[OB] Syladin

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, bdoble97 said:

Does it Kalidin say to himself she's so ignorant doesn't she  realize that he only needs her.

I... can't seem to find that section.

[Awesomness]

This thread turned out to be really interesting

4 hours ago, Valand said:

 

About Syl's appearance - I thought there were some descriptions of her so I searched in books. I found some quotes.

 

Great work, I also pictured Syl as pretty hot, but didn't remember where I get the impression.

In fact, when reading the Shadesmar chapters I kept expecting someone to point out how ironic was that grumpy Kalladin is always being followed around by a pretty and cheerful girl in a revealing dress...

[bdoble97]

38 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I... can't seem to find that section.

If you have the book in front of you and you can't find it then I'm wrong I don't have the book readily available to me at the moment

[aemetha]

@Rainier I''m going to preface this by saying I am all for a Kaladin Syl ship, but I'm not at all hung up on a sexual relationship being any part of that.

Can I ask, what exactly you find gross about it, be it human/spren or human/ryshadium? From a purely dispassionate moral standpoint, the prohibition of bestiality is based on the fact an animal cannot consent or indicate distress in the same way a human being can. In such cases a human would be inflicting harm upon the animal for personal gratification. From an evolutionary standpoint, it is considered maladaptive because it doesn't continue the genetic line, and so may be considered unnatural.

Those arguments tend to be a bit thin in these circumstances though. The moral argument is weak because consent can be given and distress can be indicate. No party is inflicting harm upon the other. From the evolutionary standpoint, it's not inconsistent with modern sexual relationships in which contraception is actively employed to prevent the unwanted continuation of the genetic line. Even the suggestion of superficial equivalency doesn't apply to Syl as it would for ryshadium.

So I genuinely am interested, what is, in your opinion, the rational basis for the revulsion response? 

[Rainier]

3 minutes ago, aemetha said:

So I genuinely am interested, what is, in your opinion, the rational basis for the revulsion response? 

I think it has to do with the nature of the Nahel bond. This isn't just two random people who meet and like each other, Kaladin literally gives Syl sentience through the bond. Without him, she's mindless windspren, but together, and with the oaths, they're something amazing and powerful. 

So Syl is risking her life for intelligence and this bond. Crossing that relationship with the baser physical and even emotional characteristics of a relationship just seems unholy or blasphemous. It's not just that I don't think it will happen in the books, it's that it demeans the Nahel bond they have.

[bdoble97]

Lol the more I think about this the more I want this relationship to happen more than any other book series I've read. I want them to end up together. Some people are stating the physical aspect and how that would stop a relationship that brought to mine the FX TV series based off of the Marvel comic book character Legion he's in love with his girlfriend but they cannot have a physical relationship due to her mutant powers so they have a mental relationship when he uses his mutant powers if that make sense . Some other people are saying that this is a gross idea because it's like him loving his sister I don't even understand that argument. Another argument is that when they first meet her mental capacity is of a young child yes if her mental capacity was only that and she never evolved that would be gross in wrong but she is well past that it and her mental capacity will  be even further along in the future books. As of Oathbringer she's already a intellectual equal to Kaladin. Another person mentioned sci-fi is filled with inter-species relationships. I would think it would be amazing if somehow they had a Offspring and it would be a new Evolution of a half human half Spren.  Who knows what's going to happen and we probably have to wait for years hopefully only three years till the next book so let's just keep on speculating and I love this idea

[aemetha]

6 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Crossing that relationship with the baser physical and even emotional characteristics of a relationship just seems unholy or blasphemous.

So, basically you think it cheapens the existing relationship, and that Syl is in some respects Kaladin's child?

I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. I don't necessarily agree with it myself though. I'm more of the opinion that they already have a relationship along the lines being discussed here, just not a physical relationship. I don't tend to like categorising things though, I see things on a continuum or a plane of possible responses with no two people or relationships falling into the same point in that. I think their reliance and genuine care for each other is enough that they don't need romantic attachments to others to meet their needs for primary emotional support and affection.

