[OB] Syladin

[Storm It!]

During the portion of the book when Kaladin and Co. go to 

Spoiler

shadesmar

and based on the ending of the book when 

Spoiler

Shallan and Adolin marry...which I couldn't be more happy for btw, 

I have to say that I am ready for a Syladin ship. I didn't know I needed this until then...but it happened. 

 

Does anyone else detect any hints that this might be a thing in the future or is this just strange wishful thinking on my part?

[Calyx]

She does hold him in Shadesmar, though I was a little disappointed that there wasn't more interaction there - I really expected Kaladin to be excited that he could actually physically interact with Syl.

[Rainier]

Honestly I find this super gross, like if people were rooting for Dalinar to marry Gallant or something.

She's not human, she's not even a part of the same realm as Kaladin, and you want them to...what exactly? Get married? Start a family? Live happily ever after? Syl's life is already in his hands, and she's already going to outlive him unless he kills her first. You want to add a romantic angle to this already fraught relationship? No thanks. She's his spren, not his lover, and I hope we keep it that way.

But, if you want to see what some other people have to say, check out this other thread:

Some people over there brought up the Syladin possibility, and while I reacted the same way there as I am here, you might find something new.

[Hero-of-Pages]

Syl isn't a horse...

Fantasy and sci-fi are wrought with interspecies relationships. Dwarves and Elves and Humans. Syl and Kaladin are both intelligent individuals capable of making their own decisions, developing relationships, and giving consent. Gallant can't. I don't have an issue with a listener and human relationship, or siah aimian and human, or siah aimian and listener. You might, and you might have a problem with Aragorn and Arwen, or Eragon and Arya for the reasons you stated, in which case I think you can stand by your argument I guess. But it is something that happens consistently.

For me the biggest problem I have with Syladin is simply a lack of understanding of spren biology, and that is only assuming that people want their relationship to evolve physically. For me I just love the relationship that has developed between the two. I see it as a wonderful friendship that I hope to see evolve more, whichever route Brandon takes. I appreciated the tender moments between Syl and Kal in Shadesmar. 

[Greywatch]

There's nothing wrong with discussing a ship, and any comparison to bestiality or incest when Kaladin and Syl are both thinking beings not related to each other is a bit uncalled for.

[Vissy]

I've always found Syladin a really cute ship, and a part of me wishes that it'll end up happening somehow. But honestly, OB was fairly devoid of anything romantic for Kaladin. And I think he considers Syl to be a part of his family so to speak, or rather a different but equally important family. A sibling. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Vissy

[Steeldancer]

I think they are a ship, but not a romantic relationship. But Syl is the only girl Kaladin needs. Even if it's not romantically. 

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

There's nothing wrong with discussing a ship, and any comparison to bestiality or incest when Kaladin and Syl are both thinking beings not related to each other is a bit uncalled for.

Ehhhhh, I don’t think “thinking beings” is where you can draw the line for beastiality. What if a certain kandra we know who inhabits an animal’s body was in a sexual relationship with a human? I think we’d all be squicked out at the beastiality of that, despite the fact said kandra is a thinking being (and some kandra are shown to be in sexual relationships with humans when inhabiting a human body.) I get some people are drawing the line between species in humanoid form versus those in non-humanoid form, but that doesn’t mean those that are drawing the boundaries a little stricter when is come to inter-species relationships are necessarily wrong to draw the beastiality comparison. The whole thing is rather tricky to discuss I know, so I do get why you’d rather avoid going down that rabbit hole, but that doesn’t make the opinion per se invalid. 

[Greywatch]

13 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Ehhhhh, I don’t think “thinking beings” is where you can draw the line for beastiality. What if a certain kandra we know who inhabits an animal’s body was in a sexual relationship with a human? I think we’d all be squicked out at the beastiality of that, despite the fact said kandra is a thinking being (and some kandra are shown to be in sexual relationships with humans when inhabiting a human body.) I get some people are drawing the line between species in humanoid form versus those in non-humanoid form, but that doesn’t mean those that are drawing the boundaries a little stricter when is come to inter-species relationships are necessarily wrong to draw the beastiality comparison. The whole thing is rather tricky to discuss I know, so I do get why you’d rather avoid going down that rabbit hole, but that doesn’t make the opinion per se invalid. 

