[OB] I Hate Moash for Giving the Bridge Four Salute

[straits]

19 hours ago, Rainier said:

This was Moash getting revenge on the lighteyes that have wronged him, just like Kaladin has always wanted to do to Amaram. It's him showing respect to Kaladin, but not deference, as he is clearly working on his own. And now that they're free, I don't see why Moash shouldn't continue to use the Bridge 4 salute: he was on those runs, he went down into the chasms, and he is and was Bridge 4.

Hear hear. He lived the reality of the bridges and the chasms. The experiences down there are part of what led him to killing a king, and to becoming who he is today. He has the right to that salute.

He might be distasteful as a person, but as several other posters have said, he is not a supervillain for his deeds up to this point. Whether he might become that later in the books, is up for debate.

And to echo @Ookla the Obtuse, the salute was an incredible literary moment. It hurt to read.

[Wolven]

19 hours ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Continuing on that line of reasoning, yes, from our point of view, he was. From the other side, Elhokar was the leader of an enemy strike force kidnapping the crown prince from the Queen. Immediately after Elhokar's death, Gavinor is taken up by the Queen's Guard again. Corrupted by Odium or not, doesn't Aesudan have a right to protect her child from kidnapping?

I know Odium complicates the whole affair, but just because the narrative is framed with our protagonists in mind doesn't make this as simple as we want it all to be. 

I have a hard time believing that Aesudan has much of a right to anything at all.  She is possibly guilty of child neglect and absolutely guilty of child endangerment.  

[NotBurtReynolds]

1 hour ago, straits said:

Hear hear. He lived the reality of the bridges and the chasms. The experiences down there are part of what led him to killing a king, and to becoming who he is today. He has the right to that salute.

He might be distasteful as a person, but as several other posters have said, he is not a supervillain for his deeds up to this point. Whether he might become that later in the books, is up for debate.

And to echo @Ookla the Obtuse, the salute was an incredible literary moment. It hurt to read.

His actions may not make him a super villain for all of the characters yet(although I’d say regicide is usually a good enough reason for most people), but he is certainly one in Kaladin eyes. The Moash apologists can talk about him “earning” that salute all they want, but it was the salute of a coward. A salute  by a man who knew he didn’t deserve to make it, given to the man whom it would hurt the most.  A salute abdicating anything left of the man who had earned his place in Bridge Four, and all that was left of his humanity. 

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by NotBurtReynolds

[NotBurtReynolds]

And it we could step outside Roshar for a second and ask ourselves, If Kaladin was sitting across from me, sharing a cup of violet, what do you think his honest answer would be to “ soooo, whadcha think about that whole salute thing after the ol’ Elhokar murder? “ Because I think it would be less a long discussion parsing the moral implications on whether or not Moash had earned the right, and more a string of stormin’ curses

[Wolven]

16 hours ago, Rainier said:

If we want to talk about storming piles of rust (mixing shardic metaphors here) who take no responsibility for their actions, we need to talk about Szeth, not Moash. If we want to talk about vicious unstoppable killers, we need to talk about Dalinar, not Moash. If we want to talk about traitors and betrayers, we need to talk about Taravangian, not Moash.

Moash is just a man. A broken man doing what he can, caught up in worlds beyond his ken. Odium was the one to finally help him achieve what he wanted, and he still felt empty afterwards. Now that he's killed Jezrien and taken up his sword, I think we'll have a better idea of what kind of person Moash is, and what his motivations will be now that his quest for vengeance has been fulfilled. He's being manipulated, but I don't understand the hate for him. He's a great character and a great man (yes, petty revenge and defection included), which is why he protects the singers who are being treated badly.

I want to reemphasize that main difference between Moash and Kaladin is the level of nihilism. Kaladin tries to not care, but can't help but caring. Moash, finally, has been worn down, broken, and doesn't care. Their similarities makes Moash much more sympathetic to me, and much more interesting as an antagonist in the coming books.

Szeth not taking responsibility for his actions?  I don't think I can really agree with that.  This is a guy who absolutely despises himself for what he has done.  Yes, he justified it because he had no choice, and that's wrong, but he fully admits that what he was doing was wrong.  Eventually though he does admit that the oathstone was just a stupid rock.  Moash however fully believes himself to be in the right.

Also, when Szeth is finding that he is truly enjoying himself during the Skybreaker test, he immediately comes down on himself, not believing that he deserves to enjoy anything.  So I would say that Szeth at least takes personal responsibility for the things he does.  That is why his book is probably the one that I am more interested for than any of the others that are coming up.

