[OB] Kelsier vs Kaladin

[galendo]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

That's probably a good guess for how long he was in the air, as Roshar doesn't have an axial tilt, and it has 20 hour days. But why do you think a pouch would last him that long? They loaded him up with infused gems before he left. He had far more available then he normally would. 

Every lashing depletes that faster. I'm guessing off a single pouch, airborne, while using other lashings to try and keep things up, your looking at a good half hour. At most. 

Right, but even still, five hours still seems at the low limit for a single lashing.  First, "half a day" can vary widely.  Probably six or seven hours if we're counting a day as "dawn to dusk", but ten hours if we're talking literally half a day, from the start of one day until the start of the next.  So five seems pretty conservative here -- it might be as much as ten or twelve.

The next question is, how many times did Kaladin lash himself?  Assuming that the answer's at least two, and assuming that a half-lashing takes half as much Stormlight as a full lashing (we don't really know this, but it seems reasonable), then he could hang in the air at least four times longer than his flight to Hearthstone, and given Kaladin's tendency to over-compensate, it could easily be six, eight, or ten times as long, depending on how many times he lashed himself toward Hearthstone.

So bare minimum, we're talking twenty hours in the air on the amount of Stormlight he had.  Cut it in half, maybe, to account for the fact that he started the trip full of Stormlight, then maybe half again to account for the fact that he had more gemstones than he'd usually carry (though I seem to recall him taking about as much on his trip to Kholinar; I suspect that how much Kaladin would normally carry in his pouch has shifted permanently upward), and you're still back at five hours.  Again, that seems like a pretty conservative estimate to me.

I don't know what you mean by "while using other lashings to try and keep things up", but no matter how you look at it, it's way, way more than half an hour.

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm gonna be blunt and say "light as a baseball" seems patently ridiculous. At best, I'd say the Shard-Weapon in question would weigh about the same as the unaided human equivalent. Swords/Axes/Spears/etc.. are built around the balance/weight ratio for the swing. Mess with that and you'd get a good bit of under/overswing since it's off-balance compared to what you're used to. Kaladin didn't have any of that with his new Shardspear, or else Szeth would've cut him to ribbons.

So I feel that Shardweaponry is roughly the same weight as a normal weapon. Under this idea, the reason Shardblades are "lighter than they should be," which is to say, lighter than a 6 foot normal sword would be, is because they are maintaining the weight of a standard sword. (Which would mean that Shardblades are actually "bigger than they should be," rather than "lighter.")

So baseball-weight does seem kind of extreme, but we don't really know.  We don't know how much a Shardblade weighs, and we don't know whether their weight is constant when they change size (altering their density) or whether their density is constant (altering their weight).  It seems weird to think of a knife-sized Blade that weighs as much as a full sword, but maybe that's how it works.  I've just always assumed that a live Blade was a much lighter version of whatever it was emulating.

Quote

Can a Windrunner orient themselves when lashed in midair, or are they always gonna be standing "upwards," relative to the ground?

I've always assumed they could orient themselves.  It's how Syl behaves when she's in human shape (as if she were lashing herself in odd directions), with Kaladin at one point noting that, although she stood sideways, her dress hung as if gravity were pulling to the side, not down.  I think it also explains how Kaladin can maneuver just with his body, without additionally lashing himself, as he does on the flight to Kholinar (IIRC, though it might have been elsewhere) and in the battle against the Fused when he's lashed sideways.

Quote

1. Rereading the WoB, the questioner asks if the Spren has to be close for the Radiant to use their abilities. If that's what Brandon directly said yes to, then your plan might dispell Kaladin's lashings and knock him out of the sky. Or it would prevent Syl from getting that far away (which I'm not sure about, see 2) but if it does, see 3.

3. As mentioned in 1, if she leaves the area, Kal wouldn't be able to use his powers, which could kill him. I feel that the system should be smarter than that, so I'll presume that it would forcibly despawn her from Blade-form so she doesn't leave the area.