I see what you're saying, but I feel like that's splitting hairs when that's not the first thing anyone ever thinks of when they hear the word. Even in those discussions, people would avoid using the word bestiality, because the first thing that comes to mind when it's used is "non-sapient animal", and I don't think it applies to Syl. I think most people here would agree it doesn't apply to Syl. It just sort of feels like using the worst possible applicable word to shame the op/people who like the ship.

[Song]

I love the topic, but I just can't see it happening, even if it was possible. Remember Kalladin met Syl when she was mentally like a little kid, it would feel kind of wrong, even though she is growing up, to have him see her that way.

[Dreamstorm]

7 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I see what you're saying, but I feel like that's splitting hairs when that's not the first thing anyone ever thinks of when they hear the word. Even in those discussions, people would avoid using the word bestiality, because the first thing that comes to mind when it's used is "non-sapient animal", and I don't think it applies to Syl. I think most people here would agree it doesn't apply to Syl. It just sort of feels like using the worst possible applicable word to shame the op/people who like the ship.

I totally get what you’re saying when it comes to inflammatory language, so that’s a very good point. I agree Syl is sentient, but I think if she was exactly the same in terms of sentience but her body took a different shape, feelings would be different about the comfort with her being in a sexual/romantic relationship with a human, thus anatomy plays a key role in how the relationship is perceived. (Hence animal kandra is icky for romantic purposes whereas the same species but in a human form is generally perceived as OK.) Now the fact Syl chooses to take a human woman’s form/the fact Kaladin’s perception of her has shaped her into a human woman’s form (I’m a little unclear on the gender/shape of spren TBH), could be telling - just as our kandra in question sought a human romantic relationship, could this be an unconscious way of either party (Syl or Kaladin) seeking such relationship? I’m babbling, but to me that is actually a pretty interesting facet of the question. 

[Greywatch]

35 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I totally get what you’re saying when it comes to inflammatory language, so that’s a very good point. I agree Syl is sentient, but I think if she was exactly the same in terms of sentience but her body took a different shape, feelings would be different about the comfort with her being in a sexual/romantic relationship with a human, thus anatomy plays a key role in how the relationship is perceived.

I don't disagree, actually! It's just not what's on the table here.

35 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Now the fact Syl chooses to take a human woman’s form/the fact Kaladin’s perception of her has shaped her into a human woman’s form (I’m a little unclear on the gender/shape of spren TBH), could be telling - just as our kandra in question sought a human romantic relationship, could this be an unconscious way of either party (Syl or Kaladin) seeking such relationship? I’m babbling, but to me that is actually a pretty interesting facet of the question. 

That's... really interesting, I had never thought of it like that, even being open to the ship. I had kind of always assumed Syl's outward appearance in the physical realm was all in Syl's control just as a reflection of how sapient/conscious she becomes. Gosh, now I think I'm gonna look and see if there's a WoB on this...

Edit: OKAY! 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/60-firefight-san-francisco-signing/#e6834

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2-jordancon-2016/#e233

This is about what I could find specifically on Syl's appearance. Both of these are pre-OB, so... I'm going to go on a little limb here and say that her ease in passing for a young human woman in the cognitive realm means that it's her og, automatically-drawn-to form.

[Dreamstorm]

21 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

That's... really interesting, I had never thought of it like that, even being open to the ship. I had kind of always assumed Syl's outward appearance in the physical realm was all in Syl's control just as a reflection of how sapient/conscious she becomes. Gosh, now I think I'm gonna look and see if there's a WoB on this...

So I found this which seems to suggest that the spren themselves select their gender identification (which is different than physical realm shape though is tied to it), though it’s a bit unclear whether it’s the human sexual orientation which shapes the spren’s gender or vice versa.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6-bands-of-mourning-release-party/#e349

Quote

little wilson

Is the gender of a spren bonded to a surgebinder based on sexual preferences?

Brandon Sanderson

It-- A lot of people are curious about this one… Not strictly but there is an influence there. But it's not strict. In other words Renarin having a male spren does not necessarily mean--

zas678

What some think it means?