Moash is a great character, but that doesn't mean that he can't be hated.  You can hate a great villain.  Can't agree that he is a great man though.  Just because he tried to protect those Singers doesn't make him a great man.  Not with the things he does afterwards.  Also, let's not forget that one of Odium's things is taking away people's pain and taking away their responsibility for the things that they have done.  That's how he gets you. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

24 minutes ago, Wolven said:

I have a hard time believing that Aesudan has much of a right to anything at all.  She is possibly guilty of child neglect and absolutely guilty of child endangerment.  

I agree with all of this in terms of viewing through a modern lens and especially, especially, in terms of personal opinion. I don't think that is mutually exclusive from the point I'm making about the importance of perceptions though. 

[shawnhargreaves]

One thing I'd like to add about the parallels between Moash and Kaladin:

Heroes are much more interesting if they achieve success in spite of serious challenges, rather than just coasting to a preordained conclusion.  That requires them to overcome genuine peril with a non zero probability of failure.  It's even more interesting to me when this peril comes in the form of internal emotional or ethical challenges, rather than just a massive pile of external monsters needing to be fought.

I find Moash compelling as a demonstration of what Kaladin could have become had he made a different choice during WoR.  They so nearly aligned at that point, but then arced in different directions and of course ended up in completely different places.  But for a moment there, Kaladin was on board with the same decision that Moash saw through to the end.  He's like an atium shadow of a possible future Kaladin that almost but never quite actually happened.

Stormlight is full of these what-could-have-been alternative character paths (another important one being Dalinar and Sadeas).  Seeing both possible outcomes helps me to appreciate the heroes more, and also sympathize more with those who made the wrong choices.  As Hoid put it, one small nudge to a rolling boulder at a crucial moment sends down an entirely different path.

Edited December 9, 2017 by shawnhargreaves

[Starla]

1 hour ago, straits said:

Hear hear. He lived the reality of the bridges and the chasms. The experiences down there are part of what led him to killing a king, and to becoming who he is today. He has the right to that salute.

He might have had the right to the salute when he was a loyal member of Bridge Four and living the ideals it represents, but I think he gave up that right when he nearly killed his commanding officer / close friend to get revenge. Kaladin would have died from that shardplate-fueled punch to the gut had Syl not returned in that moment. Regardless of what Moash thinks of Elhokar, is it worth killing a close friend to get to him? How is that any better than what Elhokar did? In my opinion, betraying a friend who has saved your life is unforgivable. I have a feeling Moash would have tried to kill Kaladin in Kholinar if he had gotten in the way, and would have justified it by saying that Kaladin was defending a murderer.  

Also, I think the big difference between Moash and Kaladin is that Kaladin takes responsibility for everything and Moash takes responsibility for nothing. Kaladin is self-sacrificing, Moash is self-centered. Kaladin tries to empathize with others, Moash feels like a victim with the world out to get him. No matter what similar life experiences they have had, these differences is so large that they are nearly opposite characters. They've both had bad chull happen, but one has taken responsibility and become a Knight Radiant while the other has blamed everyone else for his problems and is therefore ripe for Odium-picking. I expect an epic showdown between them in the next couple books, and cannot wait to see it. Despite my HUGE dislike of Moash's actions, I love reading him as a villainous character.

[Stormlightning]

I totally agree with @Ookla the Obtuse's comments, and I think that's why (although it was mostly subconscious at the time) I didn't immediately hate Moash. I definitely agree that Moash was trying to show respect, and love the idea that he was implying a thank you to Kaladin for giving him the freedom to make his own choices--even if those choices were at complete odds with what Kaladin would have him do.

I suspect that although Kaladin must have felt the salute as a slap in the face, he will come to recognize that Moash's skewed perspective probably didn't mean it that way. Doesn't mean he has to forgive him at all, but just that he can understand him a bit better and still sympathize rather than wanting to murder him.

I think we saw a little bit of what's coming for Moash's arc when the Fused told him (paraphrasing) "You have given your pain to Odium. He will return it when you need it." Followed immediately by "It would be worth it, if only he could forget the look of betrayal in Kaladin's eyes." 

So 1) that makes it clear to me that he didn't intend the salute as an F U. he obviously still wants a relationship with Kaladin, although by the end of the book he seems to have realized that he's sacrificed that relationship.

