theory [OB] Adolin and Shallan will not last

[StrikerEZ]

I'm gonna have to side with @Calderis here. I definitely do not think that there can ever be an objective answer to any questions involving relationships. Brandon has talked a lot about how he outlines the plots of his books, but he has also said that he tends to discovery write his characters. This usually ends up with him altering the plot to match the characters' personalities, no matter how far it drifts from the original outline. And I would be more than happy to have discussions about these relationships, but sadly that is not what these threads tend to become. They usually end up becoming arguments, because, as @Dreamstorm has said, relationships can be very subjective. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Ookla the StrooklaEZ

[Dreamstorm]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

I definitely do not think that there can ever be an objective answer to any questions involving relationships. Brandon has talked a lot abour how he outlines the plots of his books a lot, but he has also said that he tends to discovery write his characters. This usually ends up with him altering the plot to match the characters' personalities, no matter how far it drifts from the original outline.

While I don't contend that characters can evolve as they are written, as some point an author has to settle on how they are plotting the book, and that means your interpersonal relationships must also become settled because how those relationships fit into the plot is integral to a good book.  Perhaps this is actually the root of the Shalladin v. Shadolin debate (which I didn't realize); I didn't think it would ever be in contention that Brandon himself doesn't know the outcome!  Perhaps when Shadolin fans ignore the (IMO blatant) foreshadowing, they just believe that it doesn't matter because Brandon himself has no idea where the storyline is leading.  For me, it's very poor craftsmanship to not know where your story is going to the extent you can't properly insert or are forced to ignore earlier foreshadowing, and I have seen just the opposite level of craftsmanship from Brandon in other books.  But the perspective that there is no objective answer to Shalladin/Shadolin (because Brandon himself has no clue what's going to happen) is very enlightening as to why this question gets so heated.

[StrikerEZ]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

While I don't contend that characters can evolve as they are written, as some point an author has to settle on how they are plotting the book, and that means your interpersonal relationships must also become settled because how those relationships fit into the plot is integral to a good book.  Perhaps this is actually the root of the Shalladin v. Shadolin debate (which I didn't realize); I didn't think it would ever be in contention that Brandon himself doesn't know the outcome!  Perhaps when Shadolin fans ignore the (IMO blatant) foreshadowing, they just believe that it doesn't matter because Brandon himself has no idea where the storyline is leading.  For me, it's very poor craftsmanship to not know where your story is going to the extent you can't properly insert or are forced to ignore earlier foreshadowing, and I have seen just the opposite level of craftsmanship from Brandon in other books.  But the perspective that there is no objective answer to Shalladin/Shadolin (because Brandon himself has no clue what's going to happen) is very enlightening as to why this question gets so heated.

Eh, I think you misunderstood my point. I don't think that Brandon has no idea what he's doing with the relationship, I was just arguing against the idea you proposed that characters and relationships are planned from the very start to the very minute details (it's  interesting to note that Brandon had never planned for Adolin to be as important as he is, but look at him now). 

The reason I don't like Shalladin is because the "obvious foreshadowing" you mentioned doesn't seem like foreshadowing for their future relationship to me but more as a way to show how Shallan was confused as to who she really wanted, and when she finally thought about it she decided she wanted Adolin. 

We're gonna have to agree to disagree here, because I don't see any chance of Shalladin happening and I really want to see Shadolin go through relationship struggles and come out stronger for it while you want Shadolin to fail and for Shalladin, the more stereotypical relationship (main female lead and main male lead get together after a rocky start to the relationship), to actually work out, which doesn't even seem likely anymore, considering Kal has decided that he didn't like her anyway. I will admit, there are definitely parallels between this love triangle and the one between Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar, but that doesn't mean they both have to end the same way. 

[Prelude]

Well with Andolin seeing Shallan as “becoming other people” and not realizing Veil/Radiant are just suppressed aspects of who she truly is. And Shallan wearing a mask of the perfect Vorin bride for Andolin. Yeah I’d say they are heading towards relationship problems. How long can it last when you don’t even know the other person. 

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

Eh, I think you misunderstood my point. I don't think that Brandon has no idea what he's doing with the relationship, I was just arguing against the idea you proposed that characters and relationships are planned from the very start to the very minute details (it's  interesting to note that Brandon had never planned for Adolin to be as important as he is, but look at him now). 

