Official Star Wars Episode VIII Spoiler Topic

[Ammanas]

55 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

Looking forward to your thoughts about that cave scene, I have to admit I (and most of my friends) found it confusing and/or pointless.

I know you were not looking for my opinion, but I think the cave scene served two purposes.

1. It drew attention the parallells of Rey and Luke. They both had to descend into the cave and face their temptations/demons.

2. I think the cave is the dark sides best shot of corrupting the jedi. If they can withstand that then they will withstand anything and not go down the path on Anakin and Kylo Ren. I think facing down that temptation is a important step in a jedis maturation process. I think the dark forces in the cave were hoping that not showing her a portrayal of her parents would add to her agony and doubt which would lead to her going to the dark side.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ammanas

[Khyrindor]

2 hours ago, Ammanas said:

I know you were not looking for my opinion, but I think the cave scene served two purposes.

1. It drew attention the parallells of Rey and Luke. They both had to descend into the cave and face their temptations/demons.

2. I think the cave is the dark sides best shot of corrupting the jedi. If they can withstand that then they will withstand anything and not go down the path on Anakin and Kylo Ren. I think facing down that temptation is a important step in a jedis maturation process. I think the dark forces in the cave were hoping that not showing her a portrayal of her parents would add to her agony and doubt which would lead to her going to the dark side.

Okay, yeah that makes sense.

[Kaymyth]

4 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

I agree with that for the most part, but I do wish we had more chewy than just that.

Looking forward to your thoughts about that cave scene, I have to admit I (and most of my friends) found it confusing and/or pointless.

I have a couple of lines of thought about this, and while they're not entirely mutually exclusive, it's not inconceivable that one is more correct than the other.

3 hours ago, Ammanas said:

I know you were not looking for my opinion, but I think the cave scene served two purposes.

1. It drew attention the parallells of Rey and Luke. They both had to descend into the cave and face their temptations/demons.

2. I think the cave is the dark sides best shot of corrupting the jedi. If they can withstand that then they will withstand anything and not go down the path on Anakin and Kylo Ren. I think facing down that temptation is a important step in a jedis maturation process. I think the dark forces in the cave were hoping that not showing her a portrayal of her parents would add to her agony and doubt which would lead to her going to the dark side.

This feeds into the first line I have about it. I think in every Jedi's training, they have to be set up to face the temptation of the Dark Side. For Luke it was the tree on Dagobah, and it scared the everliving crem out of him. "Oooo, Luke, face your greatest fear...YOURSELF! Dun, dun dunnn!"

So this grotto on Luke's planet has probably been used for this purpose for generations of Jedi. It has a job to do, and dagnabbit, it's been ages since it actually got to do it. So it calls out to Rey, saying, "Hey, kid, come take a look at this cool thing I got for ya..." So of course she went in to check it out. But - and this is important - she did so without fear. Yoda himself has said that fear is the path to the Dark Side (and in general, while Rey often acts with emotion, she doesn't seem to have a lot of fear in her makeup). So Rey went in, said, "Hey, yo, I have questions." The cave said, "Oooo, lookit me, I'm spooky!" Rey was unimpressed and the cave didn't really know what to do with her, so it pulled out the favorite trope of "You fear yourself and your nothingness!" and it just didn't work. Rey came out of the experience unshaken, if a bit perturbed by the whole thing. So that poor cave has to live with the humiliation that the best it could manage to muster was annoying the first Jedi-in-training it had seen in decades, if not centuries.

The second tack:

The cave was perhaps genuinely sort of trying to help (at least in its own definition of "helping"), and showed Rey the truth - that her parentage isn't what makes her special. Who she is comes from the choices she has made. She's the sort of person who will build up a giant fantasy about a family that loves her and is coming for her rather than face the fact that she was abandoned and hate them for it.

By the time she does face that truth, she has already found what she was looking for. She has a family - a family of choice, and a cause she cares about. The realization about her parentage doesn't feed into her anger, but stokes the kinship and love she has found for the people she has found. Finn, who fought for her. Han, who mentored her. Leia, who embraced her immediately upon meeting her out of sheer motherly instinct, that this girl was someone who needed her.

Either way, or a combination of the two, the result is the same - Rey isn't even tempted by the Dark Side. She held the power, let it flow through her, and let it go again without harm. Her hesitation at Ben's offer isn't desire to join him, it's sadness that she couldn't save him. As much anger as she had for him at the beginning of the movie, she let it go without hardship, and genuinely mourned the loss of who Ben could have been. Her choices never wavered.

