[OB] Syladin

[Cenanin]

On 12/11/2017 at 3:56 PM, Rainier said:

Honestly I find this super gross, like if people were rooting for Dalinar to marry Gallant or something.

She's not human, she's not even a part of the same realm as Kaladin, and you want them to...what exactly? Get married? Start a family? Live happily ever after? Syl's life is already in his hands, and she's already going to outlive him unless he kills her first. You want to add a romantic angle to this already fraught relationship? No thanks. She's his spren, not his lover, and I hope we keep it that way.

But, if you want to see what some other people have to say, check out this other thread:

Some people over there brought up the Syladin possibility, and while I reacted the same way there as I am here, you might find something new.

Known personal opinions on matters like these make me think it would be highly, highly unlikely. It's /art territory imo.

[Furry-And-Lovable-Grover]

The thing I think a lot of people are overlooking, especially on the surface is that Kaladin isn't responsible for Syl's sapience. He's resposible for bringing her sapience to her manifestation in the physical realm. There are several places where spren talk about how traumatic is is to move from the Cognitive to the Physical realm. And the fact that many spren (Honorspren included) exist and live sapiently in the Cognitive realm completely negates the idea that a relationship between the two would be inappropriate based on the idea of any sort of codependency. Syl and Kaladin have made conscious decisions to work together. The Nahel bond can't form unless a spren agrees to accept a partner, and in that respect I think that it's entirely possible that there could be a romantic relationship between the two, even one that lacks eroticism. Chapter 7, where Syl wears a havah, and asks Kaladin what he thinks about it, certainly has Kaladin thinking a little wistfully/bemusedly.

 

I think the Syladin ship has got plenty of miles left in it.

 

edits for spelling

Edited December 15, 2017 by Jhardin

[Cenanin]

On 12/10/2017 at 10:27 PM, Storm It! said:

During the portion of the book when Kaladin and Co. go to 

  Reveal hidden contents

shadesmar

and based on the ending of the book when 

  Reveal hidden contents

Shallan and Adolin marry...which I couldn't be more happy for btw, 

I have to say that I am ready for a Syladin ship. I didn't know I needed this until then...but it happened. 

 

Does anyone else detect any hints that this might be a thing in the future or is this just strange wishful thinking on my part?

Knowing Brandon's personal opinions on social things like gay marriage I believe that this would be highly, highly, highly, unlikely. 

[Greywatch]

1 hour ago, Cenanin said:

Knowing Brandon's personal opinions on social things like gay marriage I believe that this would be highly, highly, highly, unlikely. 

Do you mean the part where Kaladin and Syl would be a heterosexual couple or the part where he's written canon gay characters like Drehy and Ranette into his books?

[aemetha]

4 hours ago, Cenanin said:

Knowing Brandon's personal opinions on social things like gay marriage I believe that this would be highly, highly, highly, unlikely.

His own thoughts on his website tend to indicate otherwise.

http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/252

Quote

My goal in storytelling is first and foremost to be true to the characters--their passions, beliefs, and goals. No matter what those are. I'm not trying to make a point consciously ever in my writing--though I do think that good stories should raise questions and make readers think.

Who I am as a person heavily influences what I write, and I draw from everything I can find--whether it be LDS, Buddhist, Islamic, or Atheist. It's all jumbled up there in that head of mine, and comes out in different characters who are seeking different things.

In other words, I'm not setting out to be like C.S. Lewis and write parables of belief. I'm trying more what Tolkien did (not, of course, meaning to compare myself favorably with the master) in that I tell story and setting first, and let theme and meaning take care of itself.

http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/253

Quote

The biggest complaint I've had from readers is not about the sacrifice scene in Mistborn. It's not the noble society in Mistborn, nor is it the dark edge Kelsier has. It's the fact that my characters occasionally curse. This has really bothered some readers, which I'll admit, kind of dumbfounds me. I use only the most tame of curses (the Biblical swear words, you might call them). The other things readers have mentioned above are far more worrisome to me. It bothers me that people email me with outcries when a character says "damnation," yet don't bat an eye at the fact that that same character just murdered someone in cold blood.

