Nale

The Five Scholars on Scadrial

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There is a WoB from November 13, at the Oathbringer signing party, in which Brandon confirms that Nightblood's sheath is made of Aluminum.   Brandon has also previously noted that Vasher (and I assume at least also shashara if not all the scholars) where on Roshar to study investiture, leading them to attempt to duplicate shardblades on Nalthis (resulting in Nightblood).  He also noted separately (sorry for not having this WoB's linked) that Nightblood's sheath was present upon Nightblood's creation to serve its obviously necessary purpose (though he does make it sound like they aren't sure what will happen).  However we can pretty obviously infer there, that the five scholars are aware of at least some properties of Aluminum for them to have used it as the metal to be sure they could put Nightblood inside if they needed to.  Compounding this knowledge with the presence of Iyatil (who is, I believe, a confirmed southern Scadrian) on Roshar to prove that worldhopping between the planets is fairly conceivable, it seems to me to be fairly certain that the scholars would have also visited Scadrial on their trip and brought the aluminum back with them.  Do we have any other confirmation that they went to other planets? Or do we only know for sure that Vasher at least has been to Roshar and Nalthis? 

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Welcome to the Shard. This is a heck of a first or second post. have a cookie from the DA(see below).

For initiation could you say "My life to yours, my Breath become yours."

Too my knowledge we only have had confirmation of Roshar and Nalthis.

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Well, I would leave it at "My life to yours, my Breath become yours." But I think that's a bit of a drab reply.  Thanks for the response, I suppose I'll have to make it to a signing and look for confirmation myself, Brandon was nearby where I was living twice last year but I could never make it out. I have been a lurker on site for several years, following Brandon since his incredible deliverance (in my opinion) of the close of the Wheel of Time, and have been discussing the topics from the 17th shard with a literary group of friends I am in for a few years as well, so perhaps that gives me a slight edge on first comment status.  Thanks for the cookie my friend.

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Welcome to the Shard Nale! Really interesting post. I think you are right. I think the “Scholars” in Five Scholars is because they just traveled all around the Cosmere, and then they established on Nalthis. Because I don’t think they are from Nalthis. Judging by their names, I’d guess they come from different parts of the Cosmere, and they just formed like a little group and they shared all their knowledge and stuff, because names like Shashara don’t sound like they come from Nalthis. Maybe Denth/VaraTreledees is Nalthis native, but anyways, I’m going off topic. I do think they worldhopped all around the Cosmere, and when they went to Nalthis, people thought they were really smart, and that they invented things like other kinds of investiture.

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Welcome, nice post.

So, we know that scadrial is one of the easiest planets for a worldhopper to get to

Quote

ARARITA

Has Denth ever been to Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Has Denth been to Scadrial. So Scadrial is one of the planets that's easier to get to, in cosmere terms. I will say this: he did not travel the cosmere widely. But Scadrial is one of the easier-- He spent a lot of time on Roshar, and did not travel widely. That's your answer.

Source

We know scadrial had an interplanetary trading system at the time of The Final Empire

Quote

Questioner

In Secret History, Hoid says something to Kelsier about him destroying the Pits and destroying an entire mercantile system. Is he talking about literal inter-Realmic trade?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Interplanetary trade, yes.

Questioner

Follow-up: Is House Venture involved?

Brandon Sanderson

House Venture is not involved. People in House Venture might be.

Questioner

The guy who--

Brandon Sanderson

Here is a RAFO card for your follow-up. House Venture is-- Yes.

Source

The problem is that aluminium was incredibly hard to get then, basically only the Lord Ruler generally had access to it

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy-Four

Allomantic Secrets

Some people have asked me why the Lord Ruler was so careful to keep secrets about Allomancy. What would it have mattered if he let out that there were atium Mistings?