Rey is what the Force has been trying to find all along - balance. She can put an end to the endless Jedi-Sith war cycles.

[Khyrindor]

9 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

I have a couple of lines of thought about this, and while they're not entirely mutually exclusive, it's not inconceivable that one is more correct than the other.

This feeds into the first line I have about it. I think in every Jedi's training, they have to be set up to face the temptation of the Dark Side. For Luke it was the tree on Dagobah, and it scared the everliving crem out of him. "Oooo, Luke, face your greatest fear...YOURSELF! Dun, dun dunnn!"

So this grotto on Luke's planet has probably been used for this purpose for generations of Jedi. It has a job to do, and dagnabbit, it's been ages since it actually got to do it. So it calls out to Rey, saying, "Hey, kid, come take a look at this cool thing I got for ya..." So of course she went in to check it out. But - and this is important - she did so without fear. Yoda himself has said that fear is the path to the Dark Side (and in general, while Rey often acts with emotion, she doesn't seem to have a lot of fear in her makeup). So Rey went in, said, "Hey, yo, I have questions." The cave said, "Oooo, lookit me, I'm spooky!" Rey was unimpressed and the cave didn't really know what to do with her, so it pulled out the favorite trope of "You fear yourself and your nothingness!" and it just didn't work. Rey came out of the experience unshaken, if a bit perturbed by the whole thing. So that poor cave has to live with the humiliation that the best it could manage to muster was annoying the first Jedi-in-training it had seen in decades, if not centuries.

The second tack:

The cave was perhaps genuinely sort of trying to help (at least in its own definition of "helping"), and showed Rey the truth - that her parentage isn't what makes her special. Who she is comes from the choices she has made. She's the sort of person who will build up a giant fantasy about a family that loves her and is coming for her rather than face the fact that she was abandoned and hate them for it.

By the time she does face that truth, she has already found what she was looking for. She has a family - a family of choice, and a cause she cares about. The realization about her parentage doesn't feed into her anger, but stokes the kinship and love she has found for the people she has found. Finn, who fought for her. Han, who mentored her. Leia, who embraced her immediately upon meeting her out of sheer motherly instinct, that this girl was someone who needed her.

Either way, or a combination of the two, the result is the same - Rey isn't even tempted by the Dark Side. She held the power, let it flow through her, and let it go again without harm. Her hesitation at Ben's offer isn't desire to join him, it's sadness that she couldn't save him. As much anger as she had for him at the beginning of the movie, she let it go without hardship, and genuinely mourned the loss of who Ben could have been. Her choices never wavered.

Rey is what the Force has been trying to find all along - balance. She can put an end to the endless Jedi-Sith war cycles.

Again, thank you for typing out such a well thought-out post. I think both are good for the story and make sense. It makes me wonder if Dagobah's tree was set up in a similar way by Yoda, or if it was the reason Yoda settled there. I also wonder what the Coruscant equivalent is.

[Ammanas]

15 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

It makes me wonder if Dagobah's tree was set up in a similar way by Yoda, or if it was the reason Yoda settled there. 

During the Great Jedi Purge, Yoda realized that proximity to the Dark Side Cave could help neutralize his strong light side Force signature—thus preventing his detection by the Sith—and took up residence near the cave, living there for the next two decades, through the reign of the Galactic Empire. 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Side_Cave

[Khyrindor]

1 minute ago, Ammanas said:

During the Great Jedi Purge, Yoda realized that proximity to the Dark Side Cave could help neutralize his strong light side Force signature—thus preventing his detection by the Sith—and took up residence near the cave, living there for the next two decades, through the reign of the Galactic Empire. 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Side_Cave

Hah, glad to know I was onto something!

[Kaymyth]

23 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

Again, thank you for typing out such a well thought-out post. I think both are good for the story and make sense. It makes me wonder if Dagobah's tree was set up in a similar way by Yoda, or if it was the reason Yoda settled there. I also wonder what the Coruscant equivalent is.

I doubt that they kept a Dark Side grotto on Coruscant - there's not enough nature left there. They probably sent Padawans who had reached the appropriate age of testing offworld to do it.

[MonsterMetroid]

So I finally saw The last Jedi tonight... and I still need time to process it but my first reaction is it was a good movie, but a bad Star Wars movie. I will post more tomorrow as it definitely appears I'm in the minority here and I need to think about it more.

[Farnsworth]

So, is the answe to the Star Wats Test (how many SW movies are there) still 3? Or is the answer now 5?

[insert_anagram_here]

I loved The Last Jedi movie. Yes, it had low points, but overall I loved it and enjoyed it so much I wanted to watch it again when the credits rolled.

