[OB] Kelsier vs Kaladin

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

No worries.  

Oh, I get what you are saying now; sorry, cutting back on caffeine has be slow today.  You are saying that the Reverse Lashing is Investing in the target object (say Kal's Shield) and all that is touching the spike/arrows is a natural physical effect as a gravity well, absent investiture.  I like and could certainly see it working that way, though with Realmics as they are it could always play out as a Spiritual Realm, Connection sort of thing too, I guess.   I'll admit Im a little hesitant to call it a gravity well, just because it seem to pull arrows in flight that had quite a bit of force/momentum in them, but I dont recall it pulling dirt or nearby dust clouds or any other lightweight things nearby.  Which could just be that he didnt spend the time describing it for doylistic reasons (scene pacing an whatnot), but it might be that it is somehow more selective.  Though if it plays out that way, @Kingsdaughter613's suggestion that the Windrunner's Perception alters the Reverse Lashing targeting would become a lot more plausible.  

That’s essentially how I read that scene. Otherwise Kal should have pulled some of his armor into the shield, which obviously didn’t happen. (The armor was attached to him, not the ground, and was right next to the gravity source.) There is definitely an element of connection.

[Quantus]

8 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

That’s essentially how I read that scene. Otherwise Kal should have pulled some of his armor into the shield, which obviously didn’t happen. (The armor was attached to him, not the ground, and was right next to the gravity source.) There is definitely an element of connection.

The armor, and maybe even some of his own possessions, I could see him subconsciously excluding as part of some vague "Self" bubble (though that would itself also be an example of his Perception mattering), but that definitely shouldnt extend to battle dust and whatnot.  

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

No worries.  

Oh, I get what you are saying now; sorry, cutting back on caffeine has be slow today.  You are saying that the Reverse Lashing is Investing in the target object (say Kal's Shield) and all that is touching the spike/arrows is a natural physical effect as a gravity well, absent investiture.  I like and could certainly see it working that way, though with Realmics as they are it could always play out as a Spiritual Realm, Connection sort of thing too, I guess.   I'll admit Im a little hesitant to call it a gravity well, just because it seem to pull arrows in flight that had quite a bit of force/momentum in them, but I dont recall it pulling dirt or nearby dust clouds or any other lightweight things nearby.  Which could just be that he didnt spend the time describing it for doylistic reasons (scene pacing an whatnot), but it might be that it is somehow more selective.  Though if it plays out that way, @Kingsdaughter613's suggestion that the Windrunner's Perception alters the Reverse Lashing targeting would become a lot more plausible.  

 

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

That’s essentially how I read that scene. Otherwise Kal should have pulled some of his armor into the shield, which obviously didn’t happen. (The armor was attached to him, not the ground, and was right next to the gravity source.) There is definitely an element of connection.

Replying to both @Quantus and @Kingsdaughter613 here

So the Ars Arcanum (which can be disproved because it is only Khriss's observations that can be revealed to be inaccurate later. which I am only saying to indicate that I am admitting this is not an absolute truth. It could be wrong) says 

"The windrunner would infuse something, give a mental command, and create a pull to the object that yanked other objects towards it. At its heart, this lashing created a bubble around the object that imitated its spiritual link to the ground beneath it. As such, it was much harder for the lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet was strongest. Objects falling or in flight were the easiest to influence. Other objects could be affected, but the stormlight and skill required were much more substantial"

So it does say spiritual link, so from what you were saying @Quantus then if the spiritual link is considered investiture acting upon, then I guess as per the Ars Arcanum then it would not affect the spike. Personally I think since it is referring to creating an effect that creates an alternative "link" it would still work. Just objects that are not in flight, are not as affected. That is a poor way of putting it and may be more semantics, but its the best I can come up with at this time. 

[Quantus]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

 

Replying to both @Quantus and @Kingsdaughter613 here

So the Ars Arcanum (which can be disproved because it is only Khriss's observations that can be revealed to be inaccurate later. which I am only saying to indicate that I am admitting this is not an absolute truth. It could be wrong) says 

"The windrunner would infuse something, give a mental command, and create a pull to the object that yanked other objects towards it. At its heart, this lashing created a bubble around the object that imitated its spiritual link to the ground beneath it. As such, it was much harder for the lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet was strongest. Objects falling or in flight were the easiest to influence. Other objects could be affected, but the stormlight and skill required were much more substantial"

So it does say spiritual link, so from what you were saying @Quantus then if the spiritual link is considered investiture acting upon, then I guess as per the Ars Arcanum then it would not affect the spike. Personally I think since it is referring to creating an effect that creates an alternative "link" it would still work. Just objects that are not in flight, are not as affected. That is a poor way of putting it and may be more semantics, but its the best I can come up with at this time. 

Ooof, that's both an awesome find (kudo's) and entirely complicating the matter.  We knew that Gravitation, or at leas the Basic Lashing, was about re-directing the Connection to the planet that in the Cosmere is apparently the root of Gravity.  But we also know that the effect exists at least somewhat in the Physical Realm since it operates based on physical location/proximity.  It also sounds like it does rely on the Windrunner to some extend, but perhaps has some inherent "defaults" the way Soulcasting does. That passage explains why it doesnt affect every object in the radius, and also implies that Connections-via-physical Contact are going to be able to tip the scales. 

Going back to the test case of an Aluminum Nail with a Steel Head, I think Im leaning more and more to it just not working for either of them, but with the caveat that both might theoretically pull it off with enough Skill AND additional Investiture in the Push.