I don't want to give the impression here that my books are incredibly dark. They are, however, sometimes a little violent. I've thought a lot about this issue. What do I want to do, how much do I want to show? Can I have a brutal oppressive empire without acknowledging the kinds of things that empire would do?

My books are about hope, in my opinion. Hope, struggle, and victory. I've tried very hard to keep graphic descriptions out of my books where I can, but I can't always do so without undermining the story.  

A wise friend (an LDS writer) once explained that in his opinion, glorifying violence or sexuality comes when consequences are removed. The scriptures themselves don't shy away from graphic content or descriptions (scalps on swords, anyone?) The important issue, however, is that the scriptures show the destructive effect that these things can have, even on the good people who are forced to engage in them.

So, I consider that my charge. I don't sugar-coat my stories; I show cause and effect. A person cannot kill, in my opinion, even for good reasons without it leaving them scarred.

He seems to be saying he's okay with depicting things he personally doesn't feel right about, as long as he shows the consequences of those depictions so as not to glorify it.

[MistLord]

Whilst I'm happily a self-proclaimed shipper of all things adorable, and have even shipped Kaladin and Syl in the past, I don't think that it will happen. Not because it can't mind you. Simply because neither of them seem to have any interest in each other beyond beings friends. (Even as friends, I feel like Kaladin could warm up to Syl a bit more. She tries so hard and does so much for you, man! Let up a little!)

I can definitely imagine a Romeo and Juliet style romance of spren and humans. But I really like Kaladin and Syl as friends, and at least at this point in the story, there's no reason for them to even consider the inter-species complications -- which will always be relevant, because love each other or not, people will be practical about their choices, and will make sacrifices. 

In other words, I just broship Syladin too hard to want them to become romantic.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, MistLord said:

Even as friends, I feel like Kaladin could warm up to Syl a bit more.

He... does?

He literally goes berserk, when she is locked up by the other honorspren. Not because, he needs her, but because "Being imprisoned is terrible for me, it must be even worse for her."

If this is not caring, then I don't know what is.

 

Edited December 16, 2017 by SLNC

[MistLord]

20 minutes ago, SLNC said:

He... does?

He literally goes berserk, when she is locked up by the other honorspren. Not because, he needs her, but because "Being imprisoned is terrible for me, it must be even worse for her."

Whilst I see your point, you have to admit the extreme circumstances lend themselves to being a bit unique. I was more referring to the everyday instances of Syl wanting to talk on something, questioning or remarking, and Kaladin giving a short answer, or even no answer at all. He just seems really curt. I realise I'm being pedantic, but Kaladin's shown that he can make good conversation around Shallan. 

Spoiler

"How often are you going to make me apologize for that?"

"How many times have I done it so far?"

"At least fifty."

"Liar," Syl said. "Can't be more than twenty."

"I'm sorry."

Wait. Was that a light up ahead?

- Oathbringer, Chapter 5: Hearthstone 

There are a number of factors to consider, of course. People have pointed out his Seasonal Depression Disorder. The quote I just gave was when he was dealing with the fact his entire town (supposedly) died. But then again, this girl / Honorspren, died for him, and it'd be nice for him to have been affected by that in some way.

Also, him going beserk just has less of a shock factor for me, considering how physical of a character he is. It feels almost expected, and it'd definitely be surprising if he didn't and just left her. Though the impression is also artificially lessened by the fact we're only told about his outburts, not shown them.

EDIT: added citation for quote

Edited December 16, 2017 by MistLord

[TheWarriorPoet]

On 12/11/2017 at 11:57 AM, Storm It! said:

I have to say that I am ready for a Syladin ship. I didn't know I needed this until then...but it happened. 

 

Does anyone else detect any hints that this might be a thing in the future or is this just strange wishful thinking on my part?

Just why someone would want to get in a romantic relationship with his sword (or spear) i mean what if there is an argument and she is not talking to him, will she still have to come when he summons her?? I guess yes, but then it will ruin the romantic theory completely, won't it?