I especially loved how the first part was paralleled to the original IV and V episodes, but the second part (on Crait) was a thing of its own, visually spectacular and powerful and bringing the series into another era. Force Awakens was about reviving the fandom and it made sense that it reminded us so much about the original movies, but The Last Jedi is the turning point, preparing us to where Disney is planning on taking us from now on.

Granted I'm not the fandom's most biggest fan, who goes out to read canon and non-canon novels and watch the cartoon series for the sake of the story but, frankly, the movies were not made for just those people. You need to watch each movie as a thing of its own, that can bring new fans into the franchise, and that doesn't happen with suckling on the same tropes that have been done for generations.

A lot of people are upset about the Poe's / the Canto Bight plan failure and how Luke reappears defeated, weak and estranged in this sequel. These people need to re-watch it, because they were so caught up on their own expectations that they failed to pay attention to what the movie was about. The point of the movie is Failure and how we need to accept and learn from our mistakes in order to come back stronger. That's the way we get retribution from the past or become more powerful. ("Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. It's the only way to become what you were meant to be.)

On the other hand, I have a few strong points I was not satisfied with, mainly screen time of main characters VS supportive characters.

I understand that they wanted to introduce Rose into this movie, but the side quest with Finn took way too much time that did not offer any character depth but, at most, lukewarm comedy and pokemon mounts. If I was a director, I would montage a lot of that in the crem pile. 

Another thing that bothers me is that we had amazing performances by Mark Hamill and Adam Driver that we couldn't get enough, why didn't we have any more of that? Two of our main characters have experienced a turning point in their lives during that flashback Jedi training, but it was all limited to a couple of screens we already deduced from the trailers. This was the point were they would explain why Ben rebelled against his Jedi training, why he turned into Kylo Ren and why he ultimately killed his own father. I mean, this movie was ultimately leading us to Luke's death, maybe we needed a better explanation, better character buildup, of how he indeed failed Ben, in order to accept a necessary death for retribution. Instead we got a triple take on a single moment in time (Luke waking Ben in the middle of the night) which, frankly, is misleading in a lot of inappropriate ways and cheapens the plot dynamic.

Edited December 20, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[MonsterMetroid]

So I have thought about it talked about it with some of my friends/ family and I have warmed to the movie somewhat. I actually like what @insert_anagram_here said about the Rose finn issue. 

On 12/20/2017 at 2:11 AM, insert_anagram_here said:

I understand that they wanted to introduce Rose into this movie, but the side quest with Finn took way too much time that did not offer any character depth but, at most, lukewarm comedy and pokemon mounts. If I was a director, I would montage a lot of that in the crem pile. 

While it offered a look at some of the most interesting parts of the movie to me in the end it feels like it takes WAY too much time for how little of importance it was. It didnt accomplish anything besides "war profiteers are bad" message.

I was originally offended by the way they portrayed Luke, he is a flipping hero! But I warmed to that somewhat as well and I really wanted more of him acting cause he KILLED it in this movie!!!! I feel like given more time with the character would have really helped unite people around luke.

But one thing I can not get over is continuity issues...

This movie went a drastically different direction and did some really AWESOME things! But in doing so it removes an element of immersion from the universe from me.

First and biggest is what Holdo did to Snokes ship. This was one of the coolest things I have seen in movies recently and at the time it made sense to me!!! But then... like changing a magic system halfway through a book it completely threw the immersion out of wack.

Take a look at this reddit thread created before the movie. 

Lot of questions come from this all of a sudden like... Why in episode 7 were they able to warp through a shield. Why didnt they crash a ship into the Death Star? Why build a Death Star if someone could just crash a ship into it? Why build a death star if you could just crash a ship into a planet? Where are the FTL torpedoes? 

The answer to all of this is in the past they traveled through Hyperspace, for this forum you could kind of view it as a different realm, a different dimension. They dont interact with the physical realm until they come out of lightspeed. But this one scene changes all that canon and in the wake... well yeah.

The changes to the Force powers start to feel like Non-Brandon form of magic where "hey deus ex machina" the force can do that now. Though Yoda with the lightning was awesome.

And personally I didn't like the move from good versus Evil to hey anakin was right "from my perspective the jedi are evil" sort of greyscale message they were trying to sell me but that's personal.

So I enjoy the Movie, I would have enjoyed it more if it wasnt a Star wars movie because 4, 5, and 6 are nearly sacred texts for me and this movie felt like it was trying to say "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That's the only way to become what you were meant to be."

and no-one, not even George Lucas, can kill the originals for me.