My prior posts were responding to the posters who said there was no point in debating Shalladin vs Shadolin since there was no objective answer (objective answer = Brandon knows the plan for the resolution.) You said you agreed with those posters so I assumed you also thought Brandon doesn’t know where he is headed with the resolution, but I didn’t mean to catch you up in that opinion if you don’t actually agree with it (at least with respect to Shalladin/Shadolin.) As far as the more general point, do I think very minute detail from the very start is planned out for interpersonal relationships (romantic and otherwise)? No. Do I think major relationships (especially for our main characters) are plotted in advance and developed with a specific objective in mind? Absolutely, though I agree the objective can morph based on how the story develops up to a certain point of no return. (Search Marasi in Arcanum for WoB’s on potential morphing; it didn’t happen and Brandon stuck to his original outline, but it could have prior to SoS. After SoS it seems clear he felt the point of no return was passed, and I felt that way as a reader.) Do I think we as readers can determine that objective by reading between the lines? Most absolutely. And piecing that stuff together is one of my favorite part of the books. 

We can of course agree to disagree about where it’s all headed, but I don’t look at it from a perspective of what I want (I want Kadolin please and thank you very much if my desires are being taken into account), but in terms of where the author is heading. And just to retie this to the above, since I am certain Brandon knows where he’s heading here, we can parse out his objective by a close read at the text - which is how I form my Shalladin opinion.

[Guest]

Regarding the 'love triangle', its resolution and interpersonal relationships not being part of the outline:

We have several WoB, that contradict this.

Quote

The romantic angle between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin was tweaked as I more and more referenced the idea that two different personalities of Shallan's were in love with two different people. IE--moving it further away from a love triangle, and instead showing more clearly that that Shallan was splitting further into multiple people, with different life goals.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/7g4bvv/oathbringer_we_are_the_oathbringer_beta_reader/dqhrm3a/

While there were tweaks made, this shows, that it was not meant as being a seperate storyline, but rather directly interwoven into Shallan's character arc, which in turn made a big part of the book. And that the romantic angle was always planned, since...

Quote

Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren…

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-8/

This annotation shows, that he actually has a plan for his characters and their relationships to each other. And that the Shallan we see atm is far from being the one Brandon sees as her actual nature.

And finally, this one:

Quote

Questioner

Where did the idea to split The Way of Kings and to make it take place in multiple places come from?

Brandon Sanderson

The Way of Kings taking place with the different timelines? So Way of Kings I wrote, the very first version of it--in its contemporary form, I wrote the first book about Dalinar when I was a teenager--but the very first book called The Way of Kings I wrote in 2002 and I tried to cram way too much into that book. The big failing of that book was I tried to do everyone's story at once. And so when I re-wrote it in 2009, or whenever it was, I decided I would take the characters and spread them out across the 10 book series and I would focus on a certain set of them early on and then transition into other ones. But in order to maintain some of the complexity I like in my books, particularly big epic fantasies, I added in the flashback sequence, one per character per book as a means to adding some depth and complexity but using it to build up a character you already knew, rather than doing someone completely different. And so this kind of allowed me to tell the story the way I wanted to, by doing-- That did mean I still had to have two separate timelines because I needed to do Shallan and I needed to do Kaladin, 'cause I knew they were going to be important, interacting together for the next few books. Which did put me in two different places but that was much better than the six different places the original had. And it's just because I like complexity, I like a book that everything comes together at once.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41-firefight-release-party/#e7080

He always has a plan, even if some discovery writing is part of his characters, as in the tweaks he made to the romantic angle.

I don't believe this argument to be completely subjective, but @Dreamstorm already put this better, so I won't rehash everything they said.

[Ailvara]

On 19.12.2017 at 11:18 PM, Humming said:

I think that's the main excuse to not to ship her with Kaladin, that they don't like 2 main characters together. Its easier than admitting that Kaladin and Shallan had more undergoing chemistry in 2 scenes than Adolin and Shallan admiring each other's bodies the rest of the books.