[Furry-And-Lovable-Grover]

On 12/16/2017 at 3:22 AM, MistLord said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

"How often are you going to make me apologize for that?"

"How many times have I done it so far?"

"At least fifty."

"Liar," Syl said. "Can't be more than twenty."

"I'm sorry."

Wait. Was that a light up ahead?

- Oathbringer, Chapter 5: Hearthstone 

There are a number of factors to consider, of course. People have pointed out his Seasonal Depression Disorder. The quote I just gave was when he was dealing with the fact his entire town (supposedly) died. But then again, this girl / Honorspren, died for him, and it'd be nice for him to have been affected by that in some way.

Also, him going beserk just has less of a shock factor for me, considering how physical of a character he is. It feels almost expected, and it'd definitely be surprising if he didn't and just left her. Though the impression is also artificially lessened by the fact we're only told about his outburts, not shown them.

 

So one of the things that you're pointing out here, whether or not Kaladin was sorry for hurting/killing Syl was actually addressed in WoR. Brandon went out of his way to point out how haunted he was by Syl's scream, and the loss of Syl actually drove him into major depression, coupled with the weeping and his injury. He spent time grieving and blaming himself for contradicting his oaths. I don't think that we can really feasibly say that Kaladin doesn't care about Syl.

 

Additionally, many people are getting caught up on the physical aspect of a romantic relationship. As a married person with three kids, I can certainly say that I think that is an important aspect of a romantic relationship. But that doesn't mean that it has to be dependent on that. There are many couples where one partner is physically incapable of performing, and there's a thriving and happy marriage. My wife and I actually met and spoke for months over the internet and decided that we were exclusive, long before we ever met face to face. As many obstacles as there are to the Syladin ship, none of them so far is a deal breaker.

[JamesMc6]

I have to say, there is a huge aspect to "Syladin" that is right in front of our face, but I think most people are missing it, or not talking about it. Syl, apart from Kaladin, has a huge story arc: the development of her increasing humanity. Folks, Syl has been with us right from the beginning, through all three books, and we are just starting to get bits and pieces of her backstory. She's the Ancient Daughter, she escaped/fled from home, she's a fugitive, she's a Spren's version of a Lighteye, she's been bonded to a Windrunner before, she looks hot in a red dress and dark hair. We know more about Syl then any of the other bonded spren we've met; including Pattern, Ivory, or Wyndle. She is the Star Spren of the show, and is much more important to the series than just "Kaladin's spren."

Because she is only slowly regaining her memories from before Kaladin, she hasn't been a POV character yet; but I think she will be starting in book 4. Maybe that's why so many are not catching on to where I think Brandon is taking this. So let's turn this around for a moment. Up till now, Syladin has been all about Kaladin's character development; helping Kaladin overcome loneliness and depression, the oaths, the almost oath-breaking, the "you should totally ask Becky to the Prom, I won't mind at all even though inside I desperately want you to ask me;" and the so many other Kaladin character development plot points that I'm not remembering. However, I think starting in book 4 (hopefully) Syladin is going to be all about Slyphrena's character development. Sure, of what we know right now about sprens and Nahel Bonds, Kaladin and Syl together is a little creepy, but I think this "ship" is going to look a lot different after the next couple books when we know even more about sprens and Nahel Bonds.

Where do I think this is going? Well whenever I try to predict what may happen in the Cosmere, I try to remember that BranSan is always looking to turn stereotypical fantasy troupes on their head. Looking through that prism, I can absolutely see Syl becoming some sort of proto-spren where a more traditional relation'ship' between her and Kaladin is possible, and not so creepy. Remember, Syl is the Star Spren of the series.

Heck, I'm just going to go on record now as saying that by the end of SA, Syl will be able to manifest entirely and completely in the Physical Realm. And of then of course, Kaladin and Syl will get married and live happily ever after. But I'm a helpless romantic so I have to say that. (But so is Brandon, I think.)

