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[OB] Kelsier vs Kaladin


FanofAges

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I'll just repeat myself.  A Mistborn with atium is really hard to defeat.

Atium burns fast, but we haven't put a limit to how much atium or stormlight is available.

Also, remember, Mistborn can do more than just push and pull on objects.  Riot or Soothe emotions, see the person's potential other self (malatium), create speed bubbles or slow bubbles, increase their senses and strength.  And Duralumin can do help do crazy things.

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Pre-death Kel and Current Kal (ie: No Shardplate) would be a hard fight, but I think Kal would be able to wear down Kel's Atium reserves. Syl can become a literally indestructible shield, so anything Kelsier shoots at Kal would be nullified by Sylshield. Kal has also literally pushed away a Highstorm with his Adhesion, so I think he could also deal with Coins that way. 

 

Interesting thought: I think Jasnah could beat literally anyone, given Stormlight. Even if she couldn't Soulcast someone who was Invested, she could Soulcast the air around them into a block of Aluminum or Stone.

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17 hours ago, RShara said:

I think that would be very difficult.  The person sees themselves as one being.  They'd have to see themselves as two separate, identical beings at the moment that they're split, strongly enough to change their spiritweb.  Seems unlikely.

And this is how Veil and Radiant become their own beings.

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How hard do you think it would be for kelsier to kill kaladin, if/when kaladin gets his shardplate? With all the potential weapons kelsier could use (meta,l glass knives, guns etc.) Would it be possible to destroy shardplate withought a shardblade? Granted he somehow keept his distance from kaladin and just battered him with things. 

Edited by FanofAges
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Depends on the environment but Kelsier has an advantage due to being physiologically adapted to a higher level of gravity. Kaladin on Scadrial would have breathing issues (both from gravity and the air's lower oxygen) and everything would be 33% harder for him. Kelsier on Roshar would have a couple of weeks in which things are lighter for him before muscular atrophy and bone density decreases. He'd also probably be a bit light headed due to the excess oxygen...

Edited by Knight Oblivion
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10 hours ago, FanofAges said:

How hard do you think it would be for kelsier to kill kaladin, if/when kaladin gets his shardplate? With all the potential weapons kelsier could use (meta,l glass knives, guns etc.) Would it be possible to destroy shardplate withought a shardblade? Granted he somehow keept his distance from kaladin and just battered him with things. 

I think this is hard to say, we haven't gotten a good look at living shardplate yet. does it crack and break the same way normal plate does? but assuming it is the same as normal plate, I imagine a Koloss sword would be able to deal with the plate.

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Quote

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Who do you think would win, an atium misting, or Kaladin with Syl?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The atium misting, as long as they have enough atium, is probably got an advantage, but Kaladin can fly. So, I would bet on Kaladin, meaning he flies up high, waits 'til they run out of atium, then gets them.

 

Interesting little tidbit. So, Kaladin could just wait Kelsier out

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Unless he runs out of stormlight first. Sure he will probably have access to more than enough but its still worth considering.

If they were familiar with his powers they could just stop burning atium until he ran out of light and only turn it on when he came back down.

Edit: The question also supposes Kaladin is fighting an atium misting. Kelsier has access to ranged attacks and can push/pull for limited flight so Kal just flying and waiting may be less effective.

Edited by Ookla the Fashionably Late
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  • 1 month later...

Well I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to compare the two yet. Kelsier has more experience and pretty much at the peak of his power. Kaladin still has a way to go but getting there he has two more oaths. Each oath a radiant says gives them more power the 4th oath will give them Shardplate. It will also go three ways or some combination of them more oaths directly impact how much stormlight they can draw, they will be able to metabolize stormlight more efficiently so they can a lot less for the same results and maybe even increased abilities strength etc, or the Shardplate gives them a endless supply of stormlight. The fifth oath increases their lashing power and range so Kaladin won’t have to physically touch an object to do a reverse lashing might be able to stick enemies to the floor without contact IMO

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On 12/13/2017 at 11:00 PM, FanofAges said:

How hard do you think it would be for kelsier to kill kaladin, if/when kaladin gets his shardplate? With all the potential weapons kelsier could use (meta,l glass knives, guns etc.) Would it be possible to destroy shardplate withought a shardblade? Granted he somehow keept his distance from kaladin and just battered him with things. 

Plate Still breaks when put under enough force. And post OT Kelsier could use feruchemical iron with allomantic steel, iron, and pewter to brace for the recoil of just about anything. That’s not even accounting for the fact that full compounders are functionally demigods so long as they have the right metalminds.

Edited by Crazy1993
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Somehow missed this thread earlier, and I'm going to say Kel. 

