I think it's just going to be in book 4 (at least, I hope).

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7 hours ago, Turin Turambar said:

I think it's just going to be in book 4 (at least, I hope).

My understanding (possible spoilers if you've been avoiding all the book four news) is that there will be a one-year time-skip or thereabouts at the start of book four, which makes any continuation from OB impossible to do directly.  You can still hope for a flashback scene, though, if you want.

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where did you here that? I try to follow spoilers, but it's hard to find accurate/useful information without spending days upon days searching

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2 hours ago, Turin Turambar said:

where did you here that? I try to follow spoilers, but it's hard to find accurate/useful information without spending days upon days searching

It's confirmed. 

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Mrrobot112

Eshonai is flashback character [for Stormlight Four], but she is dead in the present. So...who will be main protagonists in the main timeline? Hope for Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin will be as important as they were in first three books)

Brandon Sanderson

Eshonai will still be the flashback character, and Venli will take a larger role to provide counterpart past/present. But, as always, you will find a focus on all five protagonists from this sequence. (I view them as Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan, Eshonai/Venli, Szeth.)

Mrrobot112

I heard it would be one year time gap (in world) between books 3 and 4, which make me think about structure of the book. Does it mean, something important could happen during this year, and then it will be explained in some form(maybe another set of flashbacks)? If so, it's hard for me to visualize the book structure: main timeline, Eshonai's flashbacks and another set of flashbacks for past year? Seems like a mess. Or it will be like Mistborn era 1 time gaps between each book? Main narrative just continues without getting stuck with one-year break, and nothing important happens off-screen. It will be nice to get some qualification from you, if possible. Cause now I'm a bit confused.

Brandon Sanderson

Right now, I've got it like Mistborn--we're checking back in a year, as I need to give some things time to progress in world. We'll see when I actually write it, though.

Mrrobot112

Thanks! But please, don't do things like Alien 3-movie, if you know what I mean. It's when they did a time gap between two movies and at the beginning of the new movie they told you that your favorite character died during the time gap, deal with it. This is the worst thing ever and a reason I'm always a bit skeptical about time gaps in fiction. Just hate when things like that happen off-screen. Just don't do it with your books, please. At least can you promise you wouldn't? And what do you think about this trope in general?

Brandon Sanderson

I actually want to write an essay about that very trope (I call it the Newt Principle.) You might see it on my website at some point.

Things will happen during the gap, I'm afraid. You might like it, you might not, but I do plan some of the flashbacks in the second half to help cover this time--so you'll see it eventually. If it helps, I'm pretty sure I understand the dangers of the Newt Principle, and how to not fall into that trap.

General Reddit 2018 (Jan. 5, 2018)

 

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My another 2 cents to this thread. Shallan names the main reason for Adolin as "he knows her". But she also says somewhere in OB, that she can't even mock Adolin, because she feels bad about it. So she has to restrain herself from mocking him. It's quite the same as what she was doing and talking about in her very first chapter, when Captain Tozbek asked her not to hold her tongue, and she said that she was raised this way that lady has to hold her tongue. So with Adolin she feels like she has to do it again, and it's not who she is. She doesn't like to hold her tongue. I hope she will get fed up with this eventually.

As well, she and Adolin never had any real problems, struggle or fight or whatever. It was all along rainbows and sunshine, the only problem was the "no mating" stuff. Multiple personas? Ah, that's all right, no worries. Killed Sadeas in the dark corridor stabbing him through the eye? Good job, sweetheart, I don't care. Sweet syrup, no principles, let's mate asap.

And I would also like to add that the whole idea of an arranged marriage is a pure illustration of "destination before journey" thing. And no, I don't care about other books and author's love for arranged marriages, I read this book, I take the philosophy it declares and try to analyze it and apply it to the text.

I also believe that Adolin has been violating all of the three main KR Ideals and I'm in the process of writing a big analysis about it, dunno though, if I will post it on this forum, so many people adore Adolin so much, I've got no idea why, maybe because Sanderson is a genious and has written him so well. I like him as a character, but I don't know why people love him as a person. I also love Sadeas as a character, to me he was a very high quality villain, but it doesn't mean I like him as a person, of course.

Actually, the fact that so many people love Adolin, want him to revive Maya and become KR, wish luck to Shadolin, and don't like Shalladin and think it's over, quite inspires me. It raises the probability of the opposite events to happen, because they will still be unexpected for the majority of readers.

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2 hours ago, Sedside said:

I also believe that Adolin has been violating all of the three main KR Ideals and I'm in the process of writing a big analysis about it, dunno though, if I will post it on this forum, so many people adore Adolin so much, I've got no idea why, maybe because Sanderson is a genious and has written him so well.

My 2 cents on that: Post it anyway. I do agree though, that the Adolin fixation in, at least, all character discussions is annoying, but too many voices against it have already been silenced.

Edited by SLNC
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1 minute ago, SLNC said:

My 2 cents on that: Post it anyway. I do agree though, that the Adolin fixation in, at least, all character discussions is annoying, but enough voices against it have already been silenced.

Yeah, I think I will do it, but it is going to take a long, because I am going to support it with plenty of quotes, so I have to dig through all Adolin PoVs and a fair amount of other characters' PoVs.

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Sedside, please post it! That sounds like a lovely thread.

51 minutes ago, SLNC said:

My 2 cents on that: Post it anyway. I do agree though, that the Adolin fixation in, at least, all character discussions is annoying, but too many voices against it have already been silenced.