Having two main characters together only because they're main is bad. Not having them together only because they're main is worse. It simply shouldn't matter. Why would a love interest be a secondary character by definition?

And the trope with two characters starting hating each other - the way it usually works is that the animosity serves as a tension creator right until the two characters suddenly realise they're madly in love with each other. Shallan and Kaladin having a pretty long period of respect and friendship in between is more a subversion of the trope than anything else.

On 19.12.2017 at 10:35 PM, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

I do agree a divorce storyline would be very interesting to read (especially since Brandon's never done one before), and I'm not arguing on that point. I just don't buy that Shallan and Adolin won't work out. I've always really liked them as a couple, far more than Shallan and Kaladin. Shallan/Kaladin felt way too clichéd for me, so it just felt off (especially for a Sanderson book). And I think that Adolin is exactly what Shallan needs right now. She needs someone who isn't gonna praise her for her issues. Kaladin literally loves the fact that Shallan is able to hide away her problems, which actually is a terrible thing for Shallan right now. If they got together, it wouldn't just lead to a very toxic relationship where they each love the other person's mental issues, not the person themself. 

1

I don't know if I agree, but I don't disagree on this: Adolin is what Shallan needs right now (or she thinks so at least). I can't help but think that the real "person of flaring passion" Shallan will be bored with him in the long run after she reintegrates and solves her issues.

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Dreamstorm I disagree. It's not the same thing. Realmatic issues and other mechanical issues you can look at the evidence and find an answer. 

 

You can find meta-evidence sometimes (spotting patterns for the way the author develops relationships, WoB on the triangle resembling another one). More often, you can find evidence to supporting arguments - for example, to the fact that only 1/3 of Shallan is making the decision to get married. Once you get enough of these, the relationship theory can be proved as well as any other kind (which is, never with 100% certainty).

6 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

A point- no one is ever going to convince anyone about relationships. It's entirely  subjective, and based on opinions. To each their own opinions. But, bashing other opinions isnt going to change anything. Especially because the books aren't clear cut, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue of contention! 

4

Who should end up with who is subjective, who will end up with who is not.

6 hours ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

I'm gonna have to side with @Calderis here. I definitely do not think that there can ever be an objective answer to any questions involving relationships. Brandon has talked a lot about how he outlines the plots of his books, but he has also said that he tends to discovery write his characters. This usually ends up with him altering the plot to match the characters' personalities, no matter how far it drifts from the original outline. And I would be more than happy to have discussions about these relationships, but sadly that is not what these threads tend to become. They usually end up becoming arguments, because, as @Dreamstorm has said, relationships can be very subjective. 

True, but he makes the alterations early. He said he writes a few chapters to discovery his characters, then tweaks the outline accordingly, then writes again. This is why there were different characters in place of Kaladin and Shallan at first, but what we have now is planned.

5 hours ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

The reason I don't like Shalladin is because the "obvious foreshadowing" you mentioned doesn't seem like foreshadowing for their future relationship to me but more as a way to show how Shallan was confused as to who she really wanted

1

The foreshadowing we mean aren't primarily the scenes where they interact, think about each other or seem to have connection etc. It's about things that are tinier or even more meta and continue all until the end of OB. Shallan sitting when talking to Adolin and standing seeing Kaladin (tied to Wit's advice). Sapphire dress for the wedding. Pattern getting pulled out of her grip. Shallan essentially living Tyn's black scenario. Stuff like this. 

Quote

She sank into the beads, which rolled against her skin, overwhelming her senses with thoughts of trees and rocks. She fought the sensations, struggling to keep herself from thrashing too much. She clung to Adolin, but Pattern's hand was pulled from her grip. (OB, Ch. 110, A Million Stars)

 

Quote

But here’s the thing. The lies we tell, the dreams we create, they’re not real. We can’t let them be real. This might be the hardest lesson you have to learn.” [Tyn] turned to Shallan, her expression having gone hard, all sense of relaxed playfulness gone. “When a good con woman dies, it’s usually because she starts believing her own lies. She finds something good and wants it to continue. She keeps it going, thinking she can juggle it. One day more, she tells herself. One day more, and then… (WoR, Ch. 34, Blossoms and Cake)

1

 

5 hours ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

Shallan was confused as to who she really wanted, and when she finally thought about it she decided she wanted Adolin. 