Well, if you're right, then this strategy clearly doesn't work.  But 200 feet doesn't sound all that far.  During highstorms Syl would routinely disappear for a while and go play with her windspren buddies on the edge of the storm, only returning when the storm was passed.  I doubt she'd have left Kaladin alone for so long if it meant leaving him totally helpless.  I don't know how wide a highstorm is, but I'm guessing it's measured in miles, not in hundreds of feet.

Quote

4. I'd have to reread, but I highly doubt she got that far away from him. I'm not sure she exceeded(or even reached) 100 feet away from him at any given point.

Well, I dunno, but there's at least one chasmfiend's length between them, right?  The plan was for Kaladin to lead the chasmfiend away so Shallan can retrieve her satchel, so there's got to be more than one chasmfiend's length between them, I'd think.  Probably more.  I don't think the length of a chasmfiend is described exactly, but eyeballing off of the height of the man in Shallan's sketch in Words of Radiance, they've got to be upwards of a hundred feet long.  So I'd say there's at least a hundred feet between Kaladin and Shallan, probably more like 150-200.  Not conclusive, but highly suggestive.

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, galendo said:

I don't know what you mean by "while using other lashings to try and keep things up", but no matter how you look at it, it's way, way more than half an hour.

So he's never moving? Never lashing anything else? Just a sitting target for Kel to shoot at and leech Stormlight off of? Steel can launch them a good 50 to 100 feet into the air, so why would 200 feet make a projectile that they continually push not a threat? 

I think overall your being remarkably conservative on the amount of stormlight that Kal uses. 

[galendo]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

So he's never moving? Never lashing anything else? Just a sitting target for Kel to shoot at and leech Stormlight off of? Steel can launch them a good 50 to 100 feet into the air, so why would 200 feet make a projectile that they continually push not a threat? 

I think overall your being remarkably conservative on the amount of stormlight that Kal uses. 

That's kind of my point.  The Windrunner wouldn't have to do anything, because he's at the top of the gravity well.  A coin fired from the ground at 70 mph wouldn't even reach him (assuming Earth gravity).  A coin fired at twice that speed might or might not, depending on air resistance, but it certainly wouldn't be going very fast or do much damage in the unlikely event that it did hit.  Even if the coins could reach him (not guaranteed but not entirely impossible either), they'd have used up most of their velocity fighting gravity.

As for the mistborn throwing himself in the air and then firing, that seems like it wouldn't do much good.  If he can get up to 100 feet, and if he can fire at 140 mph, then this would be a valid tactic (the coin would hit in a bit more than half a second at upwards of 100 mph).  It actually still works pretty good, even if he can only get up 50 feet, provided he can still fire at 140 mph.  At 70 mph, though, it's pretty much hopeless even if he can get himself 100 feet in the air first -- the coin still doesn't hit (in fact, it falls about 18 feet short).

If the mistborn can get himself 50 feet up, a 100 mph shot either doesn't hit or just barely hits, depending on air resistance.  If he can get himself 100 feet up, a 100 mph shot would hit in slightly less than a second at around 70 mph without air resistance, probably more like 50-60 mph with, though I don't actually have a formula to model air resistance, especially considering the coin's probably rotating in the air, so I'm just guessing here.  I'm guessing that's enough to sting pretty good, but probably not cause serious damage unless it hits an eye or something.  It's not like coins weigh a whole lot.  (A silver half-dollar weighs less than a tenth as much as a baseball.  A 60 mph baseball will cause bruises but probably not a broken bone.  So getting hit by a half-dollar coin at that speed probably smarts but doesn't bruise.)

So I guess the question is, at what speed can a mistborn fire coins?  I remember Kelsier killing a room of hazekillers, but I think that was with an iron bar, not a coin.  I leave the more cosmere-savvy readers to answer this question.  And a related question: how high can a mistborn get off the ground with a steelpush?  I seem to remember it being like 40-50 feet, in which case the mistborn had better be able to shoot at well upwards of 100 mph, but it's been quite a while since I read Mistborn.