2) Like Amaram,  he still hurts. Presuming he lives long enough, this could compound until he eventually realizes Odium's not really doing anything for him and he proceeds to have a glorious redeption arc. Or get killed in the middle of it, just for some good ol' thematic justice.

Moash still considered himself a member of Bridge Four at the moment he killed Elhokar, but Kaladin's eyes made him start to feel he'd lost it. Then he went and offed Jezrien, officially 'killing' the old Moash. I don't think he still considers himself Bridge Four at this point. But if he ever has a run-in with members of Bridge Four and they're kind enough to say something like "You can still come back and be one of us. Once Bridge Four always Bridge Four," that might really shake him and do the same thing that Evi's I forgive you did for Dalinar. 

[straits]

5 hours ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

His actions may not make him a super villain for all of the characters yet(although I’d say regicide is usually a good enough reason for most people), but he is certainly one in Kaladin eyes. The Moash apologists can talk about him “earning” that salute all they want, but it was the salute of a coward. A salute  by a man who knew he didn’t deserve to make it, given to the man whom it would hurt the most.  A salute abdicating anything left of the man who had earned his place in Bridge Four, and all that was left of his humanity. 

 

I read it as the sardonic, malicious salute of someone who fulfilled his original goal. Calling it cowardice is appealing to a component of fair play that didn't exist in the war the Kholins waged to get their throne. I don't see why Moash should have waited to kill an enemy combatant until some kind of chance for an honorable duel presented itself.

I understand the sentiment in the bolded sentence and I don't claim Moash is a good person. But your last phrase about his humanity, I find to be hyperbolic, his transformation notwithstanding. 

This may be whataboutism, but the readership here generally holds Dalinar in high esteem. This is someone who waged an aggressor's war (read: the Kholinar brothers caused the war, they weren't defending themselves) and left thousands if not more innocent civilians dead in his wake. And this murderous adventurism is supposed to be forgiven because Dalinar took the Sweet Forgetfulness pill and is now a better man? No. He has yet to answer for these crimes.

But if a man like Dalinar can redeem himself, why can't Moash at some point? 

[NotBurtReynolds]

23 minutes ago, straits said:

I read it as the sardonic, malicious salute of someone who fulfilled his original goal. Calling it cowardice is appealing to a component of fair play that didn't exist in the war the Kholins waged to get their throne. I don't see why Moash should have waited to kill an enemy combatant until some kind of chance for an honorable duel presented itself.

I understand the sentiment in the bolded sentence and I don't claim Moash is a good person. But your last phrase about his humanity, I find to be hyperbolic, his transformation notwithstanding. 

This may be whataboutism, but the readership here generally holds Dalinar in high esteem. This is someone who waged an aggressor's war (read: the Kholinar brothers caused the war, they weren't defending themselves) and left thousands if not more innocent civilians dead in his wake. And this murderous adventurism is supposed to be forgiven because Dalinar took the Sweet Forgetfulness pill and is now a better man? No. He has yet to answer for these crimes.

But if a man like Dalinar can redeem himself, why can't Moash at some point? 

Hyperbolic, for sure..But it is a fantasy fan forum Trying to fit in...With that being said, if you're going to accuse someone of losing their humanity, a good spot is probably someone is literally fighting on the side of the non-humans and murdered a Herald at the command of a Shard intent on destroying all of humankind;)

Now I do think Moash can redeem himself, I just believe the bar to do so to be absurdly high at this point. Redemption via his death or, I don't know say, using a god-metal dagger to kill a god intent on destroying the human race? Now granted, I think if he does that he either dies in the process or picks up the Shard himself, but hey, redemption!;)

[straits]

Just now, NotBurtReynolds said:

Hyperbolic, for sure..But it is a fantasy fan forum Trying to fit in...With that being said, if you're going to accuse someone of losing their humanity, a good spot is probably someone is literally fighting on the side of the non-humans and murdered a Herald at the command of a Shard intent on destroying all of humankind;)

 

The brilliant thing about Sanderson's series is that he demonstrates the humanity (or sapience) of the Parshmen. It is the humans who committed cultural and literal genocide upon the Parshmen.

Which leads us to the question - is humanity in this case something good and noble? Or should Moash align himself with the victims of the original sin on Roshar?

Interesting food for thought, in a fantasy series of course

 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

29 minutes ago, straits said:

Which leads us to the question - is humanity in this case something good and noble? Or should Moash align himself with the victims of the original sin on Roshar?

