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[OB] Kelsier vs Kaladin


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Kelsior took on an Inquisitor in a one on one fight, while protecting other people.  No tricks.  No special metals.  Not even any Atium.  It's been a while since Brandon wrote for a Mistborn, if you don't count Secret History.  As in 12 years.  Which was before the first Stormlight came out.  I think he forgets just how many one on one fights and just how many big battles he showcased with Mistborn dominating everything.

 

Also, the Mistborn he wrote about were all thieves.  They all liked sneaking around.   A Mistborn trained for warfare would be something completely different.  Elend was NOT Sneaky McSneakerington.  He was front line in the battle raging against Koloss type.  Elend, with some more battle training, would most certainly give Kaladin a run for his money in the number of enemies killed.  And elend's enemies were bigger and stronger.  Kaladin might fight a single Thunderclast at some point, but there's usually only one or two of those in a battle.  Koloss get to be 12 feet tall, wielding weapons as big as they are.  And Elend killed them as a matter of course.

 

I see no way in the books that a Mistborn isn't as effective on the battlefield.  It just doesn't make sense.  Kelsior was sneaky, Vin was sneaky, and the House Lords usually used Mistborn as assassins, but the only reason they did that was because NOTHING COULD TOUCH THEM.  They were the ultimate trump card.  They were rare, and therefore wasted on the battlefield.  But when they WERE on the battlefield, they dominated EVERYTHING.  And we have not seen a single Hazekiller actually do much damage to a Mistborn.  They just slow them down a little.  But we HAVE seen normal people pull a Shardbarer down and take them out.  It would be harder, potentially impossible, for normal people to do that to a Radiant while they have investiture, but still.  A single Mistborn do just as much damage, if not more so, to an enemy army as a single Radiant can, and they can do it from a distance.  The main advantage a Radiant has over a Mistborn is that the blade is not dependent on Investiture, so even if they lose all their Stormlight, they still have a blade, but once they lose all their investiture, all it takes to kill them is a rusted nail, assuming the Mistborn has enough steel and iron to push it.  

 

And someone said something about Mistborn not being able to set up a medical tent or help with support.  Why not?  A doctor with Pewter and tin who can work quicker with precision and heightened senses, Pewter for helping with construction, Brass and Copper for psychological support and leadership, Bronze for scouting.  There are all kinds of support roles a Mistborn could use.  No, they can't outright heal other people (the Surge of Regrowth is one of my favorites), but all of that is simply training.  Mistborn in the books usually train on how to kill people, but a Knife can just as easily perform surgery or cut potatoes as it can stab someone.  I love in The Alloy of Law how Brandon started showcasing people using their Allomancy for things other than fighting.  Soothing and Rioting bars, Coinshot couriers, and the like.  That makes so much more sense than everyone always using their power to fight all the time.  That's not real life.  If I woke up tomorrow and I was a Mistborn, my first thought wouldn't be "Oh gee, look at how many cool ways I can kill someone!"  Honestly, it would be "How can I make money off this?"  Yeah, Radiants have powers that directly help with things like that, but even just having all that Pewter gives can help in numerous career fields.  

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11 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Kelsior took on an Inquisitor in a one on one fight, while protecting other people.  No tricks.  No special metals.  Not even any Atium.  It's been a while since Brandon wrote for a Mistborn, if you don't count Secret History.  As in 12 years.  Which was before the first Stormlight came out.  I think he forgets just how many one on one fights and just how many big battles he showcased with Mistborn dominating everything.

 

Also, the Mistborn he wrote about were all thieves.  They all liked sneaking around.   A Mistborn trained for warfare would be something completely different.  Elend was NOT Sneaky McSneakerington.  He was front line in the battle raging against Koloss type.  Elend, with some more battle training, would most certainly give Kaladin a run for his money in the number of enemies killed.  And elend's enemies were bigger and stronger.  Kaladin might fight a single Thunderclast at some point, but there's usually only one or two of those in a battle.  Koloss get to be 12 feet tall, wielding weapons as big as they are.  And Elend killed them as a matter of course.