Some of the secrets offered a sizable tactical advantage. Keeping back duralumin and aluminum gave him and his Inquisitors (the only ones told about those metals, other than a few select obligators) tools that nobody knew about. Very few Inquisitors could burn duralumin (and most who did it gained the ability through the use of spikes reused from previous, dead Inquisitors—and those spikes were therefore much weaker.). However, those who did have the power could appear inordinately skilled in Allomancy, enhancing the Lord Ruler's divine reputation.

Beyond that, knowledge is power. I believe that. And I think that if you're the Lord Ruler, you want to keep a few secrets about your magic system. Mistborn are very rare. Mistings among the nobility—particularly in the early centuries—were not rare. If they'd known about atium Mistings, it could have upset the balance by creating too many superwarriors.

Plus, if there are unknown superwarriors to be had, then you want to keep them for yourself

Source

But they could've seen an Inquisitor use it.

All in all, I like the thinking and there's plenty of evidence supporting the possibility. There's probably aluminum on nalthis but i suppose they may not be aware that its resistant to investiture as they'd hardly have tried to awaken it. 

So yeah, I think there are other possibilities, but this seems like a good one. 

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@Ookla the Indivergable Those are all really great points, it seems just as reasonable to assume that the Scholars were able to learn about the properties of different metals from the trade system as they would have been from actually going there themselves, and given that Brandon does not seem to want to say one way or another if Denth had been to Scadrial, it feels right that perhaps he had been to Cognitive-Side Scadrial for trade and information but not the physical realm.  I had seen the second two Wob's but not the first, and hadn't considered them all in that way.  Thanks!

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12 hours ago, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

Welcome to the Shard Nale! Really interesting post. I think you are right. I think the “Scholars” in Five Scholars is because they just traveled all around the Cosmere, and then they established on Nalthis. Because I don’t think they are from Nalthis. Judging by their names, I’d guess they come from different parts of the Cosmere, and they just formed like a little group and they shared all their knowledge and stuff, because names like Shashara don’t sound like they come from Nalthis. Maybe Denth/VaraTreledees is Nalthis native, but anyways, I’m going off topic. I do think they worldhopped all around the Cosmere, and when they went to Nalthis, people thought they were really smart, and that they invented things like other kinds of investiture.

Don't we also have WoB that Shards don't tend to naturally give Investiture to people outside their purview? If they weren't from Nalthis, I doubt they'd have been made into Returned.

Edited by Crazy1993
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13 hours ago, Nale said:

There is a WoB from November 13, at the Oathbringer signing party, in which Brandon confirms that Nightblood's sheath is made of Aluminum.   Brandon has also previously noted that Vasher (and I assume at least also shashara if not all the scholars) where on Roshar to study investiture, leading them to attempt to duplicate shardblades on Nalthis (resulting in Nightblood).  He also noted separately (sorry for not having this WoB's linked) that Nightblood's sheath was present upon Nightblood's creation to serve its obviously necessary purpose (though he does make it sound like they aren't sure what will happen).  However we can pretty obviously infer there, that the five scholars are aware of at least some properties of Aluminum for them to have used it as the metal to be sure they could put Nightblood inside if they needed to.  Compounding this knowledge with the presence of Iyatil (who is, I believe, a confirmed southern Scadrian) on Roshar to prove that worldhopping between the planets is fairly conceivable, it seems to me to be fairly certain that the scholars would have also visited Scadrial on their trip and brought the aluminum back with them.  Do we have any other confirmation that they went to other planets? Or do we only know for sure that Vasher at least has been to Roshar and Nalthis? 

As others have said, welcome to the Shard!

I do like your reasoning, but there's a couple of things that you're missing. Firstly we have this WoB:

Quote

shoeties

Has Vasher ever been to a world other than Nalthis or Roshar, or was this his first time worldhopping?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher has only been to Roshar and Nalthis, beyond places in Shadesmar.

This obviously doesn't preclude any of the other Five Scholars from having been to Scadrial, nor from Vasher having been to the Expanse of the Vapours, but it does go somewhat against your idea.

