hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[OB] Shadesmar, Spren Economics and Spren Children

47 posts in this topic

I am loving the Dalinar, but I'd be tempted to call it the Dal'ar.  I'm also wondering in whom we trust, though I suppose most would still say the Almighty.  I'd like to say Adonalsium, but that probably wouldn't fit!  And I'd love to say "The United Princedoms of Alethkar" on the 10,000 Dal'ars and have that actually be true.

Those are some crazy beautiful monetary units, @hoiditthroughthegrapevine!

Even though there is a very definite and natural fluctuation in the current gem monetary system, there is an odd stability (a cycle) in that fluctuation.  And there could be an artificial fluctuation in a paper system.  I prefer natural fluctuation that reflects current supply and demand rather than a system that is more easily manipulated by artificially imposed fluctuation. 

I long for the days when we at least had gold to match the paper.  Now, if we run out of money, we just print more.  I do love that the spheres of Roshar have all of the practical uses listed above, where gold coins were impractical.

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55 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Even though there is a very definite and natural fluctuation in the current gem monetary system, there is an odd stability (a cycle) in that fluctuation.  And there could be an artificial fluctuation in a paper system.  I prefer natural fluctuation that reflects current supply and demand rather than a system that is more easily manipulated by artificially imposed fluctuation. 

I long for the days when we at least had gold to match the paper.  Now, if we run out of money, we just print more.  I do love that the spheres of Roshar have all of the practical uses listed above, where gold coins were impractical.

The fluctuation isn't reflecting supply and demand though but the cycle of Highstorms. On the second point about the gold standard, this isn't really the place for this discussion but gold standards are a terrible idea. There is only ever finite amounts of a commodity but economies have infinite capacity to grow so one should have a currency whose supply can be adjusted to fit the demands of the economy. And the point about just printing more is the beauty of fiat currencies. It means governments can spend as much money as they like without having to worry about arbitrary constraints such as deficits but are instead only limited by the real capacity of the economy. If Rosharan governments had a fiscal architecture which allowed them to borrow unlimited amounts of money then it would be much easier to finance opposition to Desolations

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Another Shadesmar-related economic ponderable (spoiler-tagging the supporting argument for brevity):

Spoiler

 

In the Shadesmar lighthouse, Riino the oracle is surprised when Kaladin is able to interact with his orb:

Quote

"How? Impossible. Unless... you're Invested. What Heightening are you?" He squinted at Kaladin. "No. Something else. Merciful Domi... A Surgebinder? It has begun again?"

This means either:

  1. Riino initially assumed Kaladin was Nalthian and had Breaths, or
  2. Riino initially assumed Kaladin had Breaths but was not Nalthian, which would imply:
    1. It's possible for non-Nalthians to acquire Breath (we may already know this, I'm not sure)
    2. Enough people are running around in Shadesmar with Breaths that somebody from Sel jumps to that as the most likely explanation for somebody's unexpected Investiture

 

Assuming it's possible for non-Nalthians to have Breath, it would make sense for lots of worldhoppers to eventually acquire some--Breaths are useful, and they don't run out.

How big would demand for Breath in Shadesmar have to be to produce a noticeable effect on the Nalthian Breath economy? Keeping in mind that they're already losing a non-trivial number of Breaths to feeding all those Returned, as well as people dying while non-Drab.

Edited by digitalbusker
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10 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

How big would demand for Breath in Shadesmar have to be to produce a noticeable effect on the Nalthian Breath economy? Keeping in mind that they're already losing a non-trivial number of Breaths to feeding all those Returned, as well as people dying while non-Drab.

I think much depends on two things, the rate of population growth in Nalthis because that determines how many new breaths are being created and the percentage of new breaths that are entering the market because these two together account for much (most?) of the supply side of the equation

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32 minutes ago, Dlyol said:

The fluctuation isn't reflecting supply and demand though but the cycle of Highstorms. 

Stormlight supply and demand is what I meant.  As the demand for Stormlight rises, so does the value of the infused gems.  As each Highstorm renews the supply of Stormlight, demand falls as does the value of infused spheres relative to dun.  