Edited December 21, 2017 by MonsterMetroid
fixed spelling error

[Kaymyth]

51 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Take a look at this reddit thread created before the movie. 

Lot of questions come from this all of a sudden like... Why in episode 7 were they able to warp through a shield. Why didnt they crash a ship into the Death Star? Why build a Death Star if someone could just crash a ship into it? Why build a death star if you could just crash a ship into a planet? Where are the FTL torpedoes? 

 

1) A ship cannot crash into a planet while at lightspeed. The gravity well pulls the ship out of hyperspace before it can hit.

2) Probably the same deal with the Death Star - it has a big enough gravity well that it's functionally a moon.

3) I would love to see some hypedrive torpedoes next movie.

[MonsterMetroid]

2 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

1) A ship cannot crash into a planet while at lightspeed. The gravity well pulls the ship out of hyperspace before it can hit.

2) Probably the same deal with the Death Star - it has a big enough gravity well that it's functionally a moon.

You are right about both these things from the context of past the past movies. That why these things are so dangerous to plot courses through because you would be pulled out of hyperspace possibly into a star or the center of a planet. But this just serves my point event more, according to the traditional rules of hyperspace 

Quote

Hyperdrives manipulated hypermatter particles in order to thrust a starship into hyperspace^[1] by taking advantage of the wrinkles in the fabric of realspace,^[source?] whilst still preserving the ship's mass/energy profile.^[1] This shortens journeying distance significantly, allowing the vessel to "jump" from a specific point to another point without having to travel directly between them, therefore reducing journey time by an extraordinarily large margin.

source

So traditionally Holdo's ship would have warped on the other side of the ship, harmlessly. This is why Star wars doesn't have Hyperdrive torpedoes, or suicide tie fighters because the Science doesn't allow it. And if we assume that that ship is big enough for a gravity well and that's why it was able to interact with it then all ships and the death star would be susceptible as well.

[anna]

I saw TLJ on Saturday, and I was wondering about the hyperspace thing as well.  Is it possible that the hyperspace tracking system on Snoke's ship causes it to exist partially in hyperspace (sort of like Lift in the cognitive realm)?  Maybe that's how Holdo's ship was able to interact with it.

I enjoyed the movie overall, but it definitely felt like a mashup of Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.  Does this mean that Episode 9 is going to be a mashup of the three prequel movies?

[Kaymyth]

6 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

You are right about both these things from the context of past the past movies. That why these things are so dangerous to plot courses through because you would be pulled out of hyperspace possibly into a star or the center of a planet. But this just serves my point event more, according to the traditional rules of hyperspace 

So traditionally Holdo's ship would have warped on the other side of the ship, harmlessly. This is why Star wars doesn't have Hyperdrive torpedoes, or suicide tie fighters because the Science doesn't allow it. And if we assume that that ship is big enough for a gravity well and that's why it was able to interact with it then all ships and the death star would be susceptible as well.

Unless her target coordinates were Snoke's ship itself. It'd be a short jump, but coming out of hyperspace into something solid would be very bad for everything involved.

[Briar King]

I don’t think that’s Hyperspace works in SW though. The gravity well stuff is from EU unless Nu has it in. I don’t read those. Han talks about running into things in 4 without the proper course. Holdo probably just hit go.

interdictor class ships are in Rebels I just remembered 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Briar King

[PlanetReelo]

I really loved the movie. It was marvellous to behold, the characters endearing, and fresh without sacrificing too much of the familiar in my opinion. Kylo and Rey were the main stars for me, and though the ending feels resolute in terms of Kylo turning to the darkness, I can't help but hope that he will find redemption. I've been lurking on the Jedi Council forums since I watched it, and am largely unsurprised by the intensity of backlash it's received. The main issues seem to be the following;

1) Rey being a nobody - I actually loved this development. And it's hard for me to understand why so many fans insist that she be a Skywalker/Solo/Kenobi, and I don't think her worth as a protagonist is tied to her lineage. The extent of anger over this makes me wonder if JJ Abrams will pander to the fans and reverse the decision in E9, as it was left in a way that would allow for this. I really hope not though! I hate when fans have that much sway over the progression of a story.

2) Leia flying through space like superman - To be fair, I didn't particularly enjoy this either.

3) Luke Skywalker's end - I was okay with this, if a little sad. I'm fine with the fact that the OT characters are slowly being phased out to make way for the new generation. I think the general consensus on the JC forums is that people expected him to have greater involvement in episodes 8 and 9. They felt that his death wasn't befitting of a jedi (Yoda anyone?) and indeed that many of his actions were out of character (refusing to help Rey, considering killing Kylo Ren in the hut etc). But i'm actually glad that he didn't stay the same for 30 years, and that he's become a more jaded person. It makes sense given everything he's been through.