Secondly, Iyatil isn't actually Scadrian:

Quote

FeatherWriter

Is Iyatil from Southern Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Iyatil has heritage along those lines, but she is not.

source

Quote

Questioner

Obviously the world covers different planets, but most people on all the individual planets don't know about the other planets. Is there a planet within the cosmere where worldhopping is common knowledge?

Brandon Sanderson

Is there a planet in the cosmere where worldhopping is common knowledge. Um… it's not a planet.

Bystander

It's a space station? *laughter* That's no moon!

Brandon Sanderson

That's not as far off as people laughing think that it is. *laughter* It's not a space station, it's not that futuristic, but there is a place in the cosmere where a lot of worldhoppers have settled, is where Iyatil is from, even though her ethnicity is not from there.

Moderator

Clarifying question… Is that place in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

*laughs* RAFO!

Footnote: Brandon has since confirmed that the worldhopper colony, named Silverlight, is located in the Cognitive Realm.

source

 

12 hours ago, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

Welcome to the Shard Nale! Really interesting post. I think you are right. I think the “Scholars” in Five Scholars is because they just traveled all around the Cosmere, and then they established on Nalthis. Because I don’t think they are from Nalthis. Judging by their names, I’d guess they come from different parts of the Cosmere, and they just formed like a little group and they shared all their knowledge and stuff, because names like Shashara don’t sound like they come from Nalthis. Maybe Denth/VaraTreledees is Nalthis native, but anyways, I’m going off topic. I do think they worldhopped all around the Cosmere, and when they went to Nalthis, people thought they were really smart, and that they invented things like other kinds of investiture.

Quote

BlackYeti

In Words of Radiance, we have Vasher showing up... One of his aliases on Nalthis is Kalad, which is very similar to the name of one of the Heralds on Roshar. So I was wondering how far back this connection between him and Roshar goes.

Brandon Sanderson

It goes pretty far back, in fact when I wrote Way of Kings, the 2002 version; he was a main character and was Kaladin's swordmaster. I wrote Warbreaker to jump back and write out his backstory, Vasher's. So to me Warbreaker actually came after Way of Kings. But the connection goes back pretty far, further than you would first guess.

BlackYeti

Did he actually come from Nalthis and not Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm not going to actually answer that one-- Well I can answer that: yes he does come from Nalthis. It's pretty obvious that the way that the Breath's working, the reason he moved is because it's easier to get Stormlight than Breaths, and Stormlight can fuel being a Returned like him. And so yes, he was born on Nalthis. Becoming Returned without being born on Nalthis would be really hard.

source

Again, this only rules out Vasher, but it seems very unlikely that any of them are (and corroborates what @Crazy1993 said).

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Great first post!  Anyway, since aluminum can be soulcast I suspect Roshar will have easier and earlier access to it than other worlds with respect to their effective technological level, especially once Lightweavers/Elsecallers become more common.  The five scholars could probably have acquired aluminum on Roshar without too much difficulty, although it's not clear that Rosharans had much use for aluminum in the past.  That doesn't answer how the scholars knew about aluminum's strange interactions with investiture/magic systems.  To my knowledge we haven't seen any interaction between aluminum and awakening other than Nightblood's sheath.

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55 minutes ago, Ryder said:

That doesn't answer how the scholars knew about aluminum's strange interactions with investiture/magic systems.

The scientific method exists. All it takes is a few intriguing stories and an inquisitive mind(or two, or five). Yesteel invented Ichor-Alcohol for Lifeless, Shashara & Vasher created Nightblood(and proved the existence of Type IV Awakening in the process), they discovered the single breath command for making Lifeless, discovered a way to worldhop off Nalthis, Vasher learned a way to substitute Stormlight to fuel his Divine Breath, etc..

They patterned Nightblood after Shardblades, and Vasher used soulcasting corpses into stone as the inspiration for Kalad's Phantoms, so they clearly made an effort to learn some about things on places they visited. I don't see it as all that strange that they would hear something about Aluminum from a worldhopper and then test it out.