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, bdoble97 said:

Yes yes yes and yes. I have wanted this to happen since Words of Radiance and have posted my thoughts on this at least two or three times in the past. Correct me if I'm wrong but at the end of OB when Syl is kind of consoling  Kaladin about Shallan and Adolin. Does it Kalidin say to himself she's so ignorant doesn't she  realize that he only needs her. To me that's a definite big foreshadowing that he only needs her and wants only her even if he doesn't truly understand his feelings yet. Love is a big weird messy thing. 

This is the scene I think you're referring to:

Quote

He squinted down at Shallan and Adolin, and found that he couldn't be bitter.  He didn't feel resignation either.  Instead he felt... agreement.

"Oh, them," Syl said.  "Well, I know that you don't back down from fights.  You've lost the round, but-"

"No," he said.  "Her choice is made.  You can see it."

"I can?"

"You should be able to."  He rubbed his finder on the rock.  "I don't think I loved her, Syl.  I felt... something [....]" [Stuff about the rock which represents Tien]

I can't really see much here besides Syl continuing to push Kaladin towards Shallan?

Spoiler

And Syl thinking that Shallan didn't actually make a definitive choice. 

Admittedly, I'm not into inter-species, so I'm not stretching here to try and find something romantic in the scene.  I'm not even into human/listener even though we've been told there was interbreeding.  I see the elves in LOTR as more of a different race of human (human with pointy ears), but I'm not well-acquainted with elf anatomy so could be missing something!  And I'm not trying to be controversial (or dismiss anyone else's feelings on the matter), but I'd personally find it hard for me to really get into a ship which doesn't include physical intimacy.

[Rainier]

1 minute ago, aemetha said:

So, basically you think it cheapens the existing relationship, and that Syl is in some respects Kaladin's child?

Almost. It's that they aren't independent of one another, and never could have been. Theoretically two people are independent actors and can make their own choices, while in reality people are forced into their circumstances. However Syl and Kaladin are in no way independent of one another, never could have been and never will be. I wouldn't call it parent/child either, as that isn't right. It's closer to parasite/host than parent/child. Syl can't live without Kaladin, so she's a parasite. Kaladin can get rid of her (through breaking oaths), but while he's the host they can explore their symbiosis.

So it's less like man/horse and more like man/tapeworm, if the tapeworm was a fragment of god who gives a fragment of godlike powers

6 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

And I'm not trying to be controversial (or dismiss anyone else's feelings on the matter), but I'd personally find it hard for me to really get into a ship which doesn't include physical intimacy.

This is quick summation of my feelings, too. To me, when framing the discussion as a relationship, or referring to a couple as a portmanteau of their names, there's an implication of physical love.

And just like that we're into realmatic theory. In those terms, I'm looking for love across all three realms. I'd say Syl and Kaladin have love in only one of these three realms: spiritual. This is the most ephemeral and open to interpretation, but it illustrates what I think this partnership is lacking, and that's fulfillment across all three realms.

[Dreamstorm]

7 minutes ago, Rainier said:

So it's less like man/horse and more like man/tapeworm, if the tapeworm was a fragment of god who gives a fragment of godlike powers

Omg, you are going all in 

7 minutes ago, Rainier said:

And just like that we're into realmatic theory. In those terms, I'm looking for love across all three realms. I'd say Syl and Kaladin have love in only one of these three realms: spiritual.

Why not cognitive realm too?

[Vissy]

@Rainier Since you use the words "unholy" and "blasphemous", do you find Syladin repulsive in a religious manner - as it would be essentially like having a romantic relationship with an angel, perhaps, to use a Christian analogy - or do you mean it in some other way?

Edited December 12, 2017 by Vissy

[Rainier]

20 minutes ago, Vissy said:

@Rainier Since you use the words "unholy" and "blasphemous", do you find Syladin repulsive in a religious manner - as it would be essentially like having a romantic relationship with an angel, perhaps, to use a Christian analogy - or do you mean it in some other way?