 

I see no way in the books that a Mistborn isn't as effective on the battlefield.  It just doesn't make sense.  Kelsior was sneaky, Vin was sneaky, and the House Lords usually used Mistborn as assassins, but the only reason they did that was because NOTHING COULD TOUCH THEM.  They were the ultimate trump card.  They were rare, and therefore wasted on the battlefield.  But when they WERE on the battlefield, they dominated EVERYTHING.  And we have not seen a single Hazekiller actually do much damage to a Mistborn.  They just slow them down a little.  But we HAVE seen normal people pull a Shardbarer down and take them out.  It would be harder, potentially impossible, for normal people to do that to a Radiant while they have investiture, but still.  A single Mistborn do just as much damage, if not more so, to an enemy army as a single Radiant can, and they can do it from a distance.  The main advantage a Radiant has over a Mistborn is that the blade is not dependent on Investiture, so even if they lose all their Stormlight, they still have a blade, but once they lose all their investiture, all it takes to kill them is a rusted nail, assuming the Mistborn has enough steel and iron to push it.  

 

And someone said something about Mistborn not being able to set up a medical tent or help with support.  Why not?  A doctor with Pewter and tin who can work quicker with precision and heightened senses, Pewter for helping with construction, Brass and Copper for psychological support and leadership, Bronze for scouting.  There are all kinds of support roles a Mistborn could use.  No, they can't outright heal other people (the Surge of Regrowth is one of my favorites), but all of that is simply training.  Mistborn in the books usually train on how to kill people, but a Knife can just as easily perform surgery or cut potatoes as it can stab someone.  I love in The Alloy of Law how Brandon started showcasing people using their Allomancy for things other than fighting.  Soothing and Rioting bars, Coinshot couriers, and the like.  That makes so much more sense than everyone always using their power to fight all the time.  That's not real life.  If I woke up tomorrow and I was a Mistborn, my first thought wouldn't be "Oh gee, look at how many cool ways I can kill someone!"  Honestly, it would be "How can I make money off this?"  Yeah, Radiants have powers that directly help with things like that, but even just having all that Pewter gives can help in numerous career fields.  

You forget that Kal is basically imune to Kelisier He'd heal right over coins fired at him Shallan had an arrow basically in her brain and was fine. Kelisier can't even come within spear range though because Kal would end him with Syl. You forget Kal is all but unkillable while he has stormlight, and has an instant kill in his hand. Kelisier doesn't stand a chance. 

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43 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

You forget that Kal is basically imune to Kelisier He'd heal right over coins fired at him Shallan had an arrow basically in her brain and was fine. Kelisier can't even come within spear range though because Kal would end him with Syl. You forget Kal is all but unkillable while he has stormlight, and has an instant kill in his hand. Kelisier doesn't stand a chance. 

Shallan was not at all well. She had lost the use of her left hand, was unable to speak and when they pulled the dart out she passed out from the pain. The trick is to leave the weapon stuck inside the radiant so it cannot regenerate and continue hitting. Sooner or later the Stormlight will end.

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44 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

Shallan was not at all well. She had lost the use of her left hand, was unable to speak and when they pulled the dart out she passed out from the pain. The trick is to leave the weapon stuck inside the radiant so it cannot regenerate and continue hitting. Sooner or later the Stormlight will end.

Kal is a surgeon he'd just dig it out with a Shard Scalpel or something like that he wouldn't even be that bothered without strait up F-gold which Kelisier can't use he can't do more than inconvenience Kaladin.

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Healing with Stormlight requires stormlight.  Without Plate, Kelsior would wipe the floor with Kal, cause all he'd have to do is throw a coin and cause it to rip through him over and over again, forcing him to use Stormlight to heal it until the Stormlight ran out. And it would hurt.  

 

With Plate, it would be a lot harder, unless he had Atium, in which case its game over.  250 Atium Mistings took on an army of 100,000 Koloss and only lost once their Atium ran out.  A Mistborn with Atium kills everything.

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2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Healing with Stormlight requires stormlight.  Without Plate, Kelsior would wipe the floor with Kal, cause all he'd have to do is throw a coin and cause it to rip through him over and over again, forcing him to use Stormlight to heal it until the Stormlight ran out. And it would hurt.  

 

With Plate, it would be a lot harder, unless he had Atium, in which case its game over.  250 Atium Mistings took on an army of 100,000 Koloss and only lost once their Atium ran out.  A Mistborn with Atium kills everything.

