The Lord Ruler vs. Susebron

[Housedunn]

The battle of God Kings! A battle between The Lord Ruler and Susebron. Susebron has his tongue and two senanrios; one where LR has only the metal available during the end of the Hero of Ages, ( with or without atium: take your pick), and one with the metal available at the end of the Bands of Morning (without atium) 

No lerasium

the setting is TLR's palace; I don't know how to spell it off the top of my head

leave a reason behind your predicted outcome and because there is little to no information for the Tenth Heightening or Componding speculation is welcome!

[King Cole]

TLR would no matter what the scenario. Compounding alone would give him an instant win, not to mention his stupidly strong allomancy

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I believe TLR's palace is called Kredik Shaw.

I would have to go with TLR, for a couple reasons. The 1st major reason is of course compounding, since it gives TLR access to absurds amount of speed, strength, healing, etc. The 2nd major reason is the fact that, for all of Susebron's power, he is incredibly fragile. Heightenings do not grant any physical reinforcement benefits, besides the peak prime condition that comes with being Returned, and I don't know if there is a way Susebron can use his divine Breath on himself, so he would have the durability of a normal human vs TLR's ridiculous levels of healing.

From there it really comes down to how while Awakening can be used for combat, I don't feel like it is as suited for it as Allomancy and Feruchemy are, especially in a metal heavy location such as Kredik Shaw.

The only way I could see Susebron winning is if he mentally commanded TLR's clothes to remove his bracers, but even then I am unsure if he would be able to do this before TLR could react.

[Archer]

TLR all the way. Not only for the reasons stated by others above, but because he's more experienced. Susebron has had little experience with combat or rebellion. He's more used to being pampered. TLR has had decades of experience dealing with rebels, spreading fear and being generally evil. He's had to work hard to get his position of power.

Also, if TLR has the home field advantage, the I guarantee that he would cheat. He'd get his steel inquisitors to intervene, plant traps and try to overwhelm Susebron somehow. In return, Susebron couldn't do much more than critique the palace décor. 

The only trick Susebron has up his sleave is his Breath. Unfortunately, the only way he could weaponize it is by using it on TLR. While this would probably catch him by surprise, I don't think it would harm TLR in any way. In fact, it would probably just heal him. So unless being super-healthy has some unforeseen adverse effect on TLR, Susebron is doomed. 

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

Actually, I just thought of something. Divine Breath can be used to heal a person. How about curse? If Divine Breath can be used to remove TLR's Feruchemy and Allomancy, Susebron might be able to win.

Again, this would depend heavily on the extent to which divine Breath can be used, and whether TLR gave Susebron the necessary time to think.

[+ILuvHats]

I feel like whenever the Lord Ruler is involved, there’s no debate.  It’s stupidly difficult to top him.  No other splinters are equal in pure power (unless you count Kelsier, who is basically a second LR), so unless his opponent is a Shard, the Lord Ruler is almost guaranteed to win.  

[xinoehp512]

As has been stated before, TLR is first pick hands down. With Allomancy https://coppermind.net/wiki/Allomancy and Feruchemy https://coppermind.net/wiki/Feruchemy (keep in mind that the Feruchemical powers are unlimited, due to Compounding) he would be the most powerful being in the universe if not for the Shards (at least, that we know of currently)

Plus, of course atium, which means that TLR will know whatever Susebron does before he does it. Given all of this, it's hard to see how Susebron is getting out of this alive. However, perhaps all is not lost. Susebron has all of these abilities on this page: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Heightening, along with the ability to Awaken a ton of stuff. Although Susebron's abilities may not be very powerful, he could win just by overwhelming. Of course only if he had something a little extra. The original question had plenty of wiggle room, so I suggest that perhaps Tenth Heightening abilities could be used to significantly boost Susebron's chances. And one more thing:

Nightblood.

Susebron potentially has all the ingredients to Awaken another Class-IV type BioChromatic Entity, which, if it is anything like Nightblood, should be able to destroy TLR with not all that much effort. Add that to distracting objects flying around trying to yank of TLR's bracers, and an army of Lifeless storming him (the Inquisitors being removed by ribbons of cloth to spikes) and even with mental speed, it isn't looking as good for our favorite all-powerful dictator. Of course, even with all of this, TLR still has a pretty good chance, except for one final thing which I believe has already been mentioned: Breath Shock. All TLR would see with atium is Susebron lunging at him, so he gets ready to do like he did with Kelsier and punch his face to oblivion, but then feels Breath rushing through him. Even Denth, who knew exactly what it felt like, was startled enough to be run through, and TLR has never felt it before. 

So, despite what many have said, Susebron still has a decent chance of winning.

BTW, ILuvHats, minor thing, but TLR was not not a Splinter, but a Sliver. A Splinter is Investiture that has developed sentience, whereas a Sliver is someone who has held the power of a Shard. The name was actually inspired by the Steel Ministry's term for TLR as the "Sliver of Infinity"

Although, it's easy to mix those up, so I can see that happening. :-)

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

In this scenario, does Susebron understand the importance of TLR's atium bracers?