I also admit I kind of forgot about the leeching ability (I remember the abilities of the first trilogy pretty well but not those of the second trilogy).  If that can be used at a range of 100-150 feet, then the strategy might work.  I kind of remember it being touch-based or at least short-range, though.  Again, I defer to readers who probably remember this series better than I do.

[Varenus]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

As to the bendalloy atium combo... That's not going to work as well as people are proposing. Time is altered for the person inside the bubble, and atium only sees a couple of seconds in the future. For someone inside a bendalloy bubble, with the outside world slowed to near immobility, the atium shadows of someone burning inside would reduce what they see of those outside to uselessness.

Do we know this for certain? If I have missed something then my apologies, but the only thing I found on the subject was this WoB(spolier for length):

Spoiler

Questioner

What happens if you burn atium at the same time as cadmium or bendalloy?

Brandon Sanderson

That would be really cool to see. *laughter* Here you go, you can have a RAFO card.

I imagine that it would depend on whether or not Atium is an external or internal metal, right? If it's internal then it would probably be using the allomancer's reference frame. If it's external then it could be using the target's reference frame. This WoB seems to suggest that it is external, but I'm not a master at WoB hunting and make of it what you will(spoiler for length):

Spoiler

Vin's attempt at killing the Lord Ruler was, I thought, rather clever. I made a point of making her be able to touch her past self when she was burning gold. There are a couple of reasons why this didn't work. First of all, the images are just that–images. When Vin touched the face of her past self, it was all part of the illusion that gold produced. None of it was real. So, even if she HAD been able to touch the image of the Lord Ruler's past self, she wouldn't have been able to hurt the Lord Ruler himself by killing it.

The other reason is important as well. The thing is, the Eleventh Metal isn't actually an alloy of gold, but an alloy of atium. If you understand Allomantic theory, you'll understand why this has to be. Each quartet of metals is made up of two base metals and two alloys. The base metals are the Pulling metals, like iron and zinc. They are also made up of two internal metals and two external metals. Two change things about you, two change things about other people.

The Eleventh Metal, like atium, changes something about someone else. Both have to be external metals–that's the way the pairing works. Gold (and its compliment) change things about the Allomancer.

So, atium shows the future of someone else, malatium shows the past of someone else. Gold shows the past of yourself, and electrum (gold's compliment) shows your own future. (We'll talk about that in a different book.)

So, anyway, the Eleventh Metal (malatium) matches with atium–both of which create images from other people. And, just like atium shadows are incorporeal, so are malatium shadows. That's why Vin couldn't touch the one she saw of the Lord Ruler.

If this has already been discussed then never mind.

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

with the outside world slowed to near immobility

Alternatively: Couldn't they just vary the strength in which they are burning their Bendalloy to make the outside world just barely slower? The most extreme case we saw(the explosion scene) was Wayne flaring his Bendalloy to the absolute max, but allomancers can also decrease the strength of their metals by burning them more lightly. Breeze, Zane, and Spook all demonstrated this with their respective metals, why not Bendalloy as well? Also, this would make your Bendalloy last longer because you wouldn't need to be burning it at full strength.