That's kind of where I'm at right now. I feel like the only reason I'm not full-blown Singer fanboy is because Odium has hitched his wagon to that cart. And that feels very unfair to me. I want to be on their side, angry shards can storm off. 

[straits]

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

That's kind of where I'm at right now. I feel like the only reason I'm not full-blown Singer fanboy is because Odium has hitched his wagon to that cart. And that feels very unfair to me. I want to be on their side, angry shards can storm off. 

Agreed. Their People's Revolution has been hijacked by malignant extraterrestrial interest

[Nymeros]

I loved the salute. It was just a sign to show that he has no beef with Kaladin.

[Rainier]

17 hours ago, hypatia said:

But after reading Moash's PoV I think this is only partially right - Moash hadn't the need of Protection, but of Leading.

This is one of the most profound thoughts I've encountered on these boards. It's a perfect encapsulation of their relationship through two books, and it highlights the breakdown between their two characters.

17 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

So you are completely right that each of Szeth, Dalinar and Taravangian are worse in their respective problems (responsibility/killer/traitor) but where Moash is more than just a normal man is that he is all of these. He isn't as deeply in each problem as the others, but he has his fingers in many pies. That, in my mind, makes him more compelling as a character and also likely more attractive to Odium - because Rayse will have multiple ways in to gain a foothold. 

I feel like Hoid here, in that it seems to be more a matter of timing rather than intent. It seems that Moash is getting rust not becuase of what he's doing, but because of when he's doing it. It's not his fault that the apocalypse gave him the opportunity he was dying to have. And the fact that he's doing it despite the apocalypse seems to make him even less sympathetic.

17 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I hate Moash. But I hate him because he is compelling.

Don't you just HATE characters like this? The ones that are so compelling you just can't stand them? It's worse when they're protagonists (Dianora di Certando, if you know her). Good to see you in another thread, as your contributions are universally above-average.

[PhineasGage]

2 hours ago, Rainier said:

Dianora di Certando, if you know her

I don't - what is this from? Also, I'm always looking for new books - is it worth reading?

2 hours ago, Rainier said:

I feel like Hoid here, in that it seems to be more a matter of timing rather than intent. It seems that Moash is getting rust not becuase of what he's doing, but because of when he's doing it. It's not his fault that the apocalypse gave him the opportunity he was dying to have. And the fact that he's doing it despite the apocalypse seems to make him even less sympathetic.

This is interesting. The problem is certainly partly timing. Moash would likely never have been given the opportunity to kill Elhokar in the normal scheme of things. I mean lets face it, had Kal not bonded a spren, Moash would likely have died in the Bridgecrews. Even if he hadn't, he wouldn't have got shards (because Kal wouldn't have won them in the arena - they'd have likely lost the bout) and if no end of the world, then we have no diagram = no attempt to replace Elhokar with Dalinar which mean so suppport from Graves et al.

So I can kind of see Moash's position. He is driven by vengeance at this point (rather like Dalinar was at Rathelas - the 2nd time) and can't see clearly (imo). He has to use this opportunity despite the desolation because without the desolation he wouldn't have the opportunity. That being said, I feel like Dumbledore (lol - look at us both feeling like semi-all-knowing-mentor-archetypes) in that it is our choices, more than our abilities that define who we are. Moash could make a different decision - Kal did - but he is too far in at the moment imo - though I think redemption is possible, I suspect even in that arc he's going to meet a sticky end.

I actually feel for Moash. He is in pain and has chosen one way to handle that pain. He can't let go of vengeance, possibly because he has held it too long, and also because it was his absence from Kholinar that he blames (in part) for the death of his grandparents, whereas Kaladin blames his presence for the death of his squad. That is a big thing. Moash feels the need to act to change the status quo to make up for his lack of action (he didn't know what had happened and he blames himself for not being there at act) when his grandparents were imprisoned. 

2 hours ago, Rainier said:

Good to see you in another thread, as your contributions are universally above-average.

Awww shucks *blush* thanks  To be honest, it is much easier when a lot of the leg work has already been done - as it was in this thread!

[NotBurtReynolds]

7 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I loved the salute. It was just a sign to show that he has no beef with Kaladin.