On 12/14/2017 at 11:26 PM, Nale said:

it seems to me to be fairly certain that the scholars would have also visited Scadrial on their trip and brought the aluminum back with them.

I'd actually pin this information on someone from Sel. The Scadrian timeline doesn't add up. Nightblood was made about 600 years before SA takes place(300 years back from SA to Warbreaker, and another 300 back to the Manywar). That'd be about 3 centuries before Era 1 Mistborn takes place, and I don't think anyone outside the Inquisitorius knew about Aluminum at that time.

Sel however, has Ralkalest. Elantris(book) should take place a few centuries before The Lord Ruler ascended and created the Final Empire. Sel has nearly 2 millennia to modernize from what we see in Elantris until we reach the time of SA, and they don't really have much/any Shardic conflict to screw with it. Look at how far Earth has gotten in the last 2,000 years, add magic, and tell me that Selish society shouldn't already be wandering the cosmos.

The magic of AonDor(and to a smaller extent Forgery) is literally programming, which is the very essence of trial and error. There are absolutely going to be people who say "Hey. Our magic doesn't work on this metal, so how about yours?" Add a Scholar going "Well, what about my magic?" and the rest is history.

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I hadn't considered timeline wise how much time would have passed on Sel.  We have seen a considerable number of Selian worldhoppers at this point as well, which does seem to solve a question of how easily the information can transfer.  I do wonder about the confirmed Selian worldhopper from the pure lake who was both contemporary of SA (of course) and of the events in Elantris (book).  Though perhaps he has become effectively immortal due to the shaod. 

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On 12/19/2017 at 6:51 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Sel has nearly 2 millennia to modernize from what we see in Elantris until we reach the time of SA, and they don't really have much/any Shardic conflict to screw with it. Look at how far Earth has gotten in the last 2,000 years, add magic, and tell me that Selish society shouldn't already be wandering the cosmos.

This isn't really related to the Five Scholars at all, but I would argue that magic actually would have the opposite effect.  The ease by which magic allows you to accomplish things can interfere with normal technological development.  Similar to how (Mistborn Era 2 spoilers)

Spoiler

Harmony says that the Scadrians technological development is extremely stunted.  

 

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Just now, Scion of the Mists said:

This isn't really related to the Five Scholars at all, but I would argue that magic actually would have the opposite effect.  The ease by which magic allows you to accomplish things can interfere with normal technological development.  Similar to how (Mistborn Era 2 spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

Harmony says that the Scadrians technological development is extremely stunted.  

You make a valid argument, but Elantrian magic is useful in different areas than the Metallic Arts are. Their tech tree will still have a lot of techs skipped "because magic," but it'll look vastly different.

For a proper example: communications. Roshar has Spanreeds, while Scadrial had to invent the telegraph. Elantrian magic and Roshar have Soulcasting(Aon Shao), while Scadrial has to improve their agriculture. Nalthis has awakened objects, while most of the other worlds will probably have to invent robotics(something the programming oriented Selish magic will probably have an advantage on). Scadrial will have a metal industry, while Roshar will be all about gemstones. Etc...


Tech progress is all about what the magic can't do/what tech can do better. And since magic easily allows one to skip entire segments of the tech tree, they can spend that time focusing on other areas. Elantrians can bypass all the time Edison & Co. spent inventing the lightbulb courtesy of Aon Ashe, and get a head start on something their magic can't do that easily. Take the countless days/years spent on earth researching medicines. With the advent of Gold Medallions, the Scadrian people can spend all that time focusing on more advanced things(if they had a shred of ambition in them).

"It is our goal to be stronger, to achieve our potential and not rest upon our laurels. We are the seekers, not the shepherds." —Yuthura Ban
To purposely quote the Sith, this is where Scadrial messed up. They got complacent, and rested on what they were given, rather than trying to achieve even more. Given that Selish magics require a good bit more learning and effort than the instinctual Allomancy, I imagine Sel wont have the same problem(or at least, not to the same extent).

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