03.03.2014 - The Edge of Redepmtion, Ch 1

[manaheim]

Hi. Thanks for taking the time to comment.

[andyk]

I like the idea of this as an opening scene. Candace is an interesting character, and the cop's interest in her creates an unusual conflict. It throws her in at the deep end of a potentially very tricky situation without having to get into an action scene, and that mkes a good start.

 

That said I had two quite big problems with the scene, and they're related.

 

The first was that Candace's interest in the cop felt really over-sold. Most of the chapter seemed to be dominated by her thinking about how much she was attracted to him, occasionally interspersed with worrying about his being a cop. I got the idea by the end of the first page, and I'm afraid that after that the continued dwelling on her interest in him got off-putting. A little of this stuff goes a long way.

 

And because so much time was spent on this not much else seemed to happen, either to Candace or in revealing more about who she was and what she was up to. The stuff with the wings was intriguing, and hinted at something beyond just tattoos. The references to one last job also caught my attention, but because they were vague they didn't really get my imagination going. And it seemed like her main professional relationship was with her father, but again there was no more about this.

 

It feels like this might benefit from changing the balance of the scene to more about what she's planning and less about the cop, or maybe less on how she views him and more conversation between them. But it's definitely got potential, and I'm curious about what Candace is up to.

[Kuiper]

On the first page, I was left with the question of how exactly Candace was able to identify the plainclothes cop as such.  An explanation like "she was able to identify the cop because she is skilled at identifying cops" comes across as circular and doesn't really satisfy my curiosity.  Something as simple as "The way he walked" would have sufficed to address this concern, but having no explanation left me a bit distracted by the lingering question.

 

There are certain segments which are more "tell" than "show," and in these places it feels like the scene is really broken by extensive summary.  An example:

 

"...spoke with an air of familiarity to the girl behind it.  Pleantries were entangled with a coffee order...He tahnked her with a smile, and a nice tip."

 

Some degree of summary is okay.  For example, "the cop ordered a coffee" without an explicit recounting of all the actions that implies is fine, as it succinctly communicates a point.  However, when summary goes on and on, describing the rapport the cop has with the barista, that draws me out of the scene.  If this information is really important in building up the cop as a character, then maybe it part of the scene, rather than summary.  And if it's not really important, then condense it.  As it is, it just feels verbose.

 

During the officer's approach, I felt a dissonance in Candice's mental state/behavior.  We get a picture of Candice being paranoid in a state of frenzied panic, trying to devise an escape plan on the fly, yet at the same time she comes across as very contemplative, observant, and sarcastic, based on the lengthy descriptions of the cop's behavior and features and her constant eye rolling.

 

Minor annoyances:

 

Candice rolls her eyes with distracting frequency.

 

"Thirty second glance" seems like a contradiction in terms.

 

 

 

I found myself enjoying the story significantly more after the encounter with the cop.  Candice's decision to help the Italian lady and the ensuing exchange speak volumes louder about her character than most of her internal monologuing.  Ditto for the sequence with her tipping the college age girl, wanting to be generous, but not give too much to avoid drawing attention to herself.  I want to see Candice in action, because when she's engaging with the world around her and not just living inside her head, she really seems like an interesting and likable character.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Kuiper

[manaheim]

Wow, these are wonderfully helpful comments, folks. You highlighted some areas that I now realize were bugging me... and I couldn't put a finger on why. I've got some thinking to do and then I'll launch back into this one.  Thank you!

[Mandamon]

Welcome to Reading Excuses!  

 

My comments are similar to those above, and I think it's telling we all came up with the same points when reading this:

 

pg 1: "She was a woman, after all."

--I would cut this line.  It can lead to a world of trouble in assumptions, gender roles, perceived chauvinism...  Especially since you haven't yet identified the cop as male, I was confused why you needed to make this remark and at first assumed the cop was the one that was female.

 

There's a lot of purple adjectives included:

tantalizing aroma

warm arms

ridiculous false promise

swarthy doom

these are all from one paragraph.  You might want to tone it down a little.  It starts to sound more like a Harlequin than a Fantasy novel.