Even with Atium he stands no chance  atium burns too quickly plus Kelisier can only fire coins dead on, and Kal can summon a shield in a thought. In the skies Kaladin Is faster and more manuverable And on top of that Kaladin hit's too hard to take even just an arm slows Kelisier down too much as he can't get his metals fast enough. Kal runs him down and ends him in like 5 seconds, Kel just can't hit back. And once Kal get's plate you won't even be able to think about Kelisier winning. Kal just can't be hurt by anything Kelisier has access to.

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2 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Even with Atium he stands no chance  atium burns too quickly plus Kelisier can only fire coins dead on, and Kal can summon a shield in a thought. In the skies Kaladin Is faster and more manuverable And on top of that Kaladin hit's too hard to take even just an arm slows Kelisier down too much as he can't get his metals fast enough. Kal runs him down and ends him in like 5 seconds, Kel just can't hit back. And once Kal get's plate you won't even be able to think about Kelisier winning. Kal just can't be hurt by anything Kelisier has access to.

I agree.

It may seem like Atium is kelsiers win condition, but even with it it would be really hard to kill kal.

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Atium allowed an otherwise vanilla human to overpower and defeat a Lerasium Mistborn.  it burns fast, but thirty seconds for a single nugget is long enough to get in close and do what needs to be done.  If you can see the future, nothing can stop you.  It doesn't matter how hard Kaladin hits, if his opponent is burning Atium, he loses.  Period.  His head is coming off, as are any arms or legs that get in the way.  Sure, they'll grow back, but no where near fast enough to actually help.  They said so in The Alloy of Law.  You can kill a Bloodmaker, you just have to keep shooting until he stops healing.  

 

With Plate, it'll be harder, potentially a lot harder, but still not impossible with Atium.  Yeah, Kal can make a shield with a thought, but the Atium burner would see the shield and know it was coming before Kal thought to make it.  He would see when the Radiant lowered the shield, and for how long, and know exactly when to strike.  Sure, the Radiant can just sit with a shield in front of his face and wait for the Atium to go out, but the Mistborn won't just be sitting there.  That's the only strategy I can see working, to be honest.  Survive until the Atium runs out, and hope the Mistborn doesn't see a way around your defenses.  

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Provided Kell has the knowledge of what he’s facing, he can create an aluminum spike, then weld a piece of steel to the wide top. It can even be a tiny spike.

Kal will see the spike as a whole object. Since most of that object is aluminum, his lashings won’t effect it. (If he lashed the tiny nub it would, but he wouldn’t know it’s there.)

Kell throws a bunch of coins + the tiny spike. Kal uses his lashings to redirect; the spike flies true and pierces Kal’s heart. Kell pulls out the hemalurgically charged spike. 

Unless Stormlight can heal the stolen part of Kal’s soul, this will probably kill him. If not, it will use a ton of Stormlight to heal,  which will make him much easier to kill permanently thereafter.

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I don't see Kelisier being able to hit hard enough for kaladin to do more than look at it. Kal just can't be hurt by Kel's weapons. Kel on the other hand wont be able to get within a spear's length of a guy that can come flying towards him. Kelisier stands no chance.

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9 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Provided Kell has the knowledge of what he’s facing, he can create an aluminum spike, then weld a piece of steel to the wide top. It can even be a tiny spike.

Kal will see the spike as a whole object. Since most of that object is aluminum, his lashings won’t effect it. (If he lashed the tiny nub it would, but he wouldn’t know it’s there.)

Kell throws a bunch of coins + the tiny spike. Kal uses his lashings to redirect; the spike flies true and pierces Kal’s heart. Kell pulls out the hemalurgically charged spike. 

Unless Stormlight can heal the stolen part of Kal’s soul, this will probably kill him. If not, it will use a ton of Stormlight to heal,  which will make him much easier to kill permanently thereafter.

Not sure that's right; the only surge that Kaladin has which requires targeting also requires physical Contact.  His only ranged move is the Reverse Lashing, and that pulls everything (that it can effect) toward it, so the steel bit would be just as capable of being affected by Kal as by Kel.   In that contest Kal is basically a super-versatile Lurcher, one that can only pull but can affect stone and wood and all those other things immune to Allomancy, and can pull toward other objects rather than just himself.   Well, a super-Lurcher that can actually fly and has an intelligent shape-shifting sword made of un-Pushable godmetal that cuts your very soul...

