[OB] the legendary metal that stops shardblades

[Rockbud]

To address the mention of commonly named 'Aluminium' metal on Roshar and the legendary metal: there are lots of examples of things on Roshar being named after familiar things but having had their application mistaken: Axehound is even discussed as being a strange combination of words in one of the books where an Axe is known, but hound is not.

There seems to be some kind of racial memory where words of things have been remembered (perhaps from predating human arrival on Roshar) but the things themselves have been forgotten. More evidence given by lots of things the Shin have (grass, chickens/birds, horses, etc) that the majority of characters consider strange.

Maybe the name for a shiny metal 'Aluminium' is remembered, but has been applied to another metal incorrectly?

[king of nowhere]

17 hours ago, Heretic said:

So, I don’t which WoB is correct but if it’s not aluminum then my guess would be that it’s iridium. Unlike aluminum, iridium is very rare, at least on earth, but it’s very common in asteroids and meteorites. It also has a very similar color to aluminum, silvery-white, so it kind of resembles a sheet of aluminum foil. 

i toyed  with this idea, it's one of the possibilities. It would however imply there is a second investiture sink element

11 hours ago, I'mAStickFanClub said:

The process of smelting Alum into Aluminum is very technical and energy intensive (if you're curious just google the Hall-Héroult process). It wasn't even discovered until 1825. There is a 0% chance that pre-industrial civilizations like the ones on Roshar would know about the Aluminum (and thus be able to soulcast it) unless they had help from a world hopper. It seems plausible that such a world hopper would likely not understand the implications of having aluminum with regards to shardblades, although that is just speculation on my part.

native aluminium can be found in some volcanoes in low-oxygen environments, so rosharans may have discovered it; it is further backed up by claims  that during the final empire aluminium was mined from the ashmounts. Except there are no volcanoes on roshar, so there can't be that source of native aluminium. Maybe they got it from an asteroid and learned to soulcast it, or maybe it was a worldhopper, or even an herald

[I'mAStickFanClub]

8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i toyed  with this idea, it's one of the possibilities. It would however imply there is a second investiture sink element

native aluminium can be found in some volcanoes in low-oxygen environments, so rosharans may have discovered it; it is further backed up by claims  that during the final empire aluminium was mined from the ashmounts. Except there are no volcanoes on roshar, so there can't be that source of native aluminium. Maybe they got it from an asteroid and learned to soulcast it, or maybe it was a worldhopper, or even an herald

"Although aluminum is the most abundant metal in the earth's crust, it is never found free in nature. All of the earth's aluminum has combined with other elements to form compounds. Two of the most common compounds are alum, such as potassium aluminum sulfate (KAl(SO₄)." - https://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele013.html

So no, it is not found native in some volcanoes. Aluminum is difficult to smelt exactly because it chemically bonds so easily with other elements (mainly oxygen in the atmosphere or surrounding silicate rock). If you try to smelt alum like Iron ore the aluminum will literally burn away so it must be dissolved in solution and then subjected to electrolysis to get the pure metal.

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, I'mAStickFanClub said:

"Although aluminum is the most abundant metal in the earth's crust, it is never found free in nature. All of the earth's aluminum has combined with other elements to form compounds. Two of the most common compounds are alum, such as potassium aluminum sulfate (KAl(SO₄)." - https://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele013.html

So no, it is not found native in some volcanoes. Aluminum is difficult to smelt exactly because it chemically bonds so easily with other elements (mainly oxygen in the atmosphere or surrounding silicate rock). If you try to smelt alum like Iron ore the aluminum will literally burn away so it must be dissolved in solution and then subjected to electrolysis to get the pure metal.

"Because of its strong affinity for oxygen, aluminium is almost never found in the elemental state; instead it is found in oxides or silicates. Feldspars, the most common group of minerals in the Earth's crust, are aluminosilicates. Native aluminium metal can only be found as a minor phase in low oxygen fugacity environments, such as the interiors of certain volcanoes " Barthelmy, D. "Aluminum Mineral Data". Mineralogy Database. Archived from the original on 4 July 2008. Retrieved 9 July 2008.