Shallan-part of her decides she wanted Adolin. Veil and Radiant are "put in line" but not exactly happy. So what happens once she reintegrates - which she has to do? 

Quote

She wanted to shrink from it.
- Mmm, - Pattern said. -This is a good you, Shallan.
A good me. She breathed out.
- We're decided upon this, - Shallan said.
- This is good, Shallan.
- A celebration, - Veil said. - A celebration of you.
- It’s okay for me to enjoy this, - Shallan said, as if discovering something precious. - Its all right to celebrate. Even if things are terrible in the world, Its all right.
She smiled.
I deserve this.
It was all right to be happy. (OB, Ch. 122, A Debt Repaid)

2

The last bit is in bold to highlight how this differs (again) from what Wit has told her ("it's alright to hurt").

We didn't exactly spend 60 pages of ASK thread whining about which pair would have prettier babies. There's a ton of stuff, plotlines and character development that is tied to this, for better or for worse. 

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

The last bit is in bold to highlight how this differs (again) from what Wit has told her ("it's alright to hurt").

But it doesn't differ. It's alright to hurt. It's alright to be happy. It's alright to feel. 

He told her that it was alright to hurt, but that she didn't have to accept that she deserved that pain. You think for a second Wit would have forbade her some happiness? Seriously? 

[Ailvara]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

But it doesn't differ. It's alright to hurt. It's alright to be happy. It's alright to feel. 

He told her that it was alright to hurt, but that she didn't have to accept that she deserved that pain. You think for a second Wit would have forbade her some happiness? Seriously? 

It doesn't contradict, but it's a contrast. She can be happy, but first she needs to deal with her hurting for it to be true. For now she is happy partly because she continues to keep things in the back of her head. She took a shortcut which can backfire sooner or later. 

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

It doesn't contradict, but it's a contrast. She can be happy, but first she needs to deal with her hurting for it to be true. For now she is happy partly because she continues to keep things in the back of her head. She took a shortcut which can backfire sooner or later. 

Yeah, and I think that's ascribing meaning to Wit's words which was never there. She hasn't learned that lesson yet. She still hiding from her pain, but she's made steps in the right direction. 

Allowing herself to be happy is a positive in itself.

Edit: I'm fairly sure that over the course of the series Shallan has been in some varying degree if anxious, terrified, frantic, panic, hurried, exhilarated... 

I think the closest we've ever seen Shallan to happy is comfortable. 

So yeah, I think that's a pretty major step. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Calderis

[TheWarriorPoet]

Hi,

Since this post is mainly based on Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin, and question here is who will get the girl. 

Kaladin in OB had said "I don't think i loved her, Syl. I felt .... something. A lightening of my burden when i was near her. She reminds me of someone."

After that the story indicates he was talking about Tien, his brother. So in my opinion Kal and Shallan will at most share a  close friend or brother-sister bond and not a romantic one. So this should solve the problem of a love triangle between these three.

As for adolin's future with shallan, i think it is shown to hasten the process of Adolin becoming a KR since his wedding with shallan will speed up things just like it did for bridge four.

TWP

[PhineasGage]

So I wasn't trying to cause an argument here but this is my take:

1) BS has an end goal for his story

2) BS uses characters to tell that story

3) For SA in particular, the journey matters more than the destination (eg we could assume that they will defeat Odium by the end of book 10)

4) The characters must have relationships with each other to have the story told

5) In order for the story as a whole to work, there are specific roles/relationships that have to be filled.

6) Therefore those relationships and roles are planned - even if we can't see them now they are being hinted at (see Mistborn foreshadowing)

7) We can analyse the evidence for the relationships without having a preference for one ship or another and use said evidence to predict the outcomes - same as any other theory crafting.

8) I believe that BS is a good author and is not leaving in foreshadowing ideas by mistake. (Eg Shallan wondering if she'd ever been seen naked and shivering in the "wind's kiss" in OB). He could use other words/descriptions and chooses not to.