Brandon Sanderson

-what some thinks it means. How about this you are more likely to bond a spren of an opposite gender-- a spren who identifies as an opposite gender, because spren don't actually have gender. But you are also more likely, statistically, to like members of the opposite gender. Those things have a correlation. Whether they have a causation is not a thing I am canonizing.

But contrast with this which suggests human perception shapes spren gender. (OB chapter 7, Watcher at the Rim)

Quote

Everything has a spren. His mother had taught him that from an early age. “So … some of my spears have been women, then?” he asked. “Female, at least,” Syl said. “Roughly half, as these things tend to go.” She flitted up into the air in front of him. “It’s your fault for personifying us, so no complaining. Of course, some of the old spren have four genders instead of two.” “What? Why?” She poked him in the nose. “Because humans didn’t imagine those ones, silly.”

So I have no idea! Syl is definitely mentioned as being really pretty (by multiple people), so I feel like that might be something? 

[Xaladin]

I'm surprised no one in this thread or the other have mentioned Syl's quote. What was it? "Be glad I'm the wrong kind of spren or I'd probably lick your forehead or something to get at your emotions"

This could probably serve either side of the argument.

[Greywatch]

2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

So I found this which seems to suggest that the spren themselves select their gender identification (which is different than physical realm shape though is tied to it), though it’s a bit unclear whether it’s the human sexual orientation which shapes the spren’s gender or vice versa.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6-bands-of-mourning-release-party/#e349

But contrast with this which suggests human perception shapes spren gender. (OB chapter 7, Watcher at the Rim)

So I have no idea! Syl is definitely mentioned as being really pretty (by multiple people), so I feel like that might be something? 

Could the OB quotes mean that the perception of humanity shapes the possibility for the genders? So it might not necessarily be that Syl is female because people see her as female, but people see spren as like them, so most (human-borne) spren are born within the same gender spectrum as humans are. She was referred to as Daughter within the cognitive realm, so it seems like Syl was female before she entered the physical realm.

Do you recall where she was called pretty? I actually don't recall, heh.

[Dreamstorm]

6 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Could the OB quotes mean that the perception of humanity shapes the possibility for the genders? So it might not necessarily be that Syl is female because people see her as female, but people see spren as like them, so most (human-borne) spren are born within the same gender spectrum as humans are. She was referred to as Daughter within the cognitive realm, so it seems like Syl was female before she entered the physical realm.

So human (/listener in the olden days) perceptions defines the gender parameters but the spren themselves have the choice within those parameters? That makes sense to me. Now does it matter that Syl chose to be female and bonded Kaladin? No clue... though that WoB does seem to suggest some sort of sexual preference correlation (though he backs off from causation.) There’s that WoB which almost 100% shuts down the ship, so not sure if spren and sexual preference matters from a romantic perspective. But then again I think a WoB almost 100% shut down the shardblade revival possibility, which seems to be very much on the table with Maya. These WoB’s are always a mindstorm...

11 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Do you recall where she was called pretty? I actually don't recall, heh.

The below is from Adolin in Ch 89 Damanation, and I thought we had similar observations from Shallan and Rock though I can’t locate them at the moment... I always got the impression Syl was a pretty hot honorspren, but maybe I’m just projecting, LOL. 

Quote

But what of the pretty, blue-white spren girl?

 

[Greywatch]

18 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

So human (/listener in the olden days) perceptions defines the gender parameters but the spren themselves have the choice within those parameters? That makes sense to me. Now does it matter that Syl chose to be female and bonded Kaladin? No clue... though that WoB does seem to suggest some sort of sexual preference correlation (though he backs off from causation.) There’s that WoB which almost 100% shuts down the ship, so not sure if spren and sexual preference matters from a romantic perspective. But then again I think a WoB almost 100% shut down the shardblade revival possibility, which seems to be very much on the table with Maya. These WoB’s are always a mindstorm...

That is the truth. But then there's fun in the not-canon spaces, too!

19 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

The below is from Adolin in Ch 89 Damanation, and I thought we had similar observations from Shallan and Rock though I can’t locate them at the moment... I always got the impression Syl was a pretty hot honorspren, but maybe I’m just projecting, LOL. 