I am a chemist myself, I know aluminium is very reactive with oxygen, but finding some of it native in low-oxygen environments makes sense. As we have different texts contradicting each other, we may dig deeper in research, or agree to let it be a maybe. At this point I don't know for sure but it makes at least enough sense that it may happen in theory

Regardless ofwhether it actually works in real life, they had aluminium in the final empire without electricity, and I think I remember (probably mentioned in one of the era 2 books, because I can't find it in arcanum) that they dug aluminium from the ashmounts, so brandon at least believed my same source (which is on wikipedia, so it would be easily found by a writer wondering how a preindustrial society can have aluminium)

Edited December 19, 2017 by king of nowhere

[I'mAStickFanClub]

4 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

"Because of its strong affinity for oxygen, aluminium is almost never found in the elemental state; instead it is found in oxides or silicates. Feldspars, the most common group of minerals in the Earth's crust, are aluminosilicates. Native aluminium metal can only be found as a minor phase in low oxygen fugacity environments, such as the interiors of certain volcanoes " Barthelmy, D. "Aluminum Mineral Data". Mineralogy Database. Archived from the original on 4 July 2008. Retrieved 9 July 2008.

I am a chemist myself, I know aluminium is very reactive with oxygen, but finding some of it native in low-oxygen environments makes sense. As we have different texts contradicting each other, we may dig deeper in research, or agree to let it be a maybe. At this point I don't know for sure but it makes at least enough sense that it may happen in theory

Regardless ofwhether it actually works in real life, they had aluminium in the final empire without electricity, and I think I remember (probably mentioned in one of the era 2 books, because I can't find it in arcanum) that they dug aluminium from the ashmounts, so brandon at least believed my same source (which is on wikipedia, so it would be easily found by a writer wondering how a preindustrial society can have aluminium)

It is at this point I should apologize. In retrospect, it is clear that I came across as hostile and that was not my intent. I was a chem major for a while in college and I perhaps take it a bit too seriously. After digging a bit deeper and reading more (http://rruff.info/uploads/AM94_1283.pdf was informative), maybe sounds about right.

As to how the final empire had aluminum I am perplexed as well. The lord ruler could have easily gained knowledge of aluminum while he was invested with ruin's shard, but you can't find aluminum by burning steel or iron so it seems like it would be infeasible to collect aluminum from volcanoes given how rare they are even when the conditions are right. Maybe it was never supposed to be aluminum but silver instead.

"Brandon thought of having Vin burn silver rather than aluminum when captured in Kredik Shaw but decided that aluminum would be less abundant." -  Annotation for The Hero of Ages 60

Or world-hoppers. That explanation works too.

[KidWayne]

Since hydrogen fluoride (HF) is a byproduct of the primary industrial process used to create aluminum (i.e. Hall–Héroult process) it makes me wonder if Brandon knows (or was influenced by the effect that hydrofluoric acid has on human tissue. Brandon's descriptions of lifeless in WB and of what happens to limbs that are cut by a shardblade sound a lot like how tissue that comes into contact with hydrofluoric acid is affected.

[Willow]

There was another interesting WoB at a signing this month:

Quote

Questioner
You know the sparring guards, for the Shardblade training, the guards they put on the Shardblades. Are they made of aluminum?

Brandon Sanderson
So, they are not. Peter will not let me make them made out of aluminum. He's my continuity editor, he keeps me honest. I tried to get them to be aluminum, but there are reasons why they can't be. So we had to make them their own weird little thing, unfortunately. But you could make a sheath out of aluminum for a Shardblade that would work.

He keeps me honest, so it's good, but I did try to fit them in that way.

This suggests that there are two metals (or one metal, aluminium, and one other material) that block Shardblades and surgebinding. So aluminium blocks Shardblades, and I personally think it's the metal that blocks the Soulcasting in Kholinar from being discovered, but there's also another material (the Blade guards) that would work, and that could be the 'metal from the sky' that is referenced.

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Willow

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

Since hydrogen fluoride (HF) is a byproduct of the primary industrial process used to create aluminum (i.e. Hall–Héroult process) it makes me wonder if Brandon knows (or was influenced by the effect that hydrofluoric acid has on human tissue. Brandon's descriptions of lifeless in WB and of what happens to limbs that are cut by a shardblade sound a lot like how tissue that comes into contact with hydrofluoric acid is affected.

I work around HF regularly and the stuff is terrifying. 