As a result, I asked for evidence. I don't much care about personal preferences - if someone just likes the idea of Shadolin that is fine, but I cannot see it in the text. I want to know if I've missed it. We have reams of foreshadowing for Shalladin - and much less for Shadolin. Being told "you are reading too much into it" or "I just like Shadolin better" isn't an argument that can be argued against. It won't make people sway to another side. 

Arguments against Shalladin aren't often helpful either. Better arguments are for Shadolin - but until I see the evidence that Adolin is good for Shallan I'm going to keep asking for it. Her being happy at the end of OB may be a good sign for Shadolin - but it is only one instance against many moments that seem to point towards Shalladin (her honesty with Kaladin in WoR, her pushing her feelings onto Veil in OB, her preferring storms/rain to sunlight in OB, her preference for chasmfiends over whitespines, Kaladin being branded with shash - Shallan's namesake number, etc). Most Shadolin arguments seem to boil down to "I just like it better" and whilst that is a valid opinion, it doesn't help me see it because I got to Shalladin because of the foreshadowing evidence in the first place.

 

As a side issue, I find it strange that people are against the MCs getting together. I mean if there is a romantic arc between Shallan and Kaladin it will likely enhance their story, not reduce it - they aren't MCs because of their relationships, but if their relationship helps drive the story doesn't it make more sense for them both to be important protagonists in their own right? I'd rather Shallan was an MC in her own right (which she is) than simply relegated to being a side character because she is a romantic interest. Perhaps I've read different books but most of the romantic interests in the books I've read are important side characters - not the MCs. I'm particularly thinking of Jane Austen's characters because Shallan is based on women in that society. Mr Darcy is definitely not a MC for example - we see more from Lizzy's family and Mr Collins than we do of Mr Darcy. He isn't even the only "love interest" in Lizzy's story - Wickham is there first. This is even more true in Persuasion where Captain Wentworth is absent for a surprising amount of the story - his role is often limited to Anne's thoughts alone and it isn't even completely clear if he still loves her/has forgiven her until quite near the end.

Spoilers for His Dark Materials Trilogy:

Spoiler

Does anyone have a problem with Will and Lyra in these books? They are both MCs but it works just fine.

Expanse novels spoliers - (although if you've seen the first 2 seasons you;'re covered)

Spoiler

Naomi and Holden are both MCs - is that bad?

I just think it is strange that people find MCs getting together a bad thing - I mean as soon as a PoV character has a love interest, that person inevitably gets more screentime anyway. 

[TheWarriorPoet]

2 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

As a side issue, I find it strange that people are against the MCs getting together. I mean if there is a romantic arc between Shallan and Kaladin it will likely enhance their story, not reduce it - they aren't MCs because of their relationships, but if their relationship helps drive the story doesn't it make more sense for them both to be important protagonists in their own right?

Agree with you here, i don't think brandon is against this. We have seen this in OB already, two heralds Taln and Ash are clearly in a relationship so if two heralds can be in a relationship then why not 2 KR's.

[Steeldancer]

2 hours ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

Agree with you here, i don't think brandon is against this. We have seen this in OB already, two heralds Taln and Ash are clearly in a relationship so if two heralds can be in a relationship then why not 2 KR's.

Wait wait wait. You're wrong. Ash doesn't get Taln. I do. This, this is VERY clear cut. Taln is mine. 

[TheWarriorPoet]

12 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Wait wait wait. You're wrong. Ash doesn't get Taln. I do. This, this is VERY clear cut. Taln is mine.

Hahaha, ok so i get to keep Ash then

[Dreamstorm]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

Edit: I'm fairly sure that over the course of the series Shallan has been in some varying degree if anxious, terrified, frantic, panic, hurried, exhilarated... 

I think the closest we've ever seen Shallan to happy is comfortable. 

So yeah, I think that's a pretty major step. 

I’d argue this is a quite happy Shallan in the quote below. The exact word she uses is “satisfied” which is a synonym for “happy”, so it’s a matter of semantics to say it’s a drastically different feeling. I’d argue that this Shallan here - immersed in her scholarship, studying beside her idol and discovering the secrets of her fantastic new spren bond - sounds a lot more truly happy than the stilted personaShallan “happy” we see at the end of OB. (Her refusal to accept her third truth - killing her mother - is hard on her and seems to be the catalyst for the backslide we see throughout OB.) Of course it all goes to Damnation immediately after this moment if we want to look for patterns of what happens to Shallan after her moments of happiness....