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1 hour ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Stormlight supply and demand is what I meant.  As the demand for Stormlight rises, so does the value of the infused gems.  As each Highstorm renews the supply of Stormlight, demand falls as does the value of infused spheres relative to dun.

The problem with a commodities based currency is that you are using a finite consumable resource, this puts an artificial limit on economic growth. I expect with fabrial science Rosharan productivity will increase, which will add real wealth to the economy (the unit price/hr for labor would increase), but with a commodity based economy you would either need to find more of the commodity to increase monetary supply to offset this net gain of value in the system or run the risk of serious deflation. Having an abstract currency allows the economy to be regulated to match the monetary supply to the value created by the economy. 

*EDIT*
Logically monetizing the Roshar economy is the right thing to do, but I do agree with you @Wit Beyond Measure that having glowing stormlight infused gems as currency in a work of Epic fantasy is freaking visually amazing. The variations in color, the alternate uses for these base units of currency is far more interesting even if it is harder to scale to the needs of dynamic economy. I'm glad they use spheres because that also gives our KRs a handy source of readily available stormlight, and with the rust that's going down now, they're going to need it.

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
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The returned can be said to survive on storm light, what happens if they are exposed to void light?

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8 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

Another Shadesmar-related economic ponderable (spoiler-tagging the supporting argument for brevity):

  Reveal hidden contents

 

In the Shadesmar lighthouse, Riino the oracle is surprised when Kaladin is able to interact with his orb:

Quote

"How? Impossible. Unless... you're Invested. What Heightening are you?" He squinted at Kaladin. "No. Something else. Merciful Domi... A Surgebinder? It has begun again?"

This means either:

  1. Riino initially assumed Kaladin was Nalthian and had Breaths, or
  2. Riino initially assumed Kaladin had Breaths but was not Nalthian, which would imply:
    1. It's possible for non-Nalthians to acquire Breath (we may already know this, I'm not sure)
    2. Enough people are running around in Shadesmar with Breaths that somebody from Sel jumps to that as the most likely explanation for somebody's unexpected Investiture

 

Assuming it's possible for non-Nalthians to have Breath, it would make sense for lots of worldhoppers to eventually acquire some--Breaths are useful, and they don't run out.

How big would demand for Breath in Shadesmar have to be to produce a noticeable effect on the Nalthian Breath economy? Keeping in mind that they're already losing a non-trivial number of Breaths to feeding all those Returned, as well as people dying while non-Drab.

8 hours ago, Dlyol said:

I think much depends on two things, the rate of population growth in Nalthis because that determines how many new breaths are being created and the percentage of new breaths that are entering the market because these two together account for much (most?) of the supply side of the equation

 

55 minutes ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

The returned can be said to survive on storm light, what happens if they are exposed to void light?

Interesting to speculate about. I think it depends on how convetible the various forms of Investiture are. We know that Vasher needs a semi-constant infusion of Investiture to not consume his divine breath, which implies a possible route of conversion from Stormlight to Breath, but we don't have any evidence if stormlight is convertible to breath. For two different monetary systems to be compatible, they need to be convertible, otherwise one will just become a different class of asset.

That's what I envisioning happening, I think the greatest market potential for Nalthian breaths in the Rosharan CR is in producing durable goods. We know that value is associated with permenance, if goods had inherent investiture, they would be more permanent. Also, we know from Shadesmar scenes that Spren like to dress up, but they are usually dressed in a strange assemblage of garments from a bunch of different cultures (probably because it's hard to comb the sea of beads for matching shirts and trousers that have compatible permanence). This leads me to believe that the single greatest market potential in Shadesmar is for Nalthian awakened clothing (trousers, shirts, dresses, and even toupees). I actually asked Brandon at the Oathbringer release Portland signing about awakened toupees and got this WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Could an Awakened toupee be commanded to act like real hair?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Totally! Absolutely, yes!

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Would it be convincing? Yeah, I think that it would be. It depends.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

It depends on the number of breaths?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, it depends on factors, but I totally think that could be very convincing. Yes, yes, yes.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Could it also be given enough breath to command "Protect me?"

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, it could. That would be really weird. But yes.