It seeks out the calcium in you bones. Any calcium really, but the things that it does to skin... That's nothing. If that's the only effect, then they were lucky and got a calcium salve on in time to draw it out. 

You don't feel HF til it starts eating at your bones, and at that point it's too late to do much other then calcium injections to slow the spread. 

There's not a single chemical I have to work near that bothers me more. Most gasses, are either harmless, or will kill me fast enough I won't know it happened, and most acids, you know somethings wrong, cause they burn. 

HF is just worse. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Calderis

[king of nowhere]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I work around HF regularly and the stuff is terrifying. 

It seeks out the calcium in you bones. Any calcium really, but the things that it does to skin... That's nothing. If that's the only effect, then they were locking and got a calcium salve on in time to draw it out. 

You don't feel HF til it starts eating at your bones, and at that point it's to late to do much other then calcium injections to slow the spread. 

There's not a single chemical I have to work near that bothers me more. Most gasses, are either harmless, or will kill me fast enough I won't know it happened, and most acids, you know somethings wrong, cause they burn. 

HF is just worse. 

can't agree more. During my PhD I worked with some dangerous stuff, including stuff that can cause cancer and arsenic compounds, and I was cool with them. I'd be very afraid to work with hydrofluoric acid.

Once a guy dropped a glass of hydrofluoric acid on his trousers. he disrobed and showered immediately, he was in a chemical lab and was immediately helped in the best way available. One week later they amputated his legs. Two weeks later he died anyway.

For comparison, once two workers fell into a tank of nitric acid (one of the most corrosive ones because the nitrate ion is a strong oxydizer) and they remained inside for a few minutes and they both survived.

that hand was probably exposed to some low-concentration vapors of the stuff, and the guy got away with little.

If aluminium investiture had anything to do with hydrofluoric acid, a lot of peoople would be poisoned by it

[insert_anagram_here]

I'm not sure if this is relevant to the topic or not, or if already mentioned. Is it possible that aluminum can maybe be found in Aimia? 

I mean, I've already read somewhere that based on the map pattern of Roshar it's easy to assume that Aimia wasn't originally part of the planet's surface. Maybe that part was formed when an aluminum meteorite crashed from space? 

If I'm completely running off a tangent here, please enlighten me.

[Willow]

4 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I'm not sure if this is relevant to the topic or not, or if already mentioned. Is it possible that aluminum can maybe be found in Aimia? 

I mean, I've already read somewhere that based on the map pattern of Roshar it's easy to assume that Aimia wasn't originally part of the planet's surface. Maybe that part was formed when an aluminum meteorite crashed from space? 

If I'm completely running off a tangent here, please enlighten me.

Oh, that might be an interesting idea. I think Aimia was at least part of the original design of Roshar (in the story, not just in the mind of the writer), since its shape is supposed to look like a particular slice of the Julia set (to hint to us that it was designed on purpose by some entity), but that doesn't tell us anything about how it was actually made, and meteorites are possible. I do wonder if meteorites that large exist, and what it would have done to the rest of Roshar? Aimia is weird anyway, and we know there's something interesting there.

[king of nowhere]

9 hours ago, Willow said:

Oh, that might be an interesting idea. I think Aimia was at least part of the original design of Roshar (in the story, not just in the mind of the writer), since its shape is supposed to look like a particular slice of the Julia set (to hint to us that it was designed on purpose by some entity), but that doesn't tell us anything about how it was actually made, and meteorites are possible. I do wonder if meteorites that large exist, and what it would have done to the rest of Roshar? Aimia is weird anyway, and we know there's something interesting there.

meteorites that large exist, but they don't leave an island behind. no, they would melt the whole crust of the planet, and they may even throw enough stuff into orbit to make a new satellite. they certainly destroy all life on the planet; maybe a few extremophiles bacteria can survive in some sheltered locations, but i wouldn't count on it. And afterwards there would be a crater as big as half the planet behind.

[AceGambit]

To people saying theres no aluminium on Roshar. Most gemstones are aluminium oxide (Al2O3). With some metallic elements in trace amounts. Which kinda makes sense as to why gems are able to store investiture, the Al sucks it in but the oxygen separates the individual atoms allowing it to gather within the gem. Then If you consider the laser properties of ruby and the investiture on Roshar is stormLIGHT.