Quote

She stood up, gathering her sketchbook and flipping through her pictures of the santhid, including several drawn from the memory of her dip in the ocean. She smiled at that, recalling how she’d climbed back up on deck, dripping wet and grinning. The sailors had all obviously thought her mad.

Now she was sailing toward a city on the edge of the world, betrothed to a powerful Alethi prince, and was free to just learn. She was seeing incredible new sights, sketching them during the days, then reading through piles of books in the nights.

She had stumbled into the perfect life, and it was everything she’d wished for. (WoR, Ch. 6, Terrible Destruction)

On another note, there is a strong theme throughout the series that in order to have true happiness/peace with yourself you have to confront and accept your pain. We see this most dramatically (and beautifully) with Dalinar and his rejection of Odium outside Thaylen City, but we see little moments of this from Dalinar at the Tower where he drops his shame at what he has become and finds peace and again when he’s fighting Szeth in WoR and accepts he could not have saved Gavilar. Kaladin not accepting his pain (and instead wallowing in it) seems to be part of why he can’t say the 4th ideal, though this is of course yet to be seen. Shallan on the other hand, while she may say she is happy, hasn’t actually accepted her pain; it’s still shunted to alters that she refuses to acknowledge are part of her. (There’s a WoB that Shallan and her alters are one in the spiritual realm is you doubt her alters are part of her.) As such, it is a false happiness and does not epitomize the illusion Wit showed her - Shallan gritting her teeth, accepting her painful memories, forgiving herself and still being the woman who is standing up. 

Quote

“No different,” Shallan said, tiring of this game. She gave the second illusion the same memories. Father. Helaran. Failing Jasnah. Everything.

The illusory Shallan stiffened. Then set her jaw and stood there.

“Yes, I see,” Wit said, strolling up to her. “No different.”

“What are you doing to my illusions?” Shallan snapped.

“Nothing. They’re the same in every detail.”

“Of course they’re not,” Shallan said, tapping the illusion, feeling it. A sense pulsed through her from it, memories and pain. And … and something smothering them …

Forgiveness. For herself.

She gasped, pulling her finger back as if it had been bitten. “It’s terrible,” Wit said, stepping up beside her, “to have been hurt. It’s unfair, and awful, and horrid. But Shallan … it’s okay to live on.”

She shook her head.

“Your other minds take over,” he whispered, “because they look so much more appealing. You’ll never control them until you’re confident in returning to the one who birthed them. Until you accept being you.”

“Then I’ll never control it.” She blinked tears.

“No,” Wit said. He nodded toward the version of her still standing up. “You will, Shallan. If you do not trust yourself, can you trust me? For in you, I see a woman more wonderful than any of the lies. I promise you, that woman is worth protecting. You are worth protecting.”

She nodded toward the illusion of herself still standing. “I can’t be her. She’s just another fabrication.”

Both illusions vanished. “I see only one woman here,” Wit said. “And it’s the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it.” He whispered to her. “It’s all right to hurt.” (OB, Ch. 82, The Girl Who Stood Up)

 

[MonsterMetroid]

14 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

To each their own opinions. But, bashing other opinions isnt going to change anything.

Did I come off strong or offensive? If I did I certainly didn't mean to and would like to know so that I could better avoid it in the future so honest feedback would help with that.

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

And that's my entire problem. It's not about exploring the characters. That's a byproduct of arguing opinions that aren't going to change. So it's just this circular argument digging deeper and deeper to try and prove something that doesn't matter.

Honestly I created this topic because I saw something I didn't  think anyone (or at least most people) else had considered much in depth. Originally the topic was titled "Adolin and Shallan will get divorced" but someone changed the title probably for spoiler reasons and I could see how the new title is well... I don't like it.