And though it seems kind of unnecessary at this point... Mistborn spoilers. 

Spoiler

People here are severly underestimating atium. It's strong for a reason, it doesn't just let you see a couple of seconds into the future. It enhances your mind to automatically process that information and use it properly. It's obviously going to work better in the hands of a fighter, but Yomen wasn't a warrior and he still dodged everything that came at him while burning. 

Even with plate, Kel would take down Kal if he had atium. All it takes is a dodge and a hand with a coin up to the eyeslit and push into the brain. There's no healing that out, and the moment Kal runs out if Stormlight it's over. 

Brandon's hypothetical about flying and waiting out the opponents atium relies on the atium burner being stupid. They can just stop burning and wait for them to have to come down from lack of stormlight. 

And I'm talking TFE Kel. Any additional powers he's gained since would only add to the imbalance, although if he can't get atium in the modern era it will be more of a toss-up. 

All of its moot anyway, because if Kelsier wants someone dead, and he questions if they could beat him, he's just going to sneak in and kill them in their sleep. 

 

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There's a few ways to look at this. I think the cheating answer is Kaladin dies first but inflicts enough damage on Kelsier that he also dies when his pewter runs out. 

The Syl shield seems to be under represented here. She seems to innately understand what Kaladin wants and needs. She blocks almost all projectiles for him, but he would get brained by something getting pulled behind him.

Now, Kelsier has also already killed the unkillable. I gotta go with him. I think he avoids Kaladin well enough, nickels and dimes him out of Stormlight then goes for a kill to end it.

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Interesting concept. How would steel pushes/iron pulls work against lashings? Because a lashing is literally manipulating gravity. I'm sure that it would work but the way the forces work would confuse the heck out of a Mistborn. Also with ranged attacks...

Kaladin can turn Syl into anything A.K.A. throwing knife or bow or ranged things, also LASHINGS

Kelsier shoots crap at Kal and he can shoot it back, and if Kelsier pushes back HE WILL LOSE. Lashings don't rely on weight, just shove a bunch of lashings on something being pushed and it would cause anyone fighting him to SLAM into the ground.

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As much as I like both characters, I think the WoB about Vin vs. Kal says it all. On a battlefield Kal would beat Kel hands down. Hes just got more to go on there, and remember that Kal is a trained soldier, while Kel is a self-taught thief.

In the city, Kal would be at more of a disadvantage and Kel would win because of the terrain/hiding places and the fact that Kal glows. 

With regards to atium...Kal has the battle reflexes to learn that Kel is able to somehow predict his actions and could shoot into the air and simply stay out of Kelsier’s range until the atium burns away. Atium has its flaws too, and Syl can change into a different shape at will.

Mistborn range has no effect on the ability to fight Kal, since hes a windrunner and can draw all projectiles to a given spot, and the lighter they are the easier they are pull to that spot. 

Pewter < stormlight. Pewter augments the body’s natural abilities, but stormlight healing is more like feruchemical gold than pewter, so pewter is actually at a disadvantage here, though both burn quickly.

Tin is effectively negated by Syl and stormlight.

Brass and Zinc wouldnt really have a place in the fight, neither would bronze and copper. 

So like I said, I think it comes down to what scenario, when. 

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Kaladin is a nice person who doesn't like killing or hurting others.  Even if Kelsier attacked him he'd probably be trying to disarm or escape his opponent and would shy away from killing blows.  Trying to fight unfairly or dishonestly would even run the risk of damaging his bond.

Kelsier is a borderline sociopath who fights to win and can be utterly ruthless to achieve his goals.

I love both characters, but my money would always be on Kelsier.  He fights dirty, he fights to kill.

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50 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Brass and Zinc wouldnt really have a place in the fight, neither would bronze and copper.

Kelsier isn't known for subtlety with emotional allomancy but as Vin demonstrates, you don't need to be with a duralumin boost. Kaladin might be more resistant to its effects but we don't know that he would actually be immune completely, though with full shardplate and holding stormlight I imagine his resistance would be considerably greater. Still, as mentioned Kaladin is emotionally vulnerable so one good push at the right time, even if it doesn't hit quite as hard as we saw Vin do in WoA, could make a huge difference in a fight. So while not as useful against someone heavily Invested, brass and zinc do have their uses.

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3 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Kelsier isn't known for subtlety with emotional allomancy but as Vin demonstrates, you don't need to be with a duralumin boost. Kaladin might be more resistant to its effects but we don't know that he would actually be immune completely, though with full shardplate and holding stormlight I imagine his resistance would be considerably greater. Still, as mentioned Kaladin is emotionally vulnerable so one good push at the right time, even if it doesn't hit quite as hard as we saw Vin do in WoA, could make a huge difference in a fight. So while not as useful against someone heavily Invested, brass and zinc do have their uses.