I did a sketch of Nightwig that I gave to Brandon, it's an awakened toupee that was awakened with the Command "Live beautifully and fix ugly" and posted it to the Shard here:

So I think there is a serious market for awakened articles of clothing. Really, you could awaken a pair of jeans with the command "Custom Fit" and they would adapt to the wearer. Ingenious.

@.S.A.M.K.M as far as voidlight being convertible (i.e. could Vasher feed off this form of Investiture or not) I don't think we have enough information to say right now. But I would like to see him in his Hulked out Returned Form grab a Flying Fused and drain the Fused of their voidlight like a larkin would, seems like it would be possible, but I also think we don't have information right now. Voidlight is still very mysterious stuff.

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
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I wonder how much those money changers would charge to sell their perfect gemstones.

 

is there any way for an awakened to take on listerner forms or mimic them somehow that would be cool?

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On 12/30/2017 at 3:08 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I think manifesting is very similar to soulcasting, both require access to the cognitive aspect of the thing to be soulcast/manifested and storm light to power the transformation or dislocation. I would be very interested to see what happens to an object in the physical realm that has been manifested in the Cognitive, though I think it might not actually affect the physical realm manifestation of that object (but the destruction of the PR object might also destroy the manifestaion in the CR).

One of the early descriptions of spheres in the Physical Realm reminds me of the glass beaded souls of objects that we have in the Cognitive Realm in the Shadesmar seas of glass beads:

Quote

Before this trip, she’d never used money; she’d just admired the spheres for their beauty. Each one was composed of a glass bead a little larger than a person’s thumbnail with a much smaller gemstone set at the center.

....

The glass part of most spheres was the same size; the size of the gemstone at the center determined the denomination.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 69). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

And then later in Shadesmar:

Quote

She hit something. An endless dark sea, except it wasn’t wet. It was made of the small beads, an entire ocean of tiny glass spheres.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 643). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

I tend to think of Roshar currency as possibly being much larger gems stored physically in Shadesmar with only their glass bead soul representations showing up in Roshar.  Or maybe not.  But I don't think the resemblance of tiny glass beads and spheres is purely coincidental.  And, if we do have the souls of gems in Roshar, I'd love to see these manifested back into the physical realm at some point.

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If odium was so keen to get that king drop, why has he not tried to go after the ones the money changers have?

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11 minutes ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

If odium was so keen to get that king drop, why has he not tried to go after the ones the money changers have?

I think that was the only perfect gemstone that they had in the Thaylen gem vault. The other question is why did he grab the King's Drop and then have such a bad plan for securing it. He tipped his hand that it was a vitally important artifact by stealing it in the first place, but then did a 3 Stooges-esqu routine of getting it somewhere safe. That's poor execution.

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2 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I think that was the only perfect gemstone that they had in the Thaylen gem vault. The other question is why did he grab the King's Drop and then have such a bad plan for securing it. He tipped his hand that it was a vitally important artifact by stealing it in the first place, but then did a 3 Stooges-esqu routine of getting it somewhere safe. That's poor execution.

Or perhaps brilliant execution.  I have a theory that the old knife mentioned to be in the innermost vault with the King's Drop might be the actual target of the heist:

Quote

Vstim unlocked and swung open the smaller vault-within-the-vault, which was roughly the size of a closet. Light poured from it. The shelves inside were filled with gemstones, spheres, jewelry, and even some mundane objects like letters and an old knife.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1065). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Because perhaps this is the same knife that turns up later in Moash's hands:

Quote

“You have killed a king,” she said, removing something from a sheath within her robes. A strange knife, with a sapphire set into the pommel. The weapon was of a bright golden metal, so light it was almost white. “Would you do the same to a god?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1192). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 And then we have this conversation between Venli and Odium:

Quote

“What is that they carry?” Venli asked. “A gemstone? Is that why we came here? A rock?”

“No,” Odium said. “That is merely a precaution, a last-minute addition I made to prevent a potential disaster. The prize I claim today is far greater—even more grand than the city itself. The conduit of my freedom. The bane of Roshar."

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1099). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Some think the bane is Dalinar, but I think he's implying that this prize is something, not someone, and located in Thaylen City.  That's why they came to Thaylen City.  And I wouldn't call even the Blackthorn the bane of Roshar.  There were many men more evil than he, even at the height of his evilness.