6 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

As a side issue, I find it strange that people are against the MCs getting together. I mean if there is a romantic arc between Shallan and Kaladin it will likely enhance their story, not reduce it

I definitely dont see ti as an issue because not only will it enhance their story line, but it keeps viewpoint creep in check later in the series. I really hope it doesn't get to WoT big with the number of juggling viewpoints

Edited December 21, 2017 by MonsterMetroid
added formating for original thread, and phineas gage comment to avoid double post

[StrikerEZ]

The thing that bothers me the most about this whole issue is that some of you arguing for Shalladin are basically putting down the opinions of us arguing for Shadolin by implying that Shalladin has objective proof that it's gonna happen no matter what. I'd be open to a good discussion about this, but it seems like both sides have dug their heels in with their argument and aren't gonna change their minds. 

[MonsterMetroid]

On 12/21/2017 at 9:31 AM, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

The thing that bothers me the most about this whole issue is that some of you arguing for Shalladin are basically putting down the opinions of us arguing for Shadolin by implying that Shalladin has objective proof that it's gonna happen no matter what. I'd be open to a good discussion about this, but it seems like both sides have dug their heels in with their argument and aren't gonna change their minds. 

I understand that but even if Shallan and Adolin do get Divorced it doesnt mean that Shalladin would happen. I actually hope that in the next book we might see some evidence of a Laral plus Kalladin relationship so I'm definitely not trying to say that.

[removed]

I really was just trying to focus on why I think Divorce might happen for the first time in a Sanderson book, the main reason I created the new thread was because I was hoping to get some new people into the discussion. If there are things or theories of whats to come, that make you think that Shallan and Adolin won't get divorced but will instead work through their problems I would love to hear them. If you disagree in my original comment about Veil having the most truth of the personalities I would love to hear your thoughts. I definitely am trying to be open minded about it and not drive away anyone.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Chaos
Removing a Calderis conversation

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

The thing that bothers me the most about this whole issue is that some of you arguing for Shalladin are basically putting down the opinions of us arguing for Shadolin by implying that Shalladin has objective proof that it's gonna happen no matter what. I'd be open to a good discussion about this, but it seems like both sides have dug their heels in with their argument and aren't gonna change their minds. 

I'm not implying there's objective proof Shalladin is going to happen no matter what; I'm directly saying that   But I could be wrong.  This is the thing, you're not being put down for your opinions, your opinions are just being challenged.  This is how you debate issues - you present an opinion with evidence to back it up, the other side presents a counter-opinion with evidence to back it up and to negate your evidence, you then support your opinion with evidence and counterarguments to their evidence, and so on.  Sometimes a consensus is reached, but a lot of the time it isn't!  I mean for forever people thought dinosaurs had lizard-like skin and then some evidence came out they had feathers, and it was a big debate, and at the height of that debate some paleontologists were convinced of one or the other side based on how they interpreted the evidence.  It's not any different here.  (Though I doubt anyone told those paleontologists they shouldn't be debating... )  There is evidence on both sides, we can debate it and counter it, and at the moment we don't know the right answer (with the answer being where Brandon is headed with this; I know between you and I we agree he knows.) 

I think part of the frustration among Shalladin supporters is that Shadolin supporters tend to be unwilling to engage on the issue.  (If you don't want to engage, btw, that's totally fine, but like I said above, you can't say someone is putting down your opinion just because they are engaging to state they disagree and explain why.)  I want to walk through an example of how a debate could go on one of the issues:

• Shadolin: Shallan chose Adolin at the end; she made her choice and it is over.
• Shalladin: It was "Shallan" who chose Adolin, and in doing so, she had to forcibly "stuff" Radiant and Veil to the back of her pain.  Repression of thoughts and memories is unhealthy for Shallan so therefore this was not a mentally healthy choice.
• Shadolin: Even if "Shallan" reintegrates with Veil and Radiant, the wholeShallan would still choose Adolin.  Radiant is fairly asexual and focused on the practical benefits of relationships, which Adolin offers as he is highprince, well connected, good fighter, etc.  She would be happy with the Adolin choice.  Veil has had lustful feelings for Kaladin, but her feelings are fairly superficial and focused on physical attraction.  Veil also is motivated by adventure and investigations, so she will not prioritize her romantic desires.  "Shallan" on the other side has always fantasized about romance and the perfect match; look how giddy she's always been about the romance with Adolin.  Even after integration, the "Shallan" alter's current opinion would prevail for romantic feelings as she is the one who cares about them the most.
• Shalladin: Though though it is far from conclusive, we can make an argument that Veil is actually closer to wholeShallan than "Shallan" is, based on evidence such the "frenzied child" in the Re-Shephir fight and Brandon's WoK annotation about Shallan's hidden "passion", so in a fully integrated wholeShallan, Veil's desires are likely to prevail.
• Shadolin: I don't think you have sufficient evidence to support the assertion that Veil is dominant, as the Shallan we've seen throughout the books (even when healthy) is much closer to "Shallan" than Veil.  Regardless, even if Veil is more prominent than it currently appears, "Shallan" is still the alter who we see has the most romantic feelings, so her romantic feelings would trumpVeil's lustful feelings.