[xinoehp512]

Presumably, yes. If he is facing off against the Lord Ruler on his own turf, then he's probably learned about him by now.

[IndigoAjah]

5 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

Presumably, yes. If he is facing off against the Lord Ruler on his own turf, then he's probably learned about him by now.

But within the LR's world, whilst he lived, nobody knew about the bracers! That was a plot point

[TheLordRuler]

23 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

The original question had plenty of wiggle room, so I suggest that perhaps Tenth Heightening abilities could be used to significantly boost Susebron's chances. And one more thing:

Nightblood.

Susebron potentially has all the ingredients to Awaken another Class-IV type BioChromatic Entity, which, if it is anything like Nightblood, should be able to destroy TLR with not all that much effort. Add that to distracting objects flying around trying to yank of TLR's bracers, and an army of Lifeless storming him (the Inquisitors being removed by ribbons of cloth to spikes) and even with mental speed, it isn't looking as good for our favorite all-powerful dictator. Of course, even with all of this, TLR still has a pretty good chance, except for one final thing which I believe has already been mentioned: Breath Shock. All TLR would see with atium is Susebron lunging at him, so he gets ready to do like he did with Kelsier and punch his face to oblivion, but then feels Breath rushing through him. Even Denth, who knew exactly what it felt like, was startled enough to be run through, and TLR has never felt it before. 

So, despite what many have said, Susebron still has a decent chance of winning.

4

All of this is pointless. Susebron would never be able to hit TLR with anything. Not Nightblood, cloth spikes, and certainly not Lifeless. He certainly wouldn't be able to get close enough to transfer the Breaths. When TLR moves, time might as well stop for him. His top speeds are theoretically limitless. Whatever the smallest measurement of time is; that's how long it would take for TLR to deal with Susebron and any other challenger. 

Also, consider how TLR has literally held a portion of a Shard. I doubt any number of Breaths could ever match that.
 
There is no person who can challenge TLR in raw strength. Even other Fullborns wouldn't be able to since his Allomancy is pure and beyond even Lerasium and his Feruchemy is the strongest available considering how he almost wiped out his race. Its possible someone from the future, like Kelsier, might match him but only if he has an overwhelming weaponised-technological advantage. 

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

4 minutes ago, TheLordRuler said:

All of this is pointless. Susebron would never be able to hit TLR with anything. Not Nightblood, cloth spikes, and certainly not Lifeless. He certainly wouldn't be able to get close enough to transfer the Breaths. When TLR moves, time might as well stop for him. His top speeds are theoretically limitless. Whatever the smallest measurement of time is; that's how long it would take for TLR to deal with Susebron and any other challenger. 

I agree with you, though Breath transfer distance isn't a factor since Susebron has the 10th and 9th heightening, which give him the ability to mentally awaken and awaken things within sound of his voice respectively.

[IndigoAjah]

On the Nightblood front, if Susebron could make Nightblood (which I severely doubt he has the actual knowledge to do, raw power be damned), he wouldn't need to hit TLR with it. Just leave it unsheathed and TLR could be in trouble, as I'm not sure he would be pure of heart enough to resist it.

[TheLordRuler]

5 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I agree with you, though Breath transfer distance isn't a factor since Susebron has the 10th and 9th heightening, which give him the ability to mentally awaken and awaken things within sound of his voice respectively.

You are correct, he can awaken from distance. I assume this means he can transfer from a distance too. But I think that would still accomplish very little, given how fast his mind would process the power, and his superspeeds. Susebron would be far too slow to take advantage of any momentary surprise. 

I don't enjoy match ups which involve TLR. He will always come out on top. Something like Herald(s) Vs Susebron would be much more interesting.

[IndigoAjah]

The other thing to bear in mind is that due to hubris and complacency, demonstrably TLR DOESN'T always come out on top... he should, but his personality is part of the bundle, and we know that he has been sloppy enough before to allow those with the means to kill him, so I think Susebron would get one chance to one-shot him

[TheLordRuler]

4 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

The other thing to bear in mind is that due to hubris and complacency, demonstrably TLR DOESN'T always come out on top... he should, but his personality is part of the bundle, and we know that he has been sloppy enough before to allow those with the means to kill him, so I think Susebron would get one chance to one-shot him

That is possible yes. But it took an entire Shard to bring him down. Also, he would be able to detect something as heavily invested as Susebron/Nightblood. Even with his personality, I don't think he's stupid enough to let that someone that powerful close to him. I guess if Susebron has the advantage of surprise, and TLR has no idea what he's up against, then he might be able to one-shot him. That's far better chances than anyone else would have. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

Actually, something like Nightblood should be too heavily invested to have iron/steel lines. And TLR is unlikely to be able to make sense of Seb’s bronze pulses as it will not be allomantic or feruchemic investiture.

[xinoehp512]

@TheLordRuler, I don't know what you mean by:

19 hours ago, TheLordRuler said:

But it took an entire Shard to bring him down. 

TLR was taken down by Vin.