Yes, mostly. There are various magics in the Cosmere, and they are all, to one extent or another, 'holy.' It's the best word I can find that expresses the taboo I'm feeling, like to treat a spren the way you treat a woman is to miss the distinctions between the regular mortals (with whom you pursue romantic interests) and the divine figures.

You mention a relationship between a human and an angel, and I'm thinking I wouldn't really have these kinds of reservations. Angels (generic, of course) are mostly humanoid, whereas spren are ideas. They are living thoughts, given shape and purpose by the thoughts of mortal men. I suppose I wouldn't much care because I don't much care for Christian ideology, so maybe the difference is that I've bought into the Knights Radiant/Heralds/Desolations religion, and in taking it seriously I reserve some gravitas for the spren that is missing among others.

But imagine for a moment that Kaladin falls in love with Syl and comes to Rock for advice, as he is the only one who could see her and has always seemed to know more than he lets on. What do you think Rock would say? He's a character that treats them as gods, as I am. Maybe I'm just a horneating prude.

[Starla]

Even though I’m not a Syladin shipper, I don’t have any moral or ethical problem with it. I’ve read and watched enough fantasy and scifi over the years that I don’t have any issues with inter-species relationships of various sorts in a fantasy book, be it species from the same planet or different planets, realms, dimensions, universes, planes of existence, etc. My only question is whether all parties have free will to make their own choices. If they do, I don’t much care where they come from or what their anatomy looks like.

I also don’t have a problem with beings who are connected at a soul level loving each other, in fact, I would expect them to share a deep love and understanding of one another that is unavailable to totally “separate” individuals. There are various ways to love another being, it may or may not be romantic and/or sexual. This doesn’t mean the relationship can’t be as deeply loving and intimate as a same-species love relationship. The boundaries and definitions of loving another are flexible. Genders, species, level of physicality, numbers of parties involved, depth of connection, everybody can love.

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

And just like that we're into realmatic theory. In those terms, I'm looking for love across all three realms. I'd say Syl and Kaladin have love in only one of these three realms: spiritual. This is the most ephemeral and open to interpretation, but it illustrates what I think this partnership is lacking, and that's fulfillment across all three realms.

 

I’d say a human and spren with a nahel bond can love each other across all three realms. There is more to the physical realm than just sex. There is talking to each other, enjoying the company of the other person, feeling empathy when the other is sad or happy or afraid, general friendship and companionship. Just because they are in a bond that would be terribly painful to break, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t love each other in whatever way they want to while they are together. They were both individual entities before the bond and both chose to initiate it, so no one is being forced or coerced to do anything. 

 

All that said, I’d personally rather Kaladin be in a romantic relationship with a person he can actually touch, but that’s just my personal preference for what I'd like to read in this particular story.  However, if all he needs is emotional support and companionship, then maybe Syl is enough to satisfy that.

[Vissy]

@Rainier I see. Personally, I don't see these forces as divine - if there is true divinity in the Cosmere (there probably is), it is in the Beyond, with the original Vessel of Adonalsium. I see the Shards as very much influenced by humanity. I don't see natural forces as inherently divine, is what I'm trying to say, and as such in my mind Syl is no more divine than, say, a King's fork is a royal by way of association.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Vissy

[Rainier]

8 minutes ago, Starla said:

All that said, I’d personally rather Kaladin be in a romantic relationship with a person he can actually touch, but that’s just my personal preference for what I'd like to read in this particular story.  However, if all he needs is emotional support and companionship, then maybe Syl is enough to satisfy that.

I agree, I want Kaladin to have a real romantic relationship with a real woman. I'm OK with him going with Syl for emotional support and companionship, which he's already been doing. What I'm not OK is for that to be all there is, or for their relationship to grow to somehow and prevent him from forming real bonds with real people, or will prevent him from caring for someone who can die.

[aemetha]

3 minutes ago, Rainier said:

What I'm not OK is for that to be all there is, or for their relationship to grow to somehow and prevent him from forming real bonds with real people, or will prevent him from caring for someone who can die.