Edited by Quantus
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4 hours ago, Quantus said:

Not sure that's right; the only surge that Kaladin has which requires targeting also requires physical Contact.  His only ranged move is the Reverse Lashing, and that pulls everything (that it can effect) toward it, so the steel bit would be just as capable of being affected by Kal as by Kel.   In that contest Kal is basically a super-versatile Lurcher, one that can only pull but can affect stone and wood and all those other things immune to Allomancy, and can pull toward other objects rather than just himself.   Well, a super-Lurcher that can actually fly and has an intelligent shape-shifting sword made of un-Pushable godmetal that cuts your very soul...

The question is whether it’s considered part of the aluminum spike. Since Kal is doing the lashing, the lashing should be bound to his perspective, ie. one aluminum object.

Kell can see the different parts of a metal object as different pieces, so he can push on the nub.

It depends on how much the perspective of the lasher is reflected in what happens. Perspective does play an important role in how things work in the Cosmere.

It may also depend on how the SPIKE sees itself - if it sees itself as a single object that is basically aluminum, then the lashing shouldn’t effect it. Since Kell can see the separate parts of a single object, he should still be able to push it.

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3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The question is whether it’s considered part of the aluminum spike. Since Kal is doing the lashing, the lashing should be bound to his perspective, ie. one aluminum object.

Kell can see the different parts of a metal object as different pieces, so he can push on the nub.

It depends on how much the perspective of the lasher is reflected in what happens. Perspective does play an important role in how things work in the Cosmere.

It may also depend on how the SPIKE sees itself - if it sees itself as a single object that is basically aluminum, then the lashing shouldn’t effect it. Since Kell can see the separate parts of a single object, he should still be able to push it.

I think what quantus is trying to say is there is a difference between investiture directly acting on something, and the nature of that investiture acting on something.

So steel pushing is the power directly acting on an object. If that object is aluminum it will not work. You counter this issue with the steel piece

Gravitation surge requires power directly acting on the object. You are touching and changing the gravity of the object. Aluminum would prevent this

The surge that created a "black hole" like effect (forgot the name). The investiture is acting directly on the point that kaladin is touching. That act creates a black hole like effect. A gravity well if you will.  The gravity well itself is not investiture acting on the aluminum. So the pull of gravity should (based on my understand and i think quantus understanding) still pull at the aluminum spike. Because it is not directly acting upon the aluminum spike. It is creating a current that would draw anything,  of which the aluminum spike would be included 

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Just now, Pathfinder said:

I think what quantus is trying to say is there is a difference between investiture directly acting on something, and the nature of that investiture acting on something.

So steel pushing is the power directly acting on an object. If that object is aluminum it will not work. You counter this issue with the steel piece

Gravitation surge requires power directly acting on the object. You are touching and changing the gravity of the object. Aluminum would prevent this

The surge that created a "black hole" like effect (forgot the name). The investiture is acting directly on the point that kaladin is touching. That act creates a black hole like effect. A gravity well if you will.  The gravity well itself is not investiture acting on the aluminum. So the pull of gravity should (based on my understand and i think quantus understanding) still pull at the aluminum spike. Because it is not directly acting upon the aluminum spike. It is creating a current that would draw anything,  of which the aluminum spike would be included 

So the question becomes, does a reverse lashing work on aluminum...

It’s technically irrelevant though, as Kell only receives this knowledge post-mortem. If he’s able to use a spike, then he’s also Fullborn (probably).

But I do think a Mistborn could use a spike to defeat a Windrunner, if only by spiking the Spren. Which would be a very cruel and nasty trick...

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14 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

So the question becomes, does a reverse lashing work on aluminum...

It’s technically irrelevant though, as Kell only receives this knowledge post-mortem. If he’s able to use a spike, then he’s also Fullborn (probably).

But I do think a Mistborn could use a spike to defeat a Windrunner, if only by spiking the Spren. Which would be a very cruel and nasty trick...

If I may, another example I was going to add to possibly illustrate because I personally believe the question is not so much does the reverse lashing work on aluminum, but does the effect do so. I think this example might convey my thoughts better (though keep in mind this is also hypothetical as I am using the surge division in this example, and there is much we do not know about it. So in order to use this example, we will have to assume some things)

So if we assume using division on an object directly burns/decays/what have you. Then if Kelsier throws this spike and the dusbringer tries to touch and melt the object directly, then nothing would happen. 