Oh, shoot, you're right, you're right...! It's funny because as soon as I read that, I remembered having an opinion on Adolin's opinion - it was funny because nobody had really commented on Syl's... like, relative attractiveness before? I mean, Kaladin is always observing her and her presentation (and honestly, his opinion of it is so great/funny to read), but it was a little different to get the outsider's view by someone who'd never seen her before - and I guess it turns out she's pretty!

(If you do find that Rock quote, I'd be interested! But I think I gotta crash now.)

[Dreamstorm]

24 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

If you do find that Rock quote, I'd be interested! But I think I gotta crash now.

I think I inferred “pretty” from the below, which doesn’t say it. Hmmm... this was even before Adolin notes it (twice actually!, he says it again later in the Damnation chapter when he connects the “pretty girl in blue” to Kaladin’s spren), so I’m not sure why I had such a strong association in my mind about Syl’s attractiveness... well, anyways, Adolin is a connoisseur so he would approve of the ship, ha!

Quote

Lunamor almost stumbled into his own cauldron as he saw what was assembling on the plateau to his left. Gods! Strong gods, like Sylphrena. Glowing a faint blue, they clustered around a tall spren woman, who had long hair streaming behind her. She had taken the shape of a person, human sized, and wore an elegant gown. [...]

“You,” a feminine voice said beside him, “are so wonderfully respectful, it borders on being silly.” Lunamor turned to find Sylphrena sitting on the side of his cauldron, in her small and girlish shape, legs crossed and hanging over the edge.

 

[Valand]

About Syl's appearance - I thought there were some descriptions of her so I searched in books. I found some quotes.

Quote

A translucent figure—just a handspan tall—peeked up from over the edge of the floor near Kaladin. She climbed up and into the wagon, as if scaling some high plateau. The windspren had taken the shape of a young woman—larger spren could change shapes and sizes—with an angular face and long, flowing hair that faded into mist behind her head. She—Kaladin couldn’t help but think of the windspren as a she—was formed of pale blues and whites and wore a simple, flowing white dress of a girlish cut that came down to midcalf. Like the hair, it faded to mist at the very bottom. Her feet, hands, and face were crisply distinct, and she had the hips and bust of a slender woman.

The Way of Kings ch.3

Quote

She moved in close to Kaladin, the motion outlining her face at the front of the cloud, as if blowing back the fog and revealing something more substantial underneath. Vaporous, feminine, and angular. With such curious eyes. Like no other spren he’d seen.

The Way of Kings ch.4

Quote

That soft, feminine face had a nobler, more angular cast to it now, like a warrior from a forgotten time. Not childlike at all.

The Way of Kings ch.38

Quote

Lopen suddenly gasped. Syl had made herself visible to him.
“Ah…” Rock said, bowing in respect to Syl. “Like gathering reeds.”
“Well flick my sparks,” Lopen said. “Rock, you never said it was so pretty!”
Syl smiled broadly.
“Be respectful,” Rock said. “Is not for you to speak of her in that way, little person.”

The Way of Kings ch.49

I didn't find anything relevant in part when Syl show herself to Sigzil.

Quote

“Tell you?” she asked, becoming the image of a full-size young woman standing on the wall before him. She was nearly as tall as he was, her dress fading to mist. “Tell you what?”

Words of Radiance ch.41

It would appear Syl is tall IIRC Kaladin is very tall, I think only Rock is taller than him in Bridge 4.

 

Quote

He almost collided with a young woman with blue-white skin, pale as snow, wearing a filmy dress that rippled in the wind.

Quote

But what of the pretty, blue-white spren girl?

Oathbringer ch.87 and 89

Those two were already mentioned.

Quote

Curiously, Syl still wore an illusion, making her face an Alethi tan, her hair black, her clothing red. Was being an honorspren really that big a deal?

Oathbringer ch.100

This is about ilussion made by Shallan.

I couldn't find any specific reactions from Rock or Shallan mentioned earlier.

I didn't include those mentioning only clothes like her wearing Havah or clothes bought in Shadesmar

[Vissy]

"Was being an honorspren really that big a deal?"

Hmm... mmm...