 

The tone for most of the piece comes of more as a romance than the beginning of a fantasy.  I might have to check to make sure I didn't get the wrong book.  I'm not saying romance is bad, but andyk makes the point well when he says Candice dwells too much on her attraction to the cop.  About halfway through, I was ready to punch him.  I don't care how good looking he is, this gets into the "no means no" territory.  Anyone who came on that strong I would suspect of an ulterior and not very nice motive.  Couldn't Candice just have said "sorry, I'm not interested" and left?  I don't think that would have put too much suspicion on her.

 

Again, as andyk said, there's too much emphasis on the cop, and not enough on what/who Candice is and why we should be interested.

 

I did think the end was a good hook, but the reader would have to get there first. It has potential, but needs to be streamlined a bit.

[manaheim]

I hope responding to comments with a bit more detail isn't considered gauche... let me know if so.

 

"She was a woman after all". Ugh, that was a recent addition during one of my edits. I hadn't considered the chauvinistic elements. Great point.

 

These are all such wonderful comments. Thank you all so much.

 

When I started this I was trying to make clear that she was interested in him, so I wanted that to feel real, and I think I just pushed it way too hard. I can totally see the romance vs fantasy thing, and that's a big problem.

 

I've spent an hour or so going over this and have cut down that one crazy paragraph with all the purple prose, tightened up the part with Seth talking to the barista, pulling out some of the internal dialogue, toning down her being so over the top into him, etc. 

 

I'm now going to spend some time replacing some of that with a bit more information about what she's up to, her Dad, etc. I don't want to get too much of that in there or I'll wind up swinging in the other direction, but I definitely see some opportunities for layering in some items.

 

Again, thank you all so much!

[hawkedup]

For some reason I didn't get this...

[manaheim]

I can send it to you if you like. I have your email from your submission.  (which I am 1/2 way through, btw)

[Robinski]

Welcome to Reading Excuses. I’d like to apologise in advance for my critique. I'm a nice guy, really I am.

 

Please have a salt shaker handy and apply pinches liberally, to taste. [Ed: Also, look out for the sequel.]

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

Page 1 – Who or what is Eddie Bauer?

 

Page 1 – I don’t know what ‘futzed’ means. I can get it from the context, but I wouldn’t say it’s a commonly used word – made me stop and go back.

 

Page 2 – ‘...she shook her head, and freed herself from the trap that her mind had laid for her.’ Very elaborate phrase. Ok, I'm terrible for this myself (ask Andyk and Mandamon!), but I'm gradually learning that simple is usually more effective.

 

Page 2 – Why are the customers anxious?

 

Page 2 – How do you ‘brace’ a pleasantry?

 

Page 2 – Must say she has done a terrible job of avoiding his attention, given that she’s a career criminal, by looking at him the whole time from when he came in the door. Perhaps it’s because she’s unable to resist his magnetism. So far, I'm getting a Mills & Boon vibe – which is not my thing. I'm hoping for some conflict or action soon. I can’t say that it’s grabbed my attention.

 

Page 2 – The words ‘dreamy’ and ‘swarthy doom’ (really?) have pretty much switched me off. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be laughing at this point, but I am.

 

Page 3 – LOL, I do like the ‘log cabins’ line – in a good way.

 

Page 3 – Why is she disgusted when she admitted the inevitability of the attraction on Page 1? Self loathing, I suppose.

 

Page 3 – ‘...he was standing close enough to hear her heart thumping wildly in her ears.’ That would be some trick hearing!

 

Page 6 – I'm having trouble believing that a hardened career criminal – wanted by the law – would go into a coffee shop before her last job, for me it stretched credibility to its limit – if she wasn’t wanted, maybe – but not if there are mug-shots of her in the local police station, surely.

 

Page 6 – ‘Looking (into?) them was akin to peering into a cave, and wondering at the treasures that were almost certainly hidden in its mysterious chasms. Thankfully, he raised his coffee and took a sip; breaking his hold on her before she stepped in, and was lost forever. He winced. Even that simple expression was adorable, and she fought down the freakish urge to jump in his lap.’

 

This is the point at which I stopped reading. What audience are you aiming at here? I get no sense of anything fantastical, supernatural or SF. Which is fine of course, but if that’s the case, then I'm not your audience, sorry. If this is an urban fantasy / SF, then I think you need to signpost that on Page 1 or 2. It’s not that I haven’t read other stuff (Jeffery Archer, Stieg Larsson, Alistair MacLean, Irving Welsh, etc.), but it just doesn’t interest me that much.