Now conversely if the dustrbringer perhaps sets fire to the ground, and that heat is so great, so overwhelming, that it super heats the air, then the spike passing through that space (to me) should be able to be melted. Because it is not the surge acting directly on the spike. It is a byproduct of the surge acting on the object. So too, to me, then the gravity well effect should still affect the spike, as the gravity well affects objects. The surgebinder is not attempting to make the spike the focus of the gravity well. if that was the case, to me it would not work. The surgebinder is creating the gravity well effect, of which the effect acts on the spike. 

At least that is what I believe. And what I think Quantus was trying to convey. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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On 1/7/2020 at 10:22 PM, Tglassy said:

Koloss get to be 12 feet tall, wielding weapons as big as they are.  And Elend killed them as a matter of course.

They are also extraordinarily stupid. 

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So too, to me, then the gravity well effect should still affect the spike, as the gravity well affects objects. The surgebinder is not attempting to make the spike the focus of the gravity well. if that was the case, to me it would not work. The surgebinder is creating the gravity well effect, of which the effect acts on the spike. 

At least that is what I believe. And what I think Quantus was trying to convey. 

It could go either way.  For example aluminum weapons do not give atium shadows.

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That’s what I meant. Would the effect of a reverse lashing work on aluminum? I think we need to know more... including on how the surge works. We really haven’t seen it enough.

Assuming the lashing does pull at the spike, that doesn’t preclude a mistborn from manipulating it; they fight gravity all the time. The spike would be hidden among coins, which would all be drawn to the lashing. Only at the last moment would the spike be manipulated to go elsewhere, so Kal wouldn’t know to increase the force of the surge.

Spiking Syl would probably be faster though. Without her, Kal loses very quickly. Actually, going after the Spren is exactly the sort of thing I’d expect Kell to do...

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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1 minute ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

It could go either way.  For example aluminum weapons do not give atium shadows.

Totally respect your thoughts. For myself I do not think so. I believe atium shadows are not produced by aluminum weapons, because the atium shadows is the investiture power. Ok, I thought of this other example, and you can totally disagree with this other example. I am just writing it because I thought of another way to convey it

If kelsier tries to push on an aluminum spike nothing happens

if kelsier pushes on a piece of metal, and that metal hit the aluminum spike, the aluminum spike then moves

 

So in the case of atium and shadows, for myself it would be for instance seeing an atium shadow of someone dying. You do not see the atium shadow of the arrow penetrating the person, but you can still ascertain something is coming that will kill that person. 

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32 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The question is whether it’s considered part of the aluminum spike. Since Kal is doing the lashing, the lashing should be bound to his perspective, ie. one aluminum object.

Kell can see the different parts of a metal object as different pieces, so he can push on the nub.

It depends on how much the perspective of the lasher is reflected in what happens. Perspective does play an important role in how things work in the Cosmere.

It may also depend on how the SPIKE sees itself - if it sees itself as a single object that is basically aluminum, then the lashing shouldn’t effect it. Since Kell can see the separate parts of a single object, he should still be able to push it.

That is the case with Steel-pushed that are targeted but not in the case of Reverse Lashings, he doesnt need to even be aware of the objects, it's more of a field effect.  

Here's the differences as I see them:  Kell can (theoretically) choose to target just the steel piece of the spike if he's good enough, while Kal cannot selectively target but can affect regardless of his own awareness, so both have equal chance of effecting the Steel portion of the spike.  However, WOB says that Aluminum disrupts things in a sort of field effect, so it's possible that the proximity and/or contact with the aluminum will be enough to disrupt both effects.  

2 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

That’s what I meant. Would the effect of a reverse lashing work on aluminum?

That one at least is is easy and is a Firm "No" just like all the other surges, and apologize if I gave the impression that I was arguing for that.  The question I was trying to raise was whether a Steel-push and a Reverse Lashing would be able to push on the Steel portion of the combo spike you desribed, steel that close to and touching Aluminum, or if the aluminum field effect would stop them.  But I think the answer would apply equally to both, so I dont think it would be represent a tactical advantage to either.  

In my opinion, the real deciding factor between those two abilities (if not those two characters overall) is the fact that the Reverse Lashing works on all non-invested materials other than Aluminum, while Allomancy is just as ineffective against aluminum but also every other non-metal option.  Wood spears, stone or bone arrowheads, ceramic bullets, etc would all blow right past an allomancers defenses.  