If it wasn't as big of a deal...

Why would she ask Shallan to make her more human-like and prettier? 

[Valand]

42 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Why would she ask Shallan to make her more human-like and prettier? 

Well there was a bounty on her. Could be easily explained as her trying to blend in as human. Same with her wearing hat and poncho. 
Was there mention making her prettier? I don't remember that.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Valand
spelling

[Vissy]

As I recall, she had Shallan make it look as if she had some makeup on. Red lips. Maybe that's just my subconscious inference, but that's how I read it anyhow.

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Valand said:

The Way of Kings ch.38

Quote

Lopen suddenly gasped. Syl had made herself visible to him.
“Ah…” Rock said, bowing in respect to Syl. “Like gathering reeds.”
“Well flick my sparks,” Lopen said. “Rock, you never said it was so pretty!”
Syl smiled broadly.
“Be respectful,” Rock said. “Is not for you to speak of her in that way, little person.”

Yes, thank you!  I think this may have been when I got Syl = pretty into my head.  Of course, I was offending Rock by attributing this to him 

16 minutes ago, Vissy said:

As I recall, she had Shallan make it look as if she had some makeup on. Red lips. Maybe that's just my subconscious inference, but that's how I read it anyhow.

Totally agree there seems to be a theme of how Syl is presented, even if the exact words aren't always there.  So... does this mean anything?  Considering she can be any form she wants in the physical world, why does she choose to present herself like this to Kaladin?  (Unless it's just a mimicry of her cognitive world form, and I don't think spren have much, if any, control over that.)

[Rainier]

15 hours ago, Hero-of-Pages said:

Syl isn't a horse...

Neither are Ryshadium. Sure, Ryshadium equine and not hominid, but we don't care about that because, again, Syl doesn't even inhabit the same realm, never mind the sharing the same basic anatomy. At least Dalinar and Gallant are both mammals...

15 hours ago, Hero-of-Pages said:

Syl and Kaladin are both intelligent individuals capable of making their own decisions, developing relationships, and giving consent. Gallant can't.

Sure he can. Ryshadium aren't horses and they are intelligent and sentient. That was the whole point of using it as an example: two intelligent and sentient species that are storming gross to ship together. That's exactly how I feel about human-spren relations. 

The Nahel bond is actually a lot like humans and Ryshadium, in that way. There's some sort of bond between individuals, but it's a unique and special bond that shouldn't be sullied or muddied with romantic and sexual aspects.

15 hours ago, Greywatch said:

There's nothing wrong with discussing a ship, and any comparison to bestiality or incest when Kaladin and Syl are both thinking beings not related to each other is a bit uncalled for.

What would you call bestiality if not inter-species relationships? Would you cut off the sentient species? I've already argued that Ryshadium should be on the human side of that cutoff, and I believe it's true. So Dalinar and Gallant are both thinking beings not related to each other, they already have a Very Special Bond, why shouldn't I compare it to Kaladin and Syl?

13 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I think most people here would agree it doesn't apply to Syl. It just sort of feels like using the worst possible applicable word to shame the op/people who like the ship.

It's not the word I used, it's what you used to describe my example of Dalinar/Gallant. I'll admit to the juxtaposition for the very reason that it's taboo because that's how I feel about Kaladin and Syl. It wasn't to shame anyone, but rather to express my own discomfort at the thought. Not sure where incest came from, but in general I'd find consensual incest to be more palatable than Kaladin trying to have sex with Syl, or, god forbid, the reverse.

I've got no problem with a pretty Syl, and I'd even expect it, but trying to shoehorn the regular human-human sexual urges, customs, and expectations into the very special human-spren bond strikes me as both taboo and blasphemous.

[bdoble97]

Yes yes yes and yes. I have wanted this to happen since Words of Radiance and have posted my thoughts on this at least two or three times in the past. Correct me if I'm wrong but at the end of OB when Syl is kind of consoling  Kaladin about Shallan and Adolin. Does it Kalidin say to himself she's so ignorant doesn't she  realize that he only needs her. To me that's a definite big foreshadowing that he only needs her and wants only her even if he doesn't truly understand his feelings yet. Love is a big weird messy thing.