These are obviously my counterarguments to my own arguments, so I bet you could do better, but I would love to actually debate the issues, and I am actually dying for someone to point out Shadolin evidence I haven't found or considered.

PS: I believe it's pretty much consensus that dinosaurs had feathers, just to put that one to rest.

PPS: @MonsterMetroid I'm a Laraladin shipper too.  There's a lot of strong objection to that one, but I'm not giving up yet!

Edited December 21, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Prelude]

I’m not sure how I really want this to all play out. Shallodin wasn’t my ship but neither am I keen on a divorce. I tend to go along with the thought Andolin will die and possibly by a result of Shallan lying to herself.  Which makes me think if Shalladin are endgame it won’t be in book 4 or 5 but much later.  I just wish she wouldn’t have chosen anyone. I would much rather of had her walk away from both men then to have this rushed marriage that seems so shallow and superficial. What bothers me most is I don’t see a way this is going to end in a satisfying manner to myself.   

Edited December 21, 2017 by Prelude

[Vissy]

@Dreamstorm As a word of advice, don't go down the rabbit hole of "you guys are just emotional and we're factual debaters". Shalladin shippers are obviously more Invested in this discussion right now, given that the ship is seemingly on thin ice after the end of OB, hence all of this discussion - obviously we're going to be the ones with more analysis to back up our opinions. Besides, we're not dealing in facts. What we're doing is literary analysis. It's the equivalent of guessing at the shape of an object through a fragmented window. Now I happen to agree with the Shalladin theories, I think there's definitely foreshadowing for them ending up together. Still... just a shipping war. Don't put people down for being non-factual or "arguing emotionally" or whatever when it's just shipping wars.

The main reason I really do believe in Shalladin is the rushed marriage, and how Shallan pushed other aspects of herself under the surface. That's what set the suspicion in motion for me. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Vissy

[Dreamstorm]

3 minutes ago, Vissy said:

@Dreamstorm As a word of advice, don't go down the rabbit hole of "you guys are just emotional and we're factual debaters". Shalladin shippers are obviously more Invested in this discussion right now, given that the ship is seemingly on thin ice after the end of OB, hence all of this discussion - obviously we're going to be the ones with more analysis to back up our opinions. Besides, we're not dealing in facts. What we're doing is literary analysis. It's the equivalent of guessing at the shape of an object through a fragmented window. Now I happen to agree with the Shalladin theories, I think there's definitely foreshadowing for them ending up together. Still... just a shipping war. Don't put people down for being non-factual or "arguing emotionally" or whatever when it's just shipping wars.

Good point - I didn't mean it in a condescending way but just a frustrated way, and I edited the post to make that line less inflammatory, including changing "facts" to "evidence" (which I do think better fits what we're dealing with here in literary analysis.)  I also think you have a good point that Shadolin supporters don't have as much motivation to engage since they feel the ship is on solid ground.  (I only went down the rabbit hole with this myself because I love a good romance, and I wasn't happy with the plot from a romance perspective; I didn't care previously who ended up with who, I just wanted a romance I could get behind!)  Thanks for the pointers 

[Vissy]

I've always loved romance as well, I think that's something all shippers have in common  at least on the plus side BS is going to write Books 4 and 5 back to back. No more infinite guessing between two massive books we finish reading inside a week!

[MonsterMetroid]

1 minute ago, Vissy said:

BS is going to write Books 4 and 5 back to back. No more infinite guessing between two massive books we finish reading inside a week!

Wait what!!!! Is this true? Where did you hear it?!