The knife seemed to have sucked something out of Jezrien, his soul perhaps.  And a soul-sucking knife seems truly evil indeed.  Of course, it could be a spren or something else.  But the sapphire (the gem specifically for Jes) is occupied by something.

Quote

The man trembled for a moment more, then jerked once, going motionless. When Moash pulled the yellow-white knife free, it trailed dark smoke and left a blackened wound. The large sapphire at the pommel took on a subdued glow.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1205). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

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1 minute ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Or perhaps brilliant execution.  I have a theory that the old knife mentioned to be in the innermost vault with the King's Drop might be the actual target of the heist:

Quote

Vstim unlocked and swung open the smaller vault-within-the-vault, which was roughly the size of a closet. Light poured from it. The shelves inside were filled with gemstones, spheres, jewelry, and even some mundane objects like letters and an old knife.

Holy crap! That's an Awesome observation!

2 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

And then we have this conversation between Venli and Odium:

Quote

“What is that they carry?” Venli asked. “A gemstone? Is that why we came here? A rock?”

“No,” Odium said. “That is merely a precaution, a last-minute addition I made to prevent a potential disaster. The prize I claim today is far greater—even more grand than the city itself. The conduit of my freedom. The bane of Roshar."

Rad! I read this as Odium telling Venli that he was coming to claim his Champion, but why the mention of the old knife in the Rysn interlude? I LOVE this theory, what Odium says to Venli could be read as referring to both Dalinar (his intentionally failed feint) and his true Object the Herald Killing blade. As per usual awesome quotes too. I'll have to let this one percolate in the old brain box for awhile, but holy crap, that is an awesome catch! I upvoted another one of your posts because this is so cool!

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7 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

And I wouldn't call even the Blackthorn the bane of Roshar.

Not Blackthorn classic, maybe, but the guy from Dalinar's vision in black Shardplate with glowing red eyes and nine shadows (the Biggest, Blackest Thorn) might qualify.

I will be miffed if the "mundane... old knife" from the vault turns out to be the dagger with the sapphire in the pine made of gold so bright it was almost white. I get why you make the connection, and you might be right, but it feels too different to me.

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8 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Holy crap! That's an Awesome observation!

Rad! I read this as Odium telling Venli that he was coming to claim his Champion, but why the mention of the old knife in the Rysn interlude? I LOVE this theory, what Odium says to Venli could be read as referring to both Dalinar (his intentionally failed feint) and his true Object the Herald Killing blade. As per usual awesome quotes too. I'll have to let this one percolate in the old brain box for awhile, but holy crap, that is an awesome catch! I upvoted another one of your posts because this is so cool!

Ha!  Thank you, Hoid. 

I think the fact that Sanderson said "mundane objects" (and placed these objects under such intense security) sent bells off in my head to pay attention to these ostensibly mundane things, since they probably weren't nearly as mundane as promised.  And then comments about where the Jezrien knife came from (in the huge full reactions thread) and why they were suddenly able to kill Heralds made me go back to look at those "mundane" objects to see if there was a knife.  And there was.

7 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

I will be miffed if the "mundane... old knife" from the vault turns out to be the dagger with the sapphire in the pine made of gold so bright it was almost white. I get why you make the connection, and you might be right, but it feels too different to me.

I definitely could be wrong.  I suspect that the sapphire pommel was added by Team Odium specifically with Jezrien in mind, perhaps because only his Order's gem would work on him.  An ancient knife that possibly hadn't been used (or cleaned and polished much) for millennia might not look important enough to be in the inner vault with the King's Drop, especially without the pommel. Or they might not be the same knife.

Edited by Wit Beyond Measure
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10 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

I definitely could be wrong.  I suspect that the sapphire pommel was added by Team Odium specifically with Jezrien in mind, perhaps because only his Order's gem would work on him.  An ancient knife that possibly hadn't been used (or cleaned and polished much) for millennia might not look important enough to be in the inner vault with the King's Drop, especially without the pommel. Or they might not be the same knife.

Yeah, if we e.g. got an interlude from the artifabrian who was forced at Surgepoint to refurbish the thing and attach the sapphire, I would happily eat my earlier complaint.