He can have no beef with Kaladin all he wants...Kaladin has beef with him;)

[Fulminato]

 

On 8/12/2017 at 10:30 PM, shawnhargreaves said:

1) Moash wanted to kill Elhokar because he genuinely believed Elhokar was a terrible king who the world would be better off without (and, let's be honest, prior to the last portion of OB he wasn't entirely wrong about this).  He was willing to make huge personal sacrifices in order to achieve this goal - most importantly giving up Bridge 4 and Kaladin, who he loved and respected.

2) Later on he takes responsibility for protecting the Parshendi slaves (at great personal risk), which is exactly the same thing Kaladin would have done in that situation.

1)moash want elhokar dead because he killed (by action and inaction) his grandparent. any other faliure or accomplished of the king are irrilevant. kaladin join the assination scheme because he think elhokar a bad king, but not moash

“I only agree,” Kaladin said, “because it’s for the best. For you, Moash, this is about revenge—and don’t try to deny it. I really think it is what Alethkar needs. Maybe what the world needs.”

WoR Chapter 66 "Stormblessing"

we know the real man beyond the death of the moash's grandparent was roshone, kaldin tell him in that hallway. but he don't even remember the name. his hatred was against elhokar and elhokar alone, the end of the world his here and he don't put any effort on understand the bigger picture. in the end of WoR after greaves reveal a bigger scheme, and bigger player beyond the assasination  plot a better man probably will start to ask himself for the righteous of his action,

2) i don't agree.

Two overseers were whipping him. Moash seized one by the shoulder and pushed him back. “Stop it!” he snapped, then shoved the other overseer aside. “Don’t you see what you’re doing? You’re becoming like us.” The two overseers stared at him, dumbfounded. “You can’t abuse each other,” Moash said. “You can’t.

Oathbringer Chapter 48 "Rhythm of Work"

kaladin protect for the sake of protecting, for the people he protect. moash act because he need to see the singer better than human, if that sledge crew was an all human crew he probably never 'think' let aside act to try to stop the abuse. (and if some lighteyes was among them...)

Edited December 10, 2017 by Fulminato

[Wolven]

18 hours ago, straits said:

But if a man like Dalinar can redeem himself, why can't Moash at some point? 

What Dalinar did is of course a thousand times worse than what Moash did.  The big difference here though is accountability.  Even as Dalinar was destroying the Rift he knew it was wrong, it was to much.  And after it happens the only way he has of silencing the screams is through drink.  I think that would have been the case even if Evi had lived.  He knew that he was a piece of chull dung.

When he goes to the Nightwatcher he doesn't ask to have his memories and thus his pain taken away from him.  He didn't ask for a magical washing away of his sins.  He asked for forgiveness.

Moash though fully believes himself to be in the right, doesn't think there was anything wrong with what he did or what he's doing.  More than that he allowed Odium to take away his pain and his accountability.  As long as that's the case there is no hope for redemption for him.

I don't think he's strong enough to accept that though.  He lacks Kaladin's and Dalinar's strength of will.

[Nymeros]

11 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I don't - what is this from? Also, I'm always looking for new books - is it worth reading?

The book is Tigana.....and it's amazing. Really beautifully writfen.

10 hours ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

He can have no beef with Kaladin all he wants...Kaladin has beef with him;)

Lets see how successful Kaladin is at stopping him.

Vyre won't be as big a pushover as Amaran, I think.

[AerionBFII]

The way i read this was Moash killing Elhokar - Moash thought he was right getting his revenge and Kaladin thought he was in the right protecting Elhokar.

 

But that salute!! That hurt. It was like Moash saying "Hope we can still be friends" but in reality is was the worst thing he could have done.

[Seloun]

In WoR, Kaladin asks a pretty important question of Syl:

Quote

“And what if one of them was a Surgebinder,” Kaladin said. “With his own honorspren?”

“Parshendi can’t become Surgebin—”

“Just pretend,” Kaladin said, grunting as he tried another thrust. He wasn’t getting it right. “I’d guess all the Parshendi want to do at this point is survive. Storms, the ones involved in Gavilar’s death, they might not even still be alive. Their leaders were executed back in Alethkar, after all. So you tell me, if a common Parshendi who is protecting his people comes up against me, what would his honorspren say? That he’s doing the right thing?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 511). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Moash in Oathbringer is the beginning of the answer to that question. In effect, he is Kaladin from two books back, and the scene at the Oathgate is his stand at the Tower.

As mentioned elsewhere on the thread, Moash's relationship to his crew is quite similar to Kaladin's relationship to Bridge 4, with many nearly direct parallels. I don't think this is a coincidence - this is instead a call back to the question in the quote above.