[Furry-And-Lovable-Grover]

2 minutes ago, Brightlord Brooding Eyes said:

I have to say, there is a huge aspect to "Syladin" that is right in front of our face, but I think most people are missing it, or not talking about it. Syl, apart from Kaladin, has a huge story arc: the development of her increasing humanity. Folks, Syl has been with us right from the beginning, through all three books, and we are just starting to get bits and pieces of her backstory. She's the Ancient Daughter, she escaped/fled from home, she's a fugitive, she's a Spren's version of a Lighteye, she's been bonded to a Windrunner before, she looks hot in a red dress and dark hair. We know more about Syl then any of the other bonded spren we've met; including Pattern, Ivory, or Wyndle. She is the Star Spren of the show, and is much more important to the series than just "Kaladin's spren."

Because she is only slowly regaining her memories from before Kaladin, she hasn't been a POV character yet; but I think she will be starting in book 4. Maybe that's why so many are not catching on to where I think Brandon is taking this. So let's turn this around for a moment. Up till now, Syladin has been all about Kaladin's character development; helping Kaladin overcome loneliness and depression, the oaths, the almost oath-breaking, the "you should totally ask Becky to the Prom, I won't mind at all even though inside I desperately want you to ask me;" and the so many other Kaladin character development plot points that I'm not remembering. However, I think starting in book 4 (hopefully) Syladin is going to be all about Slyphrena's character development. Sure, of what we know right now about sprens and Nahel Bonds, Kaladin and Syl together is a little creepy, but I think this "ship" is going to look a lot different after the next couple books when we know even more about sprens and Nahel Bonds.

Where do I think this is going? Well whenever I try to predict what may happen in the Cosmere, I try to remember that BranSan is always looking to turn stereotypical fantasy troupes on their head. Looking through that prism, I can absolutely see Syl becoming some sort of proto-spren where a more traditional relation'ship' between her and Kaladin is possible, and not so creepy. Remember, Syl is the Star Spren of the series.

Heck, I'm just going to go on record now as saying that by the end of SA, Syl will be able to manifest entirely and completely in the Physical Realm. And of then of course, Kaladin and Syl will get married and live happily ever after. But I'm a helpless romantic so I have to say that. (But so is Brandon, I think.)

THIS. 

It takes two to tango.

Give this man upvotes

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Brightlord Brooding Eyes said:

Where do I think this is going? Well whenever I try to predict what may happen in the Cosmere, I try to remember that BranSan is always looking to turn stereotypical fantasy troupes on their head. Looking through that prism, I can absolutely see Syl becoming some sort of proto-spren where a more traditional relation'ship' between her and Kaladin is possible, and not so creepy. Remember, Syl is the Star Spren of the series.

While I very much agree with your analysis about Syl's standing in the series as the Star Spren, I also think, that Brandon very much adheres to rules. Spren are creatures of the Cognitive Realm and while Syl is a bit special in her standing and independence, she is still very much an honorspren. She had to go through the same trials and tribulations, that other higher spren must go through, when they want to manifest in the Physical Realm. I see no evidence, that this will change, but I won't completely write it off.

I am not completely opposed to a possible Syl/Kaladin relationship, but I don't see a possibility at the moment.

[Dreamstorm]

@Brightlord Brooding Eyes I don't know if I'm behind Syladin, but I would loveeeeee a novella of our daring Princess Syl escaping her tower and overlords to find freedom in the physical realm. I love a princess escaping society's bonds story. I can't help it. I kinda ship her with Pattern though, if only because of her adorable "he's weird because he's nice" moment. And Cryptic's ARE famous. Famous scholar and a princess?!? Who doesn't want that??

[MonsterMetroid]

On 12/11/2017 at 4:56 PM, Rainier said:

Honestly I find this super gross, like if people were rooting for Dalinar to marry Gallant or something.

On 12/11/2017 at 5:44 PM, Greywatch said:

There's nothing wrong with discussing a ship, and any comparison to bestiality or incest when Kaladin and Syl are both thinking beings not related to each other is a bit uncalled for.

Sorry but I just have to point out Gallant is a thinking being too 

 

 

[The Sovereign]

Kalphrena rolls off the tongue quite a bit be better than Syladin.