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I have a question that I believe has a WoB answer but I can not find it. I'm hoping that someone has asked Brandon if the painting Kaladin is so fascinated with in Shadesmar is the very same painting in which Lightsong saw a woman with a black sword? The spren selling the painting said it was from the Court of Gods, was unusual that it was not destroyed, and that everyone sees something different in it. I do recall that Lightsong ordered that particular painting--the woman with the black sword--to not be destroyed.

Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

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4 hours ago, Brightlord Brooding Eyes said:

have a question that I believe has a WoB answer but I can not find it. I'm hoping that someone has asked Brandon if the painting Kaladin is so fascinated with in Shadesmar is the very same painting in which Lightsong saw a woman with a black sword? The spren selling the painting said it was from the Court of Gods, was unusual that it was not destroyed, and that everyone sees something different in it. I do recall that Lightsong ordered that particular painting--the woman with the black sword--to not be destroyed.

I could only find 2 WoBs about that painting, here is the first WoB:

Spoiler

Gordon

The paintings (I think there were at least two, right?) that remind Lightsong of his dreams and the Manywar etc. Is the Artist someone we know? If not, will we eventually meet him/her in a later book? Does the artist hope to affect Lightsong this way, or is it just some guy giving abstract art to his God?

Jared

Is the artist that painted those paintings Hoid?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid did not make the paintings. The goal of those paintings—and this is spoilery, by the way—the paintings are actually what the text implies that they are. They are abstract paintings which Lightsong, having a touch of the divine, is able to see and read into things that aren't necessarily there.

Beyond that, art is a magical thing in the world of WARBREAKER. When an artist creates a work of art, part of the artist's soul ends up in the artwork. Someone who has many breaths and who's Returned like Lightsong has the inherent ability to see into the art and perceive that. So Lightsong can interpret correctly an abstract piece, based on what the artist is trying to convey, in a way that a normal person couldn't.

I was not trying to make the artists anyone specifically important. In the case of those paintings, they are wonderful artists—I think they are two separate artists, if I'm thinking of the two paintings that you're indicating. As Lightsong has a splinter of divine nature inside him, he is able to interpret the paintings—to foresee, using them, and to see into the soul of the person who made them.

Painting WoB 2:

Spoiler

BlackYeti [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

In Oathbringer, Kaladin sees a painting from the Court of Gods which, it is claimed, shows something different to every person who sees it. However, as I understand it, the Returned only see things in the paintings because of their Divine Breath, there isn't anything intrinsically magical about the paintings themselves; what then is going on with this painting?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

He was very evasive here, ultimately he only said that not everything that you see is in the painting.

But here's the scene from Chapter 102, Celibrant, from OB where Kaladin sees the painting:

Quote

Kaladin had never had much time for art. Either the picture depicted something useful—like a map—or it was basically pointless. And yet, nestled among the paintings for display was a small one painted from thick strokes of oil. White and red, with lines of black. When he looked away, he found himself drawn back toward it, studying the way the highlights played off those dark lines.

Like nine shadows...he thought. With a figure kneeling in the middle...

And here is the scene from Warbreaker Chapter 26 where Lightsong first sees the painting and Llarimar's impression of the Painting (spoilered because it contains Warbreaker spoilers):

Spoiler
Quote

Lightsong stared at the painting.

Red upon red, shades so subtle that the painter must have been of the Third Heightening at least. Violent, terrible reds, clashing against one another like waves—waves that only vaguely resembled men, yet that somehow managed to convey the idea of armies fighting much better than any detailed realistic depiction could have.

Chaos. Bloody wounds upon bloody uniforms upon bloody skin. There was so much violence in red. His own color. He almost felt as if he were in the painting—felt its turmoil shaking him, disorienting him, pulling on him.

The waves of men pointed toward one figure at the center. A woman, vaguely depicted by a couple of curved brushstrokes. And yet it was obvious. She stood high, as if atop a cresting wave of crashing soldiers, caught in mid-motion, head flung back, her arm upraised.

Holding a deep black sword that darkened the red sky around it.

“The Battle of Twilight Falls,” Llarimar said quietly, standing beside him in the white hallway. “Last conflict of the Manywar.”