---

@galendo If we are giving Kaladin ~30 minutes of stormlight, then lets say that Kelsier has ~15 minutes of basic metals(not 15 total, 15 each) plus 5 minutes of Atium. 5 minutes is only like 2 and a half beads (approximately), not unreasonable. Using some Bendalloy, Kel wouldn't need to be burning his Atium the entire time(assuming the interaction works the way I think it does). Only for a few seconds to understand the trajectory of the blade at a time(lets say ~2 seconds per dodge). Lets say that Kel burns twice as much Bendalloy each time he doges(~4-5 seconds per dodge), a few seconds before he starts burning Atium and a few seconds to move away from the blade. That's 150 doges with only 5 minuets of Atium and Bendalloy to spare(2 and a half minutes to spare). Using your estimation of a throw every ten seconds(180 throws in 30 minutes, likely Kal could throw faster), Kel only needs to dodge 30 more throws. Steel and Iron or Electrum and pewter would likely be enough to survive 5 minutes with no Atium. And that's not mentioning his spare Bendalloy. He would have 10 minutes of his base metals(at worst), with the exception of Bendalloy of course, to fight what is essentially a glorified shardbearer with no healing, speed, or extra strength. Kel can stagger the usage of his metals, while Kal cannot do the same with his abilities.

6 hours ago, galendo said:

Remember that the Blade is only "in the air" for about one and a half seconds.

Sure, but 1.5 seconds doesn't mean much to the guy who can see the future and control time. Even if he messes up a few times, he has still got 2.5 minutes of Bendalloy as a buffer.

Also, did you take into account Syl's terminal velocity before coming up with this figure(You must be using an approximation if you did, because we haven't established what Syl's mass or surface area is)? Or did you use a kinematic equation? If you assumed that Syl would just be accelerating the entire time, then Kel would probably have slightly longer to react than predicted. I can't find what the average terminal velocity of an irl sword/spear is, but the terminal velocity of a baseball is ~ 74 miles per hour, the terminal velocity of a human skydiver is ~134-200(depending on how they are falling) mph, a bullet(30 caliber) ~200 mph, and a bowling ball ~350 mph. So a spear/sword is probably around 120-170 mph? Syl probably isn't moving at 200 mph by the time she lands, though it depends on how Kal throws his weapon. It's not that big of a difference, but it's something. Even if its just 0.5 seconds longer, 2 seconds is plenty of time to set up a speed bubble.

6 hours ago, galendo said:

So five hours is a conservative estimate for how long Kaladin can hang in the air

Kal is going to need a storming in-flight meal if he is up there for 5 hours!

[FanofAges]

Here is an interesting thought. 

Spoiler

If kelsier is a cognitive shadow,  then somehow uses hulgemery(I forgot how to spell it) with and fruchemy AND alomancy,  would anybody be able to kill him?  He's practically his own splinter at this point. _-_-_-Also would it be possible for his cognitive shadow to use hulgemery to reconstruct his physical body?  Would harmony be aloud to help him or would he even know? 

Crazy thought I just had and please tell me if I'm wrong.  

Spoiler

If jasna is as strong mindad as you all say,  could she possibly change kelsiers medals so he couldn't use them?  If she can't alter him directly,  could she target his alomancy or fruchamy?  

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by FanofAges
I thought of something cool I think.

[Calderis]

51 minutes ago, galendo said:

That's kind of my point.  The Windrunner wouldn't have to do anything, because he's at the top of the gravity well.  A coin fired from the ground at 70 mph wouldn't even reach him (assuming Earth gravity).  A coin fired at twice that speed might or might not, depending on air resistance, but it certainly wouldn't be going very fast or do much damage in the unlikely event that it did hit.  Even if the coins could reach him (not guaranteed but not entirely impossible either), they'd have used up most of their velocity fighting gravity.

Ah, I see the issue. Your figuring it leaves the hand of the allomancer and starts deceleration. It doesn't. The push force is continually applied and the coin would be accelerating until it had reached a distance beyond which the allomancer can push or it's speed and the air resistance are greater than the force being applied. It will likely be traveling much faster, and won't begin suffering lose of energy until much later than you're thinking. I don't think Kaladin would be safe at all. Coinshots are deadly for a reason. 

53 minutes ago, Varenus said:

Do we know this for certain?

I guess not, but I'm going off of this. 