I can agree with that part. I don't know that it's an issue specific to a spren-human relationship though. I don't think it is ever healthy for a particular relationship to prevent the establishment of other relationships. I think too many people do this in real life. I have a friend who only has friends when he isn't in a close relationship, it's really silly, and it turns a lot of people off him. Again, focused on the non-sexual aspects of companionship and emotional support. I'm okay with a primary relationship with a spren that doesn't limit the potential to establish other relationships.

[taliefer]

i'd be up for some kind of kal syl thing, as i think they already have the closest relationship of any two characters in the books.

 

i was disapointed in the lack of interactions in general between the two of them in shadesmar, that kinda fell flat. i also think it dampens any "ship" of them, as Sanderson obviously didnt use the situation there to advance their relationship more than it already was.

[aemetha]

1 minute ago, taliefer said:

i was disapointed in the lack of interactions in general between the two of them in shadesmar, that kinda fell flat. i also think it dampens any "ship" of them, as Sanderson obviously didnt use the situation there to advance their relationship more than it already was.

I think a confounding factor there is that the absence of sunlight in shadesmar triggers Kaladin's seasonal affective disorder. It's extremely difficult for someone experiencing that severe a depression to meaningfully engage in any kind of intimate interactions.

[soyperson]

I just can't bring myself to ship this. The bond between spren and Radiant seems far removed from romantic. It's comparable to shipping Lift and Wyndle. I don't see Syladin happening, sorry. 

[The Invested Beard]

Well on a purely technical level, a physical relationship would be possible, at least in Shadesmar. There are even times in the PR when Syl becomes cohesive enough to touch or carry things, so...yeah why not? This is fantasy, crazy things can happen.

[bdoble97]

14 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

Well on a purely technical level, a physical relationship would be possible, at least in Shadesmar. There are even times in the PR when Syl becomes cohesive enough to touch or carry things, so...yeah why not? This is fantasy, crazy things can happen.

Good point about her touching thingsand carrying stuff

[Stece]

On 12/12/2017 at 0:49 PM, bdoble97 said:

Lol the more I think about this the more I want this relationship to happen more than any other book series I've read. I want them to end up together. Some people are stating the physical aspect and how that would stop a relationship that brought to mine the FX TV series based off of the Marvel comic book character Legion he's in love with his girlfriend but they cannot have a physical relationship due to her mutant powers so they have a mental relationship when he uses his mutant powers if that make sense . Some other people are saying that this is a gross idea because it's like him loving his sister I don't even understand that argument. Another argument is that when they first meet her mental capacity is of a young child yes if her mental capacity was only that and she never evolved that would be gross in wrong but she is well past that it and her mental capacity will  be even further along in the future books. As of Oathbringer she's already a intellectual equal to Kaladin. Another person mentioned sci-fi is filled with inter-species relationships. I would think it would be amazing if somehow they had a Offspring and it would be a new Evolution of a half human half Spren.  Who knows what's going to happen and we probably have to wait for years hopefully only three years till the next book so let's just keep on speculating and I love this idea

Too late, honestly I think this is where Brandon's going: "Siah Aimians, who are characterized by deep blue nails and eyes, have been known to sculpt their bodies to temporarily suppress their senses (e.g. to avoid smelling foul odors), produce tattoo-like markings on their skin, or heal from injuries. They also *****cast shadows in the wrong direction*****" all of these abilities and the discription apply to honor spren.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Stece
More info

[bdoble97]

21 minutes ago, Stece said:

Too late, honestly I think this is where Brandon's going: "Siah Aimians, who are characterized by deep blue nails and eyes, have been known to sculpt their bodies to temporarily suppress their senses (e.g. to avoid smelling foul odors), produce tattoo-like markings on their skin, or heal from injuries. They also *****cast shadows in the wrong direction*****" all of these abilities and the discription apply to honor spren.

So you think they are some type of hybrid or am I mistaken at your point

[The Invested Beard]

46 minutes ago, bdoble97 said:

So you think they are some type of hybrid or am I mistaken at your point

I think that's the idea.

 

[Vissy]

If that's the idea behind it (any WoBs on that actually?) then Syladin would seem to be a slightly stronger ship.