Lightsong nodded. He’d known that, somehow. The faces of many of the soldiers were tinged with grey. They were Lifeless. The Manywar had been the first time they had been used in large numbers on the battlefield.

And this is what Llarimar sees

Quote

“I . . . I don’t see a sword, Your Grace,” Llarimar said. “To tell you the truth, I don’t see a woman, either. It’s all just wild strokes of paint, to me.”

Pretty sure they are different paintings, but I think they are functioning similarly, they are somehow granting access to Fortune, a limited vague impression of a coming possible event of great significance.

 

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Posted (edited)

I think this might be one of the better theories on the Nexus(es?), @hoiditthroughthegrapevine! (one of the other ones I remember suggested that they might be the representations of Roshar's three moons)

Edited by Honorless
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On 1/4/2018 at 11:53 PM, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Or perhaps brilliant execution.  I have a theory that the old knife mentioned to be in the innermost vault with the King's Drop might be the actual target of the heist:

Feel free to post this in my hall of theories.  I would also be miffed if it is true but you do demonstrate excellent reasoning and it meets all of my criteria.

On 1/3/2018 at 7:28 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

but we don't have any evidence if stormlight is convertible to breath.

For the record it is but we have not seen how yet.

On 1/3/2018 at 0:12 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

The problem with a commodities based currency is that you are using a finite consumable resource, this puts an artificial limit on economic growth. I expect with fabrial science Rosharan productivity will increase, which will add real wealth to the economy (the unit price/hr for labor would increase), but with a commodity based economy you would either need to find more of the commodity to increase monetary supply to offset this net gain of value in the system or run the risk of serious deflation. Having an abstract currency allows the economy to be regulated to match the monetary supply to the value created by the economy. 

*EDIT*
Logically monetizing the Roshar economy is the right thing to do, but I do agree with you @Wit Beyond Measure that having glowing stormlight infused gems as currency in a work of Epic fantasy is freaking visually amazing. The variations in color, the alternate uses for these base units of currency is far more interesting even if it is harder to scale to the needs of dynamic economy. I'm glad they use spheres because that also gives our KRs a handy source of readily available stormlight, and with the rust that's going down now, they're going to need it.

But the gemstones are a renewable resource that can be grown at will.  This will be necessary to economic advancement anyway.

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On 1/3/2018 at 9:46 AM, Wit Beyond Measure said:

I am loving the Dalinar, but I'd be tempted to call it the Dal'ar. 

Obviously the Dalinar Dollar would end up getting contracted to the Dollinar, or "thorns" as the slang term, for obvious reasons (saying "ten thorns" would be like "ten bucks" in our world). And the Jezrien Cent => Centzrien => "zri" (for both singular and plural). (Those graphic images were awesome, btw!)

On 1/4/2018 at 11:53 PM, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Or perhaps brilliant execution.  I have a theory that the old knife mentioned to be in the innermost vault with the King's Drop might be the actual target of the heist:

Because perhaps this is the same knife that turns up later in Moash's hands:

That could be a complete coincidence... But as soon as I wrote that, I was like, nah, that's exactly the sort of oddly mundane background detail that ends up being significant in a work like Stormlight, isn't it? I hadn't read or thought of this theory before, so you definitely get an upvote for that one!

As for the relationship between spren, stormlight, and economics on Roshar/Shadesmar... What about fabrials? Can one carry a fabrial into and out of Shadesmar? I mean, the Oathgates are giant fabrials, right, but on the CR side you can see the spren. So whab about something like an ordinary portable fabrial, like one of Navani's painrials, or the one for Regrowth that Nalan used to revive Szeth? Or one of those "half-shard" shields?

Taravangian described the process of making a half-shard as "trapping" and "enslaving" a spren "that under other circumstances, might have blessed a Knight Radiant", implying the kind of spren they used to make them was a sentient one (versus a painspren or rotspren), and I would imagine the fabrial for the Surge of Regrowth might involve a spren that would grant that surge.

Might a fabrial brought into CR end up looking kind of like Adolin's deadeye Shardblade? But a fabrial's spren is not "dead" as in having been bonded and broken, simply trapped and forced or frozen into some kind of useful state.

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