Given the power differences, usually I would say TLR, but if he could be defeated by Vin, he could potentially be defeated by Susebron. No mistake, TLR is still probably going to win anyway, but it might be closer than you think.

(Also, Susebron technically has held the power of a Shard: his Divine Breath is a Splinter of Endowment. Granted, this is significantly less powerful than the Well of Ascension, but he still has it, unlike TLR) 

[The One Who Connects]

On 12/20/2017 at 5:46 PM, xinoehp512 said:

I don't know what you mean by: "But it took an entire Shard to bring him down." TLR was taken down by Vin.

Vin was only able to remove his bracers because she was being fueled by the Mists, which were pure essence of Preservation. It's not direct action by a Shard, but it's action directly fueled by a Shard. The distinctions are there to be drawn by the two of you.

---

The two big things here that let TLR win are his powers and his experience. He's had a millennia to hone his skills and deal with situations. He has one of the most combat conducive powersets in the Cosmere. Those two things are a hard combination to beat.

On 12/19/2017 at 9:30 PM, TheLordRuler said:

I don't enjoy match ups which involve TLR. He will always come out on top. Something like Herald(s) Vs Susebron would be much more interesting.

I agree. This battle was more than likely made so "Battle of the God Kings" could happen rather than anything serious. Also, ~~~~ vs Herald devolves into which Honorblade is being used. Some of those powersets are very conducive for combat, and others aren't.

[Calderis]

We're seriously debating this? 

Susebron would be lying in a puddle if his own blood without time to realize he died. 

[Housedunn]

On 12/24/2017 at 2:48 AM, Calderis said:

We're seriously debating this? 

Susebron would be lying in a puddle if his own blood without time to realize he died. 

Harsh man harsh

do u have any reasoning for your statement?

and why are u typing this at 3

in morning?

[Calderis]

Just now, Housedunn said:

Harsh man harsh

do u have any reasoning for your statement?

and why are u typing this at 3

in morning?

Susebron has no means of healing. His tongue was obviously able to be healed and didn't. 

The heightenings offer no major physical upgrades compared to a Fullborn's compounding abilities. 

TLR taps steel and can outrun anything that Susebron does, and drop him in an instant. In the event that Susebron somehow does land a blow, gold compounding heals it and Susebron still dies. 

It's not a contest. Fullborn win any fight as long as they aren't stupid.

[Nathrangking]

If I may @Housedunn, @Calderis is absolutely correct. Before any other consideration one must remember that TLR can compound steel and gold. Faster than an eyeblink susebron is dead. Even if somehow he gets his hands on TLR pewter compounding and zinc compounding makes short work of him. Fullborns are about as dangerous as a single individual in the cosmere can get short of being a shard. 

EDIT:That as they say is pretty much that.

EDIT: Though @Calderis the question can be asked how much faster than an ordinary person Susebron could be? If he was at pique speed and he had say two nightblood caliber weapons it may be close even with gold compounding.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Nathrangking

[Calderis]

Alright let's just break it down. 

Susebron is functionally immortal but can still be killed. He has intuitive Awakening and can awaken things either with a touch and a thought, or a spoken command in the range of his voice he can awaken metal and stone, but he can't make those flexible so they still can't move. 

TLR can compound everything. 

So best case scenario I can  see for Susebron is he gets a command off to awaken TLR's clothing to strangle him. TLR taps gold to prevent killing himself and then brass to burn away his clothing, taps steel, Susebron is dead. 

His metalminds are to invested to be awakened and couldn't move even if they were. 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Calderis

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Housedunn said:

And why are you typing this at 3 in the morning?

Time Zones exist.

---

A big advantage for a character like Susebron is that he the Ninth Heightening allow one to awaken things via voice commands. Meaning that unlike say.. a Windrunner, he can make use of things outside his reach, and that gives him an advantage in that his adversary doesn't always know what outside item he is making use of. (See Kelsier and the paperweight)

Another advantage is his vast supply of breath. Susebron can theoretically awaken everything within the sound of his voice. He can have awakened objects swarming his opponent, distracting him and/or slowing him down. Ropes can trip and entangle, cloth can blind, etc...

The biggest advantage Susebron has is surprise, since per WoB, TLR wouldn't recognize a Returned as a Returned. Combine that with the fact that TLR is overconfident, and Susebron might have an opening.

---

Distractions can be handled with F-Zinc, which TLR has. Speed can be handled with F-Steel. A combination of the two can deal with awakened objects outside his range of vision(physical speed to move around, mental speed to comprehend), provided he knows to do that.

F-Pewter and A-Pewter can handle most anything that does manage to entangle him, as well as give him the strength to deliver a killing blow(since i don't think TLR actually carries any weaponry). I don't believe TLR has Inquisitor level steelsight, so obscuring his sight with cloth might actually blind him, but humans in real life can remove things like that without too much difficulty, and Pewter strength can probably help against actively awakened cloth.

Regarding Susebron's potential opening, there aren't that many things that can kill a gold compounder. And at that point, if Susebron fails, TLR lets loose.

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What does Susebron have that can kill the Lord Ruler?