I don't understand why people give Kelsier Duralamin. Pre-death Kelsier didn't know about duralamin, so it wouldn't have been an option.

And while you are correct about it's potential, Kelsier never really thought of the metals as useful in combat, which is the angle I was approaching from. Good reply though. Have a cookie.

Spoiler

three-chocolate-cookie.jpg

 

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Atium allows you to see into the future and process that accordingly. Syl's shape-shifting ability wouldn't be exempt from this, so it's effectively nullified. 

And again I have to reiterate, flying and waiting out Kel's atium relies on Kel being stupid and continually burning it.

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On 13.12.2017 at 5:41 PM, Fourth Of The Night said:

Pre-death Kel and Current Kal (ie: No Shardplate) would be a hard fight, but I think Kal would be able to wear down Kel's Atium reserves. Syl can become a literally indestructible shield, so anything Kelsier shoots at Kal would be nullified by Sylshield. Kal has also literally pushed away a Highstorm with his Adhesion, so I think he could also deal with Coins that way. 

 

Interesting thought: I think Jasnah could beat literally anyone, given Stormlight. Even if she couldn't Soulcast someone who was Invested, she could Soulcast the air around them into a block of Aluminum or Stone.

@Fourth Of The Night I think soulcasting a person is something like a battle of wills. So Jasnah, a very mind over matter woman, could easliy soulcast someone like the enraged Sadeas soldiers or the robbers in Karbranth. But someone like Kelsier or Marsch? Honestly I think those two would e one of the worst choices to try to soulcast in the entire cosmere.

No my two cents on Kelsier vs Kaladin. First of resurrected Kelsier will destroy Kaladin with zero effort. Fullborn or something close to it are just to powerful. Steel-compounding and gold-compounding and pewter-compounding, give you so much of an edge, that you wouldnt even need atium.

Lets set the stage for the fight.

Location: A neutral city with some metal and some stormlight, but not something like Kredikshaw or a highstorm.

Kaladin: A lot of stormlight, but nowhere near as much as in the battle of Thaylen City. Syl as a weapon, but no armour. Kaladins skill level will be the same as at the end of Oathbringer.

Kelsier: 3 vials with all 16 basic metals + Atium in the quantity he had fighting the Inquisitor Bendal. Lets say 15 minutes maximum, but more like ten. A purse of coins and two glass daggers.

Kaladin has superior healing, superior maneuverability and of course Syl, who can turn into anything from spears to shields. Kelsier has Atium and a wider variety of moves with all the different options metals give. Kel also is a total scumbag, while Kaladin would have to fight honourable. I dont think Kelsier would be above using a member of nobility as a human shield to protect himself from Kaladins attacks, which could endanger Kaladins Nahel bond. Also neither Kel nor Kal are stupid, so no wasting Stormlight or atium. Plus even if Atium runs out Kelsier could still use Electrum, which is the poor mans Atium.

Conclusion: I think Kelsier would win, but not easily, more like his fight against Bendal. He just has too many tricks up his sleeve with Nicrosil, Chromium, Duralumin and Zinc and Brass. I really think people underestimate, what rioting and soothing could do to someone with a fragile psyche like Kaladin. Isnt there a word of Brandon, that you could use bronze to sense other magic systems? If Kel can read when Kaladin is going to lash what, he has another advantage. Also it would make it impossible for Kaladin to hide from Kelsier, while he could easily attack the Radiant from the shadows. Also Kal will constantly glow like a lightbulb, which cant be usefull in a fight.

TL;DR: Kelsier wins, but barely.

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Krios said:

Lets set the stage for the fight.

Location: A neutral city with some metal and some stormlight, but not something like Kredikshaw or a highstorm.

Kaladin: A lot of stormlight, but nowhere near as much as in the battle of Thaylen City. Syl as a weapon, but no armour. Kaladins skill level will be the same as at the end of Oathbringer.

Kelsier: 3 vials with all 16 basic metals + Atium in the quantity he had fighting the Inquisitor Bendal. Lets say 15 minutes maximum, but more like ten. A purse of coins and two glass daggers.

Kaladin has superior healing, superior maneuverability and of course Syl, who can turn into anything from spears to shields. Kelsier has Atium and a wider variety of moves with all the different options metals give. Kel also is a total scumbag, while Kaladin would have to fight honourable. I dont think Kelsier would be above using a member of nobility as a human shield to protect himself from Kaladins attacks, which could endanger Kaladins Nahel bond. Also neither Kel nor Kal are stupid, so no wasting Stormlight or atium. Plus even if Atium runs out Kelsier could still use Electrum, which is the poor mans Atium.