All in all, I do believe that the SW fandom can be toxic at times and it made me glad to be a part of one as civilised as this. But it also highlighted the way that fans can raise their expectations sky high through theorising between movies, only to lash out when their fantasies aren't realised. I hope RJ doesn't get too much crap from fans, as I think he did a great job.

[mattig89ch]

First and foremost, I saw the movie the other day.  Now I agree with most of this:

 

 

but not all of it.

Overall, I'd give the movie a 6/10.  Slightly above average, but not raising to the level of the previous ones.  And feeling like nobody on set knew the lore of this franchise at all.

Edited December 21, 2017 by mattig89ch

[MonsterMetroid]

3 hours ago, PlanetReelo said:

The extent of anger over this makes me wonder if JJ Abrams will pander to the fans and reverse the decision in E9, as it was left in a way that would allow for this.

Its entirely possible and I hope it does happen, because Kylo Ren could easily be lying. I mean to tease us with images of a ship flying off in episode 7 and saying that they are just poor junkers makes it feel like a shaggy dog story to me.

[Kaymyth]

1 hour ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Its entirely possible and I hope it does happen, because Kylo Ren could easily be lying. I mean to tease us with images of a ship flying off in episode 7 and saying that they are just poor junkers makes it feel like a shaggy dog story to me.

Everyone keeps going on about how Kylo might have been lying. But he didn't tell Rey who her parents were - he encouraged her to say it herself. When she did, he simply confirmed it.

[Briar King]

Hes a dark sider. He was manipulating her to join him. That’s how I saw it so I’m not tripping like some people. 

[MonsterMetroid]

13 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

Everyone keeps going on about how Kylo might have been lying. But he didn't tell Rey who her parents were - he encouraged her to say it herself. When she did, he simply confirmed it.

Hmm I guess I will have to re-watch it then 

16 hours ago, Briar King said:

Han talks about running into things in 4 without the proper course.

Quote

Han Solo: Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it.

He does talk about running into things, but both of these would have immense Gravity wells pulling them out of hyperspace and then incinerating them.

There is also this:

Quote

[the Millennium Falcon emerges from hyperspace]

Han Solo: What the-? We've come out of hyperspace into a meteor shower, some kind of asteroid collision. It's not on any of the charts!

Which with the new interpretation of traveling FTL rather than through Hyperspace would probably mean that the falcon would have hit one of the asteroid and bye bye falcon.

And I don't mean to belabor and I will drop it now. I just mean that the hyperspace science was there for a reason because if you have it go the other way if a ship hit a pebble or a piece of paper from a garbage dump it would be the end for that ship, making lightspeed travel completely unrealistic.

Edited December 21, 2017 by MonsterMetroid
fixed grammer

[Iarwainiel I]

Searched this thread & didn't see where anyone else had posted this...

Am I the only one who (OB spoiler, just in case)

Spoiler

... kept thinking "Jasnah could do this stuff way better than a Jedi." Srsly, both Light and Dark sides of the Force are badly in need Transformation/Soul Casting.

I really like the movie & plan to see it again. Avoiding all trailers, spoilers, and theorizing, and just letting the movie be itself, really paid off, for me at least. There's planty of time for fanfic later (e.g., detailed theorizing can turn into fanfic, which is fun if that's what you want). Just my 2 cents.

Edited December 21, 2017 by old aggie
addition

[Julio]

The movie was very good, and, in my mind anyway, redeems the new trilogy. That said, I expected it to do so, so that wasn't a surprise at all. 

My favourite part. Luke (we don't know it yet, but he's a force projection) is walking out the blown open door of the base. And Darth Vader's theme starts playing. 

Well, not exactly Darth's theme, but it was worked into it. That was AMAZING. 

[Andy92]

I saw the movie a second time and thought it was better on second viewing. Once you strip away the expectations and enjoy the story that's being told, for me it ended up being an 8/10 movie. 

The biggest issue with this movie was still the Resistance vs. First Order plot line for me. At first I think I judged this plot improperly though to be fair. It's really the equivalent of a siege (ala Well of Ascension plot), just in space. I still think it's not as exciting as the plots we've seen in previous movies, but if they were going for the siege war movie feel, they did it decently well. 

Love, love, love Adam Driver's performance in this movie. The Luke/Rey/Ben saga was ace. If the other part of the film was more like what they did in Rogue One with the space battles, it would probably be at least a 9/10 for me.