Quote

BlackYeti [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

If a gemstone infused with Stormlight were left inside a bendalloy or cadmium bubble, would the gemstone appear to go dun faster or slower respectively to the outside observer?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Yes it would. Time is actually changing, the same thing would be observed if it were brought near to a singularity.

source

Time is actually changed for the person in the bubble. 

 

[The One Who Connects]

12 hours ago, galendo said:

It seems weird to think of a knife-sized Blade that weighs as much as a full sword, but maybe that's how it works.

I'd think a knife sized blade would be considered as a "knife," rather than a sword. And as such, it would probably have a similar weight to a knife, or at worst a machete(assuming they have something like that). Maybe there's something to do with cognitive perception(with a live blade, at least). The weight balance for a rapier is different than a broadsword, so if you have a Shard-Rapier, it would be balanced/weighted like a rapier, while a Shard-Broadsword of similar length would be heavier, like a proper broadsword.

13 hours ago, galendo said:

I've always assumed they could orient themselves.

I thought so too, but it's best to be sure rather than just assume, so I figured I'd ask.

13 hours ago, galendo said:

Well, I dunno, but there's at least one chasmfiend's length between them, right? The plan was for Kaladin to lead the chasmfiend away so Shallan can retrieve her satchel, so there's got to be more than one chasmfiend's length between them, I'd think. Probably more.

I don't think the length of a chasmfiend is described exactly, but eyeballing off of the height of the man in Shallan's sketch in Words of Radiance, they've got to be upwards of a hundred feet long. So I'd say there's at least a hundred feet between Kaladin and Shallan, probably more like 150-200. Not conclusive, but highly suggestive.

That was part of why I said I'd have to reread. I knew Kaladin was always by the head, but I wasn't certain if Shallan was directly behind the tail, or just near the other end/off to the side. Or if the Chasmfiend was straightened out or turning around side passages(which I thought I remembered) as Kaladin distracted/avoided it, since that'd change the distance too.

Either way, your estimation skills aren't half bad(It's a link b/c image size).

[galendo]

22 hours ago, Varenus said:

Sure, but 1.5 seconds doesn't mean much to the guy who can see the future and control time. Even if he messes up a few times, he has still got 2.5 minutes of Bendalloy as a buffer.

I guess that's a good point.  It doesn't help if he's too late and the Blade's already inside the bubble, but if he's too early, he could just set up another bubble a second or so after the first collapses.  Still seems like he's going to burn through his metals a lot faster than the other guy -- in order to effectively estimate the trajectory and dodge, he'd probably need to burn at least five seconds of time per bubble, which would add up pretty fast if he has to burn multiple bubbles per toss.  It's made worse by the fact that the Windrunner doesn't have to let the Blade hit the ground.  If he sees that his target is suddenly 30 feet away from where he threw, he could summon the Blade back immediately and save a few seconds on the turnaround.

Quote

Also, did you take into account Syl's terminal velocity before coming up with this figure

Not explicitly.  IIRC, the calculations were done disregarding air resistance but rounding "down" from what they would be in a vacuum.  Provided her terminal velocity is greater than the initial velocity of 70 mph (which seems very reasonable, for something thin and bladed like a sword or spear -- not much surface area there), then she hits in less than two seconds no matter what.  So it's something like...I think it was a bit less than 1.4 seconds in a vacuum and a bit less than 2 seconds in a super-duper thick atmosphere.  So 1.5 seemed reasonable.  But maybe a bit more.  Certainly less than 2 seconds, though.

Quote

Kal is going to need a storming in-flight meal if he is up there for 5 hours!

Heh, maybe so.  Shallan was able to keep up first her Veil disguise and then her illusory boulder for several hours when she met with the Ghostbloods, on probably not that much Stormlight.  I think a little bit of Stormlight goes a long way, if you're just doing one thing.