[Furry-And-Lovable-Grover]

20 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Brightlord Brooding Eyes I don't know if I'm behind Syladin, but I would loveeeeee a novella of our daring Princess Syl escaping her tower and overlords to find freedom in the physical realm. I love a princess escaping society's bonds story. I can't help it. I kinda ship her with Pattern though, if only because of her adorable "he's weird because he's nice" moment. And Cryptic's ARE famous. Famous scholar and a princess?!? Who doesn't want that??

I'd ship it.

[Shadowmancer]

On 12/13/2017 at 6:17 PM, Stece said:

Too late, honestly I think this is where Brandon's going: "Siah Aimians, who are characterized by deep blue nails and eyes, have been known to sculpt their bodies to temporarily suppress their senses (e.g. to avoid smelling foul odors), produce tattoo-like markings on their skin, or heal from injuries. They also *****cast shadows in the wrong direction*****" all of these abilities and the discription apply to honor spren.

And we have the story about the moons in OB, where a human has a child with a moon as the origin for Aimians, which sounds a lot to me like interspecies relationship, perhaps between a Bondsmith and one of their spren.

[Dreamstorm]

40 minutes ago, Jhardin said:

I'd ship it.

Flirting?!? #sylpattern (I now have so many ships I don't know what to do with myself!)

Quote

"So," Syl said, sitting on a rock nearby and swinging her legs. "I've always wondered. Does the world look weird to you, or normal?"

"Weird," Pattern said. "Mmm. Same as for everyone."

"I guess neither of us technically have eyes," Syl said, leaning back and looking up at the glassy canopy of their tree-mushroom shelter. "We're each a bit of power made manifest. We honorspren mimic Honor himself. You Cryptics mimic... weird stuff?"

"The fundamental underlying mathematics by which natural phenomena occur. Mmm. Truths that explain the fabric of existence."

"Yeah. Weird stuff."

(OB, Ch. 97, Riino)

 

[Vissy]

She basically just said that she thinks Pattern is weird and that she doesn't understand him. 

[Dreamstorm]

2 minutes ago, Vissy said:

She basically just said that she thinks Pattern is weird and that she doesn't understand him. 

Intrigue. Mystery. A non-head of twisting lines. What else would a spren want?!?

[MistLord]

6 hours ago, Jhardin said:

So one of the things that you're pointing out here, whether or not Kaladin was sorry for hurting/killing Syl was actually addressed in WoR. Brandon went out of his way to point out how haunted he was by Syl's scream, and the loss of Syl actually drove him into major depression, coupled with the weeping and his injury. He spent time grieving and blaming himself for contradicting his oaths. I don't think that we can really feasibly say that Kaladin doesn't care about Syl.

Just to clarify before I drop it, I definitely understand Kaladin cares about Syl. I just wish he would care more, reflecting how Syl has grown to care for Kaladin more. 

51 minutes ago, Vissy said:

She basically just said that she thinks Pattern is weird and that she doesn't understand him. 

Yeah, I think it's definitely just some small talk about spren and whom they represent (maybe even a bit of Cryptic / Honorspren rivalry). I would like to see them become friends, or at least friendly, but I doubt Syl/Pattern will ever be a thing, even in fandom. 

I like the ring of Kalphrena.

[Furry-And-Lovable-Grover]

17 minutes ago, MistLord said:

Yeah, I think it's definitely just some small talk about spren and whom they represent (maybe even a bit of Cryptic / Honorspren rivalry). I would like to see them become friends, or at least friendly, but I doubt Syl/Pattern will ever be a thing, even in fandom. 

I like the ring of Kalphrena.

Don't underestimate shippers. They're into Wierd Stuff.

[Dreamstorm]

Reviving this thread because I ran across a WoB which I don't think has been mentioned. RAFO is certainly not shutting down the possibility...

Quote

Questioner

Have romantic relationships ever occurred between surgebinders and their spren?  And if so what were the results?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a RAFO.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80-shadows-of-self-london-uk-signing/#e5314

 

[The Invested Beard]