I disagree with the notion that people are being silenced for disliking Adolin. It is very understandable that if you don't love Adolin, seeing a lot of love for Adolin gets old fast. That makes sense. But there's also a lot of people who do really like Adolin (I think there was an early 2018 poll that had about 85% of people on the Shard either liked or loved Adolin), and character discussion has a lot of feeling involved when reading characters. Something one may find obvious might be something others profoundly disagree with because they had different impressions of the character during their read. This is fine! Disagreement is not being silenced. Disagreement is allowed here on this site!

So just to be clear, these posts here are great, and we do need to be respectful of other viewpoints. People who like Adolin do need to accept and respect that others don't, and people who don't like Adolin need to accept and respect that many do like Adolin. For example people saying: "this person is an idiot because they love/hate Adolin" isn't good.

It is fine in regards to character discussion to not be able to change people's minds regarding things. These topics allow people to have greater understanding of other perspectives, but a lot of character stuff will just come down to how well the writing of that character worked for you.

Anyway, long story short, please do finish and post your topic, Sedside! I think your viewpoint is certainly possible that there can be some unexpected things occurring with these character arcs.

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3 hours ago, Sedside said:

I also believe that Adolin has been violating all of the three main KR Ideals

I assume your referring to the first ideal here. 

Life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination. 

The first ideal is not as presented by Teft to Kaladin. It is open to interpretation to the point that it is almost meaningless (to clarify it is very much meaningful to each Radiant, but in a different way). If this weren't the case there would be no Nale or Malata as Radiants. 

If you think he violates the first oath in the way Kaladin lives it that's fine, but that doesn't mean anything. See the following WoB. 

Quote

AndrewHB (paraphrased)

Is Niccolò Machiavelli's political theory--the ends justify the means--incompatible with the Knights Radiant's First Oath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Although many of the Orders of Knights Radiant would find Machiavelli's theory, that the ends justify the means, incompatible with additional oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. (Brandon said that the Skybreakers are where a Machiavellian could find a home.)

Footnote: A follow up question was asked in the signing line.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

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15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I assume your referring to the first ideal here. 

Life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination. 

The first ideal is not as presented by Teft to Kaladin. It is open to interpretation to the point that it is almost meaningless (to clarify it is very much meaningful to each Radiant, but in a different way). If this weren't the case there would be no Nale or Malata as Radiants. 

If you think he violates the first oath in the way Kaladin lives it that's fine, but that doesn't mean anything. See the following WoB. 

 

So you stated that it is meaningful to each Radiant in a different way and that potentially Kaladin could live it one way that could view Adolin's actions as violating it, while an elsecaller could live it a different way and view Adolin's actions as not violating it. Genuine question, do you feel if hypothetically Adolin's actions violate the first oath in the way Lift (an edgedancer) lives it, would that preclude him from becoming an edgedancer? Or could another edgedancer potentially live the first oath a different way from Lift, so then that view on the first oath wouldn't be violated by Adolin's actions?

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So you stated that it is meaningful to each Radiant in a different way and that potentially Kaladin could live it one way that could view Adolin's actions as violating it, while an elsecaller could live it a different way and view Adolin's actions as not violating it. Genuine question, do you feel if hypothetically Adolin's actions violate the first oath in the way Lift (an edgedancer) lives it, would that preclude him from becoming an edgedancer? Or could another edgedancer potentially live the first oath a different way from Lift, so then that view on the first oath wouldn't be violated by Adolin's actions?

I don't really have a dog in the race on Adolin becoming a Radiant or not. If it happens, cool, if not, cool. But in terms of the oath interpretation, I don't even necessarily think it's something that would come down to an Order's interpretation. I think it really might just be between the Radiant and their spren. I think the higher spren really are more individual than that. Sure, within an Order, you're going to share some ideology and ways of thinking, but beyond broad strokes, I bet each Honorspren has their own idea of what it means to be a Windrunner and each Cultivationspren has their own idea what it means to be an Edgedancer, so on and so forth. It's hard to know for sure right now, because we haven't really gotten to interact with multiple spren from within the same order, but I think we'll definitely see more of it come Book 4, from the Windrunners certainly, but hopefully from some other Orders too.

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10 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

I don't really have a dog in the race on Adolin becoming a Radiant or not. If it happens, cool, if not, cool. But in terms of the oath interpretation, I don't even necessarily think it's something that would come down to an Order's interpretation. I think it really might just be between the Radiant and their spren. I think the higher spren really are more individual than that. Sure, within an Order, you're going to share some ideology and ways of thinking, but beyond broad strokes, I bet each Honorspren has their own idea of what it means to be a Windrunner and each Cultivationspren has their own idea what it means to be an Edgedancer, so on and so forth. It's hard to know for sure right now, because we haven't really gotten to interact with multiple spren from within the same order, but I think we'll definitely see more of it come Book 4, from the Windrunners certainly, but hopefully from some other Orders too.

Interesting. I am inclined to agree. Was just checking I understood what Calderis was saying correctly. The WoB regarding Skybreakers disagreeing with each other would potentially support that. I can post it for reference if you like. 

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@Pathfinder

Yes, whether an oath is being kept is between the spren and the Radiant. 

Two members of the same order can interpret an oath differently. 

Spoilered for length, followed by just the relevant portion. 

Spoiler

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

Quote

whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

 

Edited by Calderis
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