22 hours ago, Calderis said:

Ah, I see the issue. Your figuring it leaves the hand of the allomancer and starts deceleration. It doesn't. The push force is continually applied and the coin would be accelerating until it had reached a distance beyond which the allomancer can push or it's speed and the air resistance are greater than the force being applied. It will likely be traveling much faster, and won't begin suffering lose of energy until much later than you're thinking. I don't think Kaladin would be safe at all. Coinshots are deadly for a reason.

You know, I think you might right about the pushing (constant application of force versus initial starting velocity), from the way the powers are named (steelpush) and they way they're described.  There's a couple of problems with this interpretation, though.  First, if this were so, then Coinshots would actually be far more destructive from a distance, since they'd have more distance to apply force to their coins, and I seem to recall that not being the case.

More importantly, the math just doesn't work out.  (At least, it doesn't if I've remembered my physics well enough.  Someone should probably double-check me on this.)  Assuming that an 80-kg mistborn (probably about Kelsier's weight) can "hover" himself at a height of 30 meters (around 100 feet):

Spoiler

F = ma

F = 80 * 10           (assuming 10 m/s^2 for convenience)

F = 800 N

So Kelsier must be pushing, at a distance of 30 meters, with 800 N of force.  How much work did he apply, over those 30 meters?

dW = F(h)dh

dW > 800dh            (we must have F(h) >= 800 everywhere, because he applies 800 N at the farthest point, and clearly must have been applying more to get up that far)

W > 800h

W > 800 * 30 = 24,000 J

Assuming a horizontal shot, most if not all of this force/work is presumably transformed into kinetic energy over the same 30 meters.  If the coin weighs 1 oz (28 g), then neglecting air resistance the coin must be traveling at least at a speed of

KE = (1/2)mv^2

24,000 = (1/2)(.028)v^2

1,714,285 = v^2

1,309 m/s = v

In English units, this is slightly less than 3,000 mph.

Now air resistance would slow this down some, but I'm pretty certain I don't remember coins screaming along at mach four and impacting with the force of a dozen cannonballs.

There's a couple ways we could still make this work.  First, it might be that a mistborn applies a constant velocity, rather than a constant force.  Seems like this would cause the mistborn to black out whenever he pushed or pulled himself at speed, but who knows?  I just know I don't feel like going through the effort to analyze this method, when I'm pretty certain it won't work out any better than the above.  Second, it might be that the energy goes to something other than kinetic energy.  A very small change in mass would eat up that extra energy real quick.  Unfortunately, if this is the case, there's no real way to figure out how fast a coin is going at any particular height.  It's clearly not going mach four after 100 feet, but who knows how fast it's really going?  Maybe it's going fast enough to hit the Windrunner, maybe it's not.  I just don't see any way to tell.

...

Okay, there might be one way to tell, sort of.  What's the most amount of damage a coin ever did in Mistborn?  Any coin, ever, off of a regular steelpush?  We could then approximate backwards from that to an effective "muzzle velocity", at which point my previous numbers become relevant, 100 mph seeming like the magic number as far as muzzle velocity is concerned.  If the mistborn can fire at above a 100 mph equivalent, he can potentially hit the Windrunner.  If not, he's toast.

[Calderis]

@galendo they can push hard enough to hover at that height above a single coin if balanced correctly. They'd be pushing the coin away from themselves with that same force. And would still be pushing at a further distance as the coin weighs significantly less. The further the range the less force being applied.

I don't know the physics math well enough to try and put that into a quantitative amount of force, but I don't see how it could function any other way and still have a coinshot/Mistborn able to hold a metal object pinned against an object without it requiring touch. It's not an initial launch, it's a continual application of force. 

[Varenus]

1 hour ago, galendo said:

Not explicitly.  IIRC, the calculations were done disregarding air resistance but rounding "down" from what they would be in a vacuum.  Provided her terminal velocity is greater than the initial velocity of 70 mph (which seems very reasonable, for something thin and bladed like a sword or spear -- not much surface area there), then she hits in less than two seconds no matter what.  So it's something like...I think it was a bit less than 1.4 seconds in a vacuum and a bit less than 2 seconds in a super-duper thick atmosphere.  So 1.5 seemed reasonable.  But maybe a bit more.  Certainly less than 2 seconds, though.