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Is aluminum shielding from emotional Allomancy strictly line of sight? So, can someone in the basement bypass somebody’s aluminum hat on the first floor

Brandon Sanderson

No, they could not. You just put enough aluminum there and it disrupts.

Questioner

So it disrupts like a field.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

 
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12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Totally respect your thoughts. For myself I do not think so. I believe atium shadows are not produced by aluminum weapons, because the atium shadows is the investiture power. Ok, I thought of this other example, and you can totally disagree with this other example. I am just writing it because I thought of another way to convey it

If kelsier tries to push on an aluminum spike nothing happens

if kelsier pushes on a piece of metal, and that metal hit the aluminum spike, the aluminum spike then moves

I actually personally agree with your first supposition.  I just wanted to give the other side of the argument some merit.

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19 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

That’s what I meant. Would the effect of a reverse lashing work on aluminum? I think we need to know more... including on how the surge works. We really haven’t seen it enough.

I agree we have not seen enough

13 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That is the case with Steel-pushed that are targeted but not in the case of Reverse Lashings, he doesnt need to even be aware of the objects, it's more of a field effect.  

Here's the differences as I see them:  Kell can (theoretically) choose to target just the steel piece of the spike if he's good enough, while Kal cannot selectively target but can affect regardless of his own awareness, so both have equal chance of effecting the Steel portion of the spike.  However, WOB says that Aluminum disrupts things in a sort of field effect, so it's possible that the proximity and/or contact with the aluminum will be enough to disrupt both effects.  

That one at least is is easy and is a Firm "No" just like all the other surges, and apologize if I gave the impression that I was arguing for that.  The question I was trying to raise was whether a Steel-push and a Reverse Lashing would be able to push on the Steel portion of the combo spike you desribed, steel that close to and touching Aluminum, or if the aluminum field effect would stop them.  But I think the answer would apply equally to both, so I dont think it would be represent a tactical advantage to either.  

In my opinion, the real deciding factor between those two abilities (if not those two characters overall) is the fact that the Reverse Lashing works on all non-invested materials other than Aluminum, while Allomancy is just as ineffective against aluminum but also every other non-metal option.  Wood spears, stone or bone arrowheads, ceramic bullets, etc would all blow right past an allomancers defenses.  

So first sorry I misrepresented you.

Second, I personally do not believe that prevents what I stated. For myself emotional allomancy is still targeting the person. Aluminum acts as the field preventing that. The reverse lashing to me targets the (in this case lets say ground). If there was aluminum in, or around the ground, then for myself yes it would negate the surge. But the ground itself in this case is not. The reverse lashing is sourced at the ground, creating a gravity well. So for myself, I believe it would still affect the spike. But as my original intention was to elaborate on what I thought you were saying, and that is not in fact the case, then this is moot. 

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I actually personally agree with your first supposition.  I just wanted to give the other side of the argument some merit.

Cool. To clarify it was never my intention or goal to say the other argument is without merit. 

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3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So first sorry I misrepresented you.

No worries.  

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Second, I personally do not believe that prevents what I stated. For myself emotional allomancy is still targeting the person. Aluminum acts as the field preventing that. The reverse lashing to me targets the (in this case lets say ground). If there was aluminum in, or around the ground, then for myself yes it would negate the surge. But the ground itself in this case is not. The reverse lashing is sourced at the ground, creating a gravity well. So for myself, I believe it would still affect the spike. But as my original intention was to elaborate on what I thought you were saying, and that is not in fact the case, then this is moot. 

Oh, I get what you are saying now; sorry, cutting back on caffeine has be slow today.  You are saying that the Reverse Lashing is Investing in the target object (say Kal's Shield) and all that is touching the spike/arrows is a natural physical effect as a gravity well, absent investiture.  I like and could certainly see it working that way, though with Realmics as they are it could always play out as a Spiritual Realm, Connection sort of thing too, I guess.   I'll admit Im a little hesitant to call it a gravity well, just because it seem to pull arrows in flight that had quite a bit of force/momentum in them, but I dont recall it pulling dirt or nearby dust clouds or any other lightweight things nearby.  Which could just be that he didnt spend the time describing it for doylistic reasons (scene pacing an whatnot), but it might be that it is somehow more selective.  Though if it plays out that way, @Kingsdaughter613's suggestion that the Windrunner's Perception alters the Reverse Lashing targeting would become a lot more plausible.  

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