[OB] Moash and Jezrien

[Tymonde]

Hey, new here on the forum and super hyped about having read Oathbringer.

I just have to throw something out here and i might be mistaken, but i wonder if Moash killing Jezrien is all it appears to be. Could the knive Moash used be a Hemalurgic Spike? And Odium is going to infuse to powers of Herals into his own minions? I've been on the lookout for Hemalurgy in the Stormlight Archive when Sanderson mentioned that it transcends more universes, but this appears to me to be the first real taking of power from someone powerfull.

Would make Moash a whole more interesting character in upcoming books if he would be some anti-herald or something, especially with his new honorblade, would give us more insights aswell in what it truly means to be a herald?

Anyways, enough rambling i suppose.

[ceskykure]

Didn't seem like hemalurgy to me because of the gem that was on the end of it. it seemed more like the gem, that was used to bind the "Thrill". As if Odium was trying to contain the Heralds and the benefits they could provide.

[Tymonde]

Yeah, but something doesn't seem right. It doesn't appear that most Heralds would oppose Odium, they are broken like Nale, Jezrien or Taln. Ash doesn't appear to be confronting Odium aswell. The ones that are left don't seem to organise people against Odium aswell. Looks like they gave up. Or is Odium just trying to break what is left of the Oathpact? Doesn't seem that's all there is to it, seems like a weak way to kill/ end the Heralds.

[Calyx]

I think Odium is trying to destroy the oathpact, which - despite being abandoned by most heralds - still clearly has some impact.

If the gem in the dagger is designed to bind a herald, why is it so clearly sensed as death? Jezrien seems to know that he is actually dying, and Ash knows when it happens.

[RShara]

There's a lot of great speculation in this thread too  

 

[The Sovereign]

1 hour ago, Tymonde said:

Hey, new here on the forum and super hyped about having read Oathbringer.

I just have to throw something out here and i might be mistaken, but i wonder if Moash killing Jezrien is all it appears to be. Could the knive Moash used be a Hemalurgic Spike? And Odium is going to infuse to powers of Herals into his own minions? I've been on the lookout for Hemalurgy in the Stormlight Archive when Sanderson mentioned that it transcends more universes, but this appears to me to be the first real taking of power from someone powerfull.

Would make Moash a whole more interesting character in upcoming books if he would be some anti-herald or something, especially with his new honorblade, would give us more insights aswell in what it truly means to be a herald?

Anyways, enough rambling i suppose.

There is a WoB about this:

 

Quote

 

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)
#8 Share

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kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

Have we seen any evidence of Hemalurgy on Roshar? And, as sort of an addendum, given the end of Oathbringer, was what happened to Jezrien Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are certain cosmere philosophers that would count it. I would divide it as two separate things that are using similar fundamentals. I wouldn't call it myself, but there are people who would disagree with me in-world. Have we seen evidence? I would say no evidence that is easy to pick out.

kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

But it's there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, there are people with Hemalurgy who have been to Roshar. I'm pretty sure they've been on-screen.

hemalurgy #jezrien #roshar #worldhoppers

Sources: 17th Shard - kalamitous emoashions's report

 

So, the mechanic of Moash's knife is something similar to Hemalurgy but not quite the same. I would guess that it did not actually give Moash any boon. The Heraldic reincarnation is a similar function to the Returned on Nalthis. The fundemental principles of the Cosmere recur in different magic systems (for example; Yolish lightweaving compared to Rosharan Lightweaving or healing via Bloodmaking or Regrowth). I suspect that what makes a Herald a Herald is that they have something very similar to a Divine Breath (though derived of Honor rather than Endowment) in their Spirit Web that reincarnates them and the dagger took that away from Jezrien and trapped it in the Gemstone in the hilt. I would guess that the process could be considered Hemalurgy as it likely ripped the ability straight out of Jezrien's Spirit Web.

@Calyx, I would guess the ability to sense the other Heralds is a product of the Oathpact. The Heralds are heavily connected to each other. It is what allows them to share their pain during torture on Braize. Ash can feel it because suddenly Jezrien was no longer connected.

Edited December 12, 2017 by The Sovereign

[digitalbusker]

Anti-hemalurgy: We're in Moash's PoV and he doesn't seem terribly concerned about where precisely the knife goes in, nor is there a sense his strike is being guided, and the spike points are important, at least in Scadrian hemalurgy.

Pro-hemalurgy: Something wound up getting stored in that gem, and since on Roshar gems are how you store investiture you'd expect Rosharan hemalurgy to involve gems.

I think at this point all we can say with any confidence is that Jezrien's sense that this death was different is related to the loss of whatever's in the gem now.

ETA: WoB ninjas are best ninjas.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Ookla the Busker
Ninja

[Tymonde]

37 minutes ago, RShara said:

There's a lot of great speculation in this thread too  

 

Oh that's some nice information right there. It seemed very suspicious to me. I wonder what Odium's endgame would be. Sounds pretty "boring" to write that Odium just needs to kill all 10 heralds (even if he somehow traps them in those blades?) and that would be all. There has to be some more that we could gleam from it, perhaps the wielder of the knive shares in the powers/ memories of the herals, to provide some more backstory aswell?

[ghajan monk]

If this is Rosharan hemalurgy then would the part of Jezrien that was captured deteriorate over time or is that only a side affect of Ruin's hemalurgy? We know that some magic systems are net positive (breath), net neutral (feruchemy), and net negative (hemalurgy). This could be how Odium plans to truly kill Jezrien. 

[ceskykure]

On 12/12/2017 at 9:34 AM, Tymonde said:

Yeah, but something doesn't seem right. It doesn't appear that most Heralds would oppose Odium, they are broken like Nale, Jezrien or Taln. Ash doesn't appear to be confronting Odium aswell. The ones that are left don't seem to organise people against Odium aswell. Looks like they gave up. Or is Odium just trying to break what is left of the Oathpact? Doesn't seem that's all there is to it, seems like a weak way to kill/ end the Heralds.

if they are healed and can regain their connection, they would definately side against Odium, I think Odium is trying to hedge his bets and take the heralds out of play.  Every other Desolation, the heralds were a major part of what stopped him.  He probably has a little bit of hate for them and imprisioning them in gems and doing .... who knows what with them, would probably  make him very happy

[Solarserpent]

I think the dagger drains investiture. Not specific to the Spirit Web like Hemalurgy. As to why Moash needed to do it. I am not sure. Perhaps the gemheart of the Parshendi would capture some of the investiture of Honor from Jezrien instead of it going into the saphire on the dagger. I have a few ideas as why they wanted to drain Jezrien though.

1st idea I have is that Odium is trying to capture Honor Investiture in order to make certain that Dalinar can not reunite Honor into a Shard again.

2nd Idea is that Odium is trying to destroy the oath pact. This could be that it will release Odium to do more or in my opinion it could release Ba-Ado-Mishram as it was stated that the binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram was somehow connected with the Oathpact: 

"So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.  " Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18

Its not definite but I believe Bondsmiths can change the Oath Pact itself. Melishi bound Ba-Ado-Mishram using this method. So break the oath pact and break the prison.

3. Perhaps Moash would be more powerful with Jezrien's investiture AND Jezrien's Honorblade. That would make him a really good champion.