Never mind then, that seems very solid. I'm kind of convinced that your method would work(assuming coins can't reach that height), but it just seems a little too unreliable. Under slightly different circumstances(No Atium, No Bendalloy) I would say that Kal would likely win, but Kel just has so many ways to mitigate the chances of actually getting hit when he has his metals. 

1 hour ago, galendo said:

First, if this were so, then Coinshots would actually be far more destructive from a distance, since they'd have more distance to apply force to their coins, and I seem to recall that not being the case.

Pretty sure the coins accelerate quite drastically while within the allomancer's range. I seem to remember that being said when Vin put some coins on Elend's chest to safely push him away(though it might have been Kelsier and someone else) without pushing the coins through his chest and accidentally killing him. The Coppermind says that:

Quote

they gain quite a bit of speed over time.

Though I imagine that shooting them directly upward would diminish their speed.

1 hour ago, galendo said:

What's the most amount of damage a coin ever did in Mistborn?

Without any sort of enhancement(without duralumin or mist) a coin passes through a guard's mouth and straight out the back of their head in Well of Ascenstion chapter 43 page 530 of the paperback(when Vin and Zane go and storm Cett's keep). If "Back of the head" means skull, that coin was probably moving pretty fast.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Varenus

[galendo]

19 hours ago, Varenus said:

Though I imagine that shooting them directly upward would diminish their speed.

Perhaps not as much as you think, actually.  Gravitational acceleration is certainly the dominating force over any reasonably long time frame, but if the coins aren't in the air for very long, gravity doesn't have much time to act.  If a mistborn could do 140 mph horizontal, shifting to vertical doesn't slow the coin down all that much over 200 feet.

I actually ran the numbers according Calderis' assertion (which I believe) that the coins are being constantly pushed.  The problem is that, assuming that an 80 kg mistborn can push with a constant 800 N of force for however long it takes a 1 oz coin to travel 30 meters (neglecting air resistance, it turns out to be about a sixth of a second), you still end up with coins flying around at supersonic speeds.  Only mach 1.2, rather than the mach 4.4 calculated above, but still patently unreasonable.

Quote

Without any sort of enhancement(without duralumin or mist) a coin passes through a guard's mouth and straight out the back of their head in Well of Ascenstion chapter 43 page 530 of the paperback(when Vin and Zane go and storm Cett's keep). If "Back of the head" means skull, that coin was probably moving pretty fast.

Can I say that I'm impressed by your ability to quickly and accurately source such a bizarre request?  Because I am.

That being said, I'm afraid it doesn't help much.  Did the coin shatter the cranium?  Did it break through the spine?  Did it miss the bone entirely and tear through the flesh?  The fact that it broke a tooth in passing is somewhat telling, since that's got to take at least some energy before it makes its exit.  But without a more detailed description of what's going on, it's hard to say for sure.

Plus, there seems to be a dearth of research about the amount of energy required to tear a hole through the back of someone's head.  It's almost like no one's ever researched it.  Weird.

[Calderis]

@galendo since this seems to be an area of interest to you, and because frankly I'm not well versed enough on the mathematics required to delve into the physics side of things, have a look at this wonderful non-ob spoiler/purely Mistborn thread by @Pagerunnerthat digs deep into the topic of coinshots.

 

[galendo]

@Calderis: Thanks for the link!  At least I know not to expend more energy trying to work out the physics of something that apparently doesn't have solid physics behind it.

It's kind of funny, really.  Mistborn was written with such logic and detail that I just assumed that there was solid physics behind the scenes.  It shows, I suppose, the power of a good cognitive illusion.  Props to Brandon, and props to Calderis, Pagerunner, and company for saving me from too much frustrated physics!

