Reckless Disregard

[OB] Prior Desolations; who goes back to Damnation?

6 posts in this topic

My read on this is that the Heralds tap out of torture time in Damnation/Braise then come to Roshar, presumably ahead of the Unmade to train new radiants.

Then the Unmade come back, somehow power up the parsh (via BAM? void spren?) and fight the humans.

Then, do the humans win when they defeat Odium's champion? Does that mean in the past? 

'What does a win mean as far as what happens to the non-humans? (Not the wildlife)

If Odium's champion loses, and all the Heralds are  killed, do all the Unmade go back to Braise? Parsh warriors too?

Or just the Heralds? Maybe the Unmade don't all die, they just jump to the Cognitive realm and then do the electric slide over to Braise? 

If the Unmade are cognitive shadows, some are less sapient and can be in the physical realm without a body/vessel and others more aware and sapient who need a body/vessel to operate (I guess they have all been seen on Roshar in "spren" form, just seems some are smaller versions of themselves as seen on Roshar vs larger versions as seen in the Cognitive realm, I'm talking more avl out being able to use powers, their form of void lashings, etc).

Is Damnation in the cognitive realm?

Because the Heralds are porting in their bodies, they aren't cognitive shadows.  They are akin to worldhoppers, though a forced transfer rather than voluntary, but moving at the time of death and somehow when they tap out from Braise to Roshar. This seems to be predicated on the deal between the Heralds, Honor and Odium (and maybe Cultivation). But for the Heralds, is it a forced trip from spot a, to the cognitive realm, to spot b? T'aln certainly wasn't in any condition to wander through the cognitive realm. Kinda picturing Braise spren bouncers bodily dragging him through and then giving him a heave ho through a portal. 

And what about the parsh warriors/people? 

Since this is not a true desolation, we don't really know what's up with the "leftovers"; the parshendi/Listeners and parshmen.  If the true desolation was ended, would the parsh people have left Roshar?

Would they be devolved? 

If there was a true end to the last desolation, and if the parsh warriors of old were taken off world, would the current Listeners and parshmen have been affected (again, if the parsh get taken offworld) since they were either without spren, in dullform, or somehow affected by BAM's imprisonment and either voidsprenless, depowered, spiritually lobotomized, tweased, or had their Connection severed?

Also, we know the Everstorm is new, so how did the Parsh get powered up back then in past desolations? Just BAM empowering? Did they have voidspren (seems likely), and then when Odium lost, what happened? The voidspren got flushed? The actual vessels/people/parsh went off world?

arg!!!!!

 

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14 hours ago, Reckless Disregard said:

Then the Unmade come back, somehow power up the parsh (via BAM? void spren?) and fight the humans.

It was actually the Fused (cognitive shadows of dead Parshmen hopped up on Odium) who were released from the Oathpact and allowed to return to Roshar. Presumably some unsuspecting parshmen would then get Fuse'd, and the newly returned Singer gods would them lead their people against mankind to begin the Desolation. One would also assume that the Voidspren would return to give the Parshmen/voidbringers forms of power.

The powerups were probably provided via Voidspren, like what the Listeners did when Venli was stockpiling Stormspren to allow them to transform the entire population into Stormform prior to the Everstorm. 

14 hours ago, Reckless Disregard said:

Then, do the humans win when they defeat Odium's champion? Does that mean in the past? 

Unclear. To my knowledge, we don't actually know what the victory/ending conditions for a Desolation was. It might have been killing all the fused, there might have been a time limit.

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So I'll break this down question by question... cause there are kind of a lot of question. 

15 hours ago, Reckless Disregard said:

My read on this is that the Heralds tap out of torture time in Damnation/Braise then come to Roshar, presumably ahead of the Unmade to train new radiants.

Then the Unmade come back, somehow power up the parsh (via BAM? void spren?) and fight the humans.

Then, do the humans win when they defeat Odium's champion? Does that mean in the past? 

Odium did not have a champion in past conflicts. That's a new development that Honor threw out there to try and bait Odium into a contest that would be more fair for humanity. The Unmade also do not go to Damnation in between Desolations. We have reports of them being active by the Radiants post-Last Desolation, and they are active in the current time, pre-Everstorm.

 

15 hours ago, Reckless Disregard said:

What does a win mean as far as what happens to the non-humans? (Not the wildlife)

If Odium's champion loses, and all the Heralds are  killed, do all the Unmade go back to Braise? Parsh warriors too?

Or just the Heralds? Maybe the Unmade don't all die, they just jump to the Cognitive realm and then do the electric slide over to Braise? 

Odium has to keep his deals. If Odium wins a Desolation, he presumbly shatters Cultivation and leaves Roshar, with the Singers in charge. I suspect that won't turn out how they expect. Odium has never had a champion before, the Unmade don't go to Braize, and the only Singers that would go to Damnation are the Fused.