Conclusion: I think Kelsier would win, but not easily, more like his fight against Bendal. He just has too many tricks up his sleeve with Nicrosil, Chromium, Duralumin and Zinc and Brass. I really think people underestimate, what rioting and soothing could do to someone with a fragile psyche like Kaladin. Isnt there a word of Brandon, that you could use bronze to sense other magic systems? If Kel can read when Kaladin is going to lash what, he has another advantage. Also it would make it impossible for Kaladin to hide from Kelsier, while he could easily attack the Radiant from the shadows. Also Kal will constantly glow like a lightbulb, which cant be usefull in a fight.

TL;DR: Kelsier wins, but barely.

 

 

 

I dunno, if you're giving Kel access to metals that he never had pre-death, then it would only be fair for us to assume Kal has access to Shardplate, at the very least. As far as Rioting and Soothing, you have to remember that Kal is HEAVILY invested, so it would be very difficult to affect him using Emotional Allomancy.

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47 minutes ago, Krios said:

Kelsier: 3 vials with all 16 basic metals + Atium in the quantity he had fighting the Inquisitor Bendal. Lets say 15 minutes maximum, but more like ten. A purse of coins and two glass daggers.

GLASS DAGGERS!!!

Kaladin would break this within the first few seconds of the fight, and using a nearby person as a shield makes it very hard for Kelsier to fight.

As for range, Kal has lashings which could overpower any steelpush, because it doesn't rely on weight

Pre-death Kelsier would LOSE in a fight, he would only win by murdering Kaladin in his sleep

Resurrected Kelsier however is OP as damnation

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@Fourth Of The Night The 16 metals for Kelsier is debatable, but I think it is fair, because they dont give as much an advantage as Shardplate or Kaladin being able to control his second surge, which we know next to nothing about by the way. And a well timed duralumin-enhanced sothing rioting combination could seriously impact Kaladin. Like doing it right before stabbing him in the face after Kel manouvered in place with atium. It would also enhance the stab with pewter. Stormlight can heal a lot, but massive brain damage is where I draw the line.

@Blazenella I think they use glass daggers in Mistborn sometimes, sometimes they are obsidian daggers. We could also give him two alluminum-alloy daggers, so he can block Syl. ^_^ If Kelsier would use an innoncent as a human shield, which I could believe him doing, and Kaladin kills the person, it would seriously endanger his bond with Syl. And with Atium Kelsier could pull that off. Of course he wouldnt know about the ramifications for Kaladin, but remember Kelsiers commandment is: "Survive!" And that most definitivly extends to himself.

At the end the problem is, that Kaladins powers are still developing, while Kelsier has two very different, but finished powersets. Mistborn and Fullborn. Kelsier as a Mistborn is a discussion, but a Fullborn? Kelsier or Marsch or Raschek vs all current Knights Radiants, wouldnt be a fair fight or even a fight for the Knights Radiants. Nothing short of a shard can stop a fullborn, in my opinion.

Also there is a demand for Kelsier and Kaladin meeting. I mean Sazed could just send Marsch and Kelsier to help out on Roschar. I mean imagine the scenes. All the possible cool things. I want this in Stormlight 4.

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I think people are grossly underestimating the importance of the high ground.  Heck, it's pretty much a maxim even in conventional tactics: seize the high ground.  Who has the high ground?  Kaladin, easily.  How is Kelsier even going to fight back if Kaladin decides to hang out a couple hundred feet up or so?  A coin fired upward at 100 ft/sec wouldn't even reach that high.  A coin fired at 200 ft/sec might, depending on air resistance, but it certainly wouldn't be moving very quickly by the time it got there.

So, at the worst, Kaladin should be able to draw the fight.  He can get out of Kelsier's range easily and can flee the field a lot faster than Kelsier could if he's running low on Stormlight.  He doesn't have a very good way of attacking Kelsier (this would be noticeably different if he were skilled with a bow, or even just carried a bow on him, but he doesn't), but I imagine even just hovering over Kelier's head and tossing Syl down time and again would be somewhat effective.  Kelsier has to dodge every time, while Kaladin only needs to get lucky once.

So given a fight between the guy at the top of a gravity well, who can't be hit, against the guy at the bottom of the gravity well, who needs to dodge a 200 mph Shardblade every ten seconds for an hour or two, I know who my money'd be on.  If it were nighttime Kelsier could probably slip away, but while the sun was up I'm pretty certain the victory would be Kaladin's.

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