[Feruchemical Skybreaker]

So back to the topic of Kaladin vs. Kelsier.

I think that all Kaladin needs to do to kill Kelsier is Reverse lash Syl (while she is a shardblade) and then lash her so that she floats in between him and Kelsier. Then Kaladin would lash himself backwards, so as to not be pulled towards Syl. Kelsier on the other hand is pulled toward the Shardblade (Syl) and is killed. 

No amount of Atium could save him. Even if he knows that it's going to happen he can't prevent it. He knows that he is about to be pulled toward an insta-kill sword but he can't prevent it. 

[Tglassy]

Um...I'm pretty sure that's not how reverse lashings work. They're the weakest of lashings, at this point, and really only work with light things that are already in the air.  This is because you are still affected by Earth's gravity when a Reverse Lashing is around, so you wouldn't be "pulled towards Syl" unless you were in space.

 

Also, there's nothing keeping Kelsior from just grabbing Syl at that point, or slapping her to the side and grabbing the hilt.  Also, I don't know if we should give Kelsior Duralumin or not, but a Duralumin Steelpush should be able to push a Shardblade.  

 

Also, I don't know if you CAN put stormlight into a Shardblade, especially a living one.  It's already invested.  You can't Lash dead plate, so I don't see why a Living Shardblade would be different.

[NameIess]

All of this conversation is useless, as Brandon Sanderson literally said this:

Quote

Questioner

Kelsier vs. Kaladin, who wins?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier is meaner. Kelsier is sneakier. Raw power - I'm not sure, but I'm gonna go with Kelsier. If its on a battlefield, Kelsier doesn't win. If its off the battlefield, Kelsier wins. Kaladin is a soldier. He can fight a war and fight with a team and he can win a battle. Kelsier can sneak into someones house and stab them.

This is the definitive answer.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Llstml

[Zapata]

2 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Um...I'm pretty sure that's not how reverse lashings work. They're the weakest of lashings, at this point, and really only work with light things that are already in the air.  This is because you are still affected by Earth's gravity when a Reverse Lashing is around, so you wouldn't be "pulled towards Syl" unless you were in space.

Also, I don't know if you CAN put stormlight into a Shardblade, especially a living one.  It's already invested.  You can't Lash dead plate, so I don't see why a Living Shardblade would be different.

Also, you can only sustain a Reverse Lashing while touching the object. So Kaladin would have to be holding the blade. However, a Shardblade should be able to be Lashed by its owner. Radiants in the past could Lash their own plate. 

[Karger]

Shoudn't this be in cosmere discussion?

[Zapata]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Shoudn't this be in cosmere discussion?

I mean, probably, but not only has it been Necro'd, but it has presumably been in SA since 2017, so no one's questioned it before. So I don't know.

[Feruchemical Skybreaker]

Thanks
That got me thinking and I was wondering if you could stack reverse lashings like you can other lashings

 

[Frustration]

On 12/12/2017 at 3:57 PM, RShara said:

I think that would be very difficult.  The person sees themselves as one being.  They'd have to see themselves as two separate, identical beings at the moment that they're split, strongly enough to change their spiritweb.  Seems unlikely.

Hoid could probably do it.

[RShara]

3 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Hoid could probably do it.

Maybe not in 2017

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, RShara said:

Maybe not in 2017

Could you please explain this I am so confused on what you mean.

[Frustration]

Kaladin can take some serious hits, and has shown no problem handling people with superior firepower to him, however Keliser can't even get close to Kaladin, one nick on his spine, and he's dead, one shot, game-over, no re-try.

[Feruchemical Skybreaker]

1 minute ago, Booknerd said:

Kaladin can take some serious hits, and has shown no problem handling people with superior firepower to him, however Keliser can't even get close to Kaladin, one nick on his spine, and he's dead, one shot, game-over, no re-try.

I definitely agree