15 hours ago, Reckless Disregard said:

If the Unmade are cognitive shadows, some are less sapient and can be in the physical realm without a body/vessel and others more aware and sapient who need a body/vessel to operate (I guess they have all been seen on Roshar in "spren" form, just seems some are smaller versions of themselves as seen on Roshar vs larger versions as seen in the Cognitive realm, I'm talking more avl out being able to use powers, their form of void lashings, etc).

I'm not sure what the question is here. All we know for sure about Unmade is that they are Splinters of Odium. Beyond that, if they are Cognitive Shadows fused with a Splinter, corrupted spren, or what, we have no idea. For most intents and purposes, there's incredibly little difference between a spren and a Cognitive Shadow. Both are highly invested Cognitive entities. Spren have less freedom in their actions than Cognitive Shadows, but that's really the major difference from my point of view.

 

15 hours ago, Reckless Disregard said:

Is Damnation in the cognitive realm?

It might be the Cognitive Realm of Braize, or Braize might be Damnation. No way of knowing yet. Ashyn might be Damnation as well, since the land is burning.

 

15 hours ago, Reckless Disregard said:

Because the Heralds are porting in their bodies, they aren't cognitive shadows.  They are akin to worldhoppers, though a forced transfer rather than voluntary, but moving at the time of death and somehow when they tap out from Braise to Roshar. This seems to be predicated on the deal between the Heralds, Honor and Odium (and maybe Cultivation). But for the Heralds, is it a forced trip from spot a, to the cognitive realm, to spot b? T'aln certainly wasn't in any condition to wander through the cognitive realm. Kinda picturing Braise spren bouncers bodily dragging him through and then giving him a heave ho through a portal. 

And what about the parsh warriors/people? 

Heralds are Cognitive Shadows with a Physical aspect. Their bodies might be solidified Investiture, much like people's bodies turn into in Shadesmar. Singers do not leave Roshar after Desolations... probably. Otherwise their presence in modern Roshar is unexplained.

15 hours ago, Reckless Disregard said:

Since this is not a true desolation, we don't really know what's up with the "leftovers"; the parshendi/Listeners and parshmen.  If the true desolation was ended, would the parsh people have left Roshar?

Would they be devolved? 

If there was a true end to the last desolation, and if the parsh warriors of old were taken off world, would the current Listeners and parshmen have been affected (again, if the parsh get taken offworld) since they were either without spren, in dullform, or somehow affected by BAM's imprisonment and either voidsprenless, depowered, spiritually lobotomized, tweased, or had their Connection severed?

Also, we know the Everstorm is new, so how did the Parsh get powered up back then in past desolations? Just BAM empowering? Did they have voidspren (seems likely), and then when Odium lost, what happened? The voidspren got flushed? The actual vessels/people/parsh went off world?

This is a true Desolation in current Roshar. There are Fused, Regals, and Odium's active. Singers do not leave Roshar, it's the Fused that are forced to leave after a Desolation ends. I have no real idea what devolved means in this context. BAM being imprisoned is almost certainly what caused the Singers to become the Parshmen. Previously when Fused were killed, they went back to Damnation, and then had to come back to Roshar. Now they just hang out in the Everstorm. Voidspren probably had to go back post-desolations with the Fused, since Regal forms showing up outside a Desolation was remarkable. And again: Singers do not leave Roshar after a Desolation.

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Why are the unmade the only ones not sent to damnation? it seems that that the fused and void spren are bound there. Now it seems the fused are bound to the ever storm. If the storm could be trapped or bound in some manner, it could let it be used against the fused in some way. Thus dealing with them permanently without the oath pact.

i kinda like the idea of the unmade being trapped on damnation. I have this idea that they could be used as a weapon against the fused.

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1 hour ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

Why are the unmade the only ones not sent to damnation? it seems that that the fused and void spren are bound there. Now it seems the fused are bound to the ever storm. If the storm could be trapped or bound in some manner, it could let it be used against the fused in some way. Thus dealing with them permanently without the oath pact.

i kinda like the idea of the unmade being trapped on damnation. I have this idea that they could be used as a weapon against the fused.

They aren't because they weren't. The Unmade were active on Roshar in modern times before the Everstorm was. I'm not a huge fan either but I'm not going to argue canon.

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That's the whole point I was trying to make. The unmade are in a way more dangerous than the fused and higher rank, so they should be more important to bind rather than the fused.

 

i just had an idea, why were the heralds tortured in damnation? They carried honor blades, but what if as splinters of honor they were forbidden from being used. It would be as if honor was breaking the pact. Imagine if the heralds somehow became full knight radiants, with their own shard blade and plate. Those would be free to use.

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