 

I did find the (part) chapter well written in terms of your style, although, for me, there was too much of Candace’s thoughts, which slowed things down, and there was maybe a bit too much description of each and every action, which I think can be a bit wearing after a while. Also, putting aside my genre prejudices, I think in any genre the hardened criminal falling head-over-heels in lust and spending page after page drooling after a stereotypical magazine hunk is a miscalculation.

 

Best of luck with your project – I'm sure you’ll get useful crits from others on the forum. Sorry to not be of more help.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Robinski

[Robinski]

Reading the critiques from others now, it sounds like there is perhaps some more interesting stuff to come, so I’ve gone back to Page 6 to pick up again.

Page 7 – I liked the ‘onto her / into her’ line – clever. The latter ‘could be’ deadly I would have thought.

Page 7 – If Candace has any self respect she gets up and leaves after the line ‘Your just being here is

exactly what I needed today.’ This guy is the corniest thing since the Jolly Green Giant.

Page 8 – For me “So,” she breathed, “I guess I’m not sure what you’re after. I’m just on a break, trying to enjoy my coffee.” is the most convincing line of dialogue so far. It’s simple, direct and honest. The guy’s dialogue sounds comical.

Page 9 – ‘...intimidating beauty.’ I don’t believe anybody would think of them self in those terms.

Page 11 – ‘...dusky-hued woman of mystery…’ – ugh, even Pepe Le Pew has better lines than this guy.

Page 15 – I'm not sure how to say this in a kind way, so I’ll go for no holds barred. I think Seth’s dialogue is ludicrous. It’s terribly corny and that makes it unconvincing, but Candace’s reaction to it is the clincher. No woman is going to hear those cheesy lines and take them seriously – she should be rolling on the floor laughing. There’s no sense of irony in the delivery.

Page 17 – For me there’s a disconnect here. We’re seventeen pages in and I have no respect for Candace at all. She’s flighty; lacking commitment to her career; no strength of character and very little self-respect in letting herself be taken in by such a shallow approach. Worst of all, she’s a criminal, a thief who could be steeling my money – why should I feel any sympathy towards her?

Then, in the space of a page, Candace has shown sensitivity and understanding to two strangers, in a way that feels real and convincing.

Page 19 – ‘...gas guzzling monster of steel and chrome...’ I don’t think you need to overdo the description, it delays the point of the car’s impact, and we already know it’s a Cadillac.

I'm glad I came back and read on. As usual, Mandamon was there several days before me on the comparison with Harlequin, or Mills & Boon as we have (had?) in the UK. I felt a palpable sense of relief after Seth left and Candace began to interact with other people.

Those interactions felt so much more real. For my ten cents, I think you need to re-write Seth completely. Candace seems to be intelligent and streetwise, do you really think it’s credible that she would wall for someone like that? He really does only exist in catalogues. I think if you look at convincing relationships in fiction, most of the male halves are brooding, flawed, possibly repressed. You might say that’s become the stereotype, but I think it’s that way because it works, whereas the perfect all-American hero is boring.

Of course, the ultimate test would be to try out that dialogue on real women – I dare you.

Now that Seth’s out the way (hopefully), I find myself looking forward to seeing where this goes (hopefully far away from Seth) in Chapter 2.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Robinski

[manaheim]

Great feedback, thank you.  You hit very strongly on some very serious weaknesses that I -hope- I have already corrected (in the version you don't have) , and introduced some new ones as well.  Thanks so much for taking the time and the patience to slog through it.   Ch2 will be better, I promise.

[manaheim]

So I re-wrote this chapter.  I'm tempted to send it out again, but I'm ascared. lol

 

I didn't change everything.  Most notably Seth's dialogue. I did tweak it a bit, but he's sort of supposed to be a little unusual and a touch stiff. I did attempt to have Candace react to it a little bit to take some of the edge off of it... it's very much her to do so anyway.

 

I ripped out a lot of the excessive description.

 

Most importantly, I heavily rebalanced this towards him having her attention, but mostly her just trying to stay the hell out of jail.

 

I think it's much stronger now.  Can't thank you all enough for your comments.