With respect to Moash's attitude/behavior - it's probably a little unfair to compare Moash to Kaladin as he is now; among other things, Kaladin has a much stronger support team compared to TWoK (Dalinar, Adolin, Shallan, etc.) versus Moash who is essentially isolated (much as Kaladin was in TWoK in Sadeas's camp). Kaladin was quite defeatist in TWoK as well, remember, and much of his early reasons for trying to keep Bridge Four alive was somewhat selfish. And while Moash's issue right now appears to be not taking responsibility unlike everything-is-my-fault Kaladin, underlying both of their issues is self-hate. When Moash first intervenes for the Parshmen, he says:

Quote

Two overseers were whipping him. Moash seized one by the shoulder and pushed him back. “Stop it!” he snapped, then shoved the other overseer aside. “Don’t you see what you’re doing? You’re becoming like us.”

The two overseers stared at him, dumbfounded.

“You can’t abuse each other,” Moash said. “You can’t.” He turned toward the fallen parshman and extended a hand to help him up, but from the corner of his eye he saw one of the overseers raise his arm.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 485). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Shorly before this passage is the part where Moash seems to be disavowing responsibility for his actions:

Quote

What happened at the Shattered Plains wasn’t my fault, he thought as he hauled the sledge. I was pushed into it. I can’t be blamed. These thoughts comforted him.

...

During his youth, he’d listened to traveling ardents who accompanied the caravans. He knew that long ago, humankind had won. Aharietiam, the final confrontation with the Voidbringers, had happened thousands of years ago.

What had they done with that victory? They’d set up false gods in the form of men whose eyes reminded them of the Knights Radiant. The life of men over the centuries had been nothing more than a long string of murders, wars, and thefts.

...

The Voidbringers were smart, driven, and efficient. If Kholinar fell to this force, it would be no more than humankind deserved. Yes … perhaps the time for his people had passed. Moash had failed Kaladin and the others—but that was merely how men were in this debased age. He couldn’t be blamed. He was a product of his culture.

Only one oddity marred his observations. The Voidbringers seemed so much better than the human armies he’d been part of … except for one thing.

There was a group of parshman slaves.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 482-483). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

I interpret this as more of a coping mechanism for where Moash is right now. Moash still has an ideal (or perhaps an Ideal) about what he thinks society should be like, and he's not afraid to hold the nominally superior society to that standard. Specifically, when the society fails to meet his expectations, he doesn't alter his expectations - instead, he takes action to make that society closer to his ideal. If Moash is really just simply following directions, and if he was simply disavowing all responsibility for his actions, I don't see why he would have intervened for the group of Parshmen; he would have accepted it as being what the superior culture did, and that the fate of the Parshmen wasn't his responsibility.

Moash has made a lot of mistakes and he certainly has issues. His internal monologue sounds like he's taken the easy way out and denied responsibility for his actions. Yet his choices with the Parshmen belie that initial interpretation. His salute to Kaladin is an acknowledgement of where he's come from, and that he is where he is due to his own choices. In that, he's not really that different from Kaladin near the end of TWoK.

[Awesomness]

What I love about Moash is that he is grey, and there are meny ways to interpret his actions.

I could argue Moash didn´t murder Elokhar: he sided with the Singers in a war against humans, he found the leader ok Alethkar in battle and killed him, just as any other soldier would have. By far a lesser crime than, say, Sadeas´s murder.

It doesn´t matter if he had his son in his arms. Remember Dalinar feeling ashamed for not killing a child (and an heir)  in battle. This is he Alethi Way after all...

The salute could have been a sign of respect to the one who put him back on track and taught him how to fight.  After all, who would Moash be without Kaladin? I wonder if he still has the Bridge 4 patch..?

After killing Elokhar, he feels empty inside, and that is when he finally gives himself up to Odium, and does whatever the Fused ask without questioning, but he still has a sense of right and wrong, so I still think he may come back to the light side. 

I really don´t know where I stand regarding Moash, but he is really compelling, and a great way to contrast other character´s action. The kind of guy you love to hate.

[Rainier]

On 12/9/2017 at 9:55 PM, PhineasGage said:

I don't - what is this from? Also, I'm always looking for new books - is it worth reading?

On 12/10/2017 at 9:17 AM, Nymeros said:

On 12/9/2017 at 9:55 PM, PhineasGage said:

I don't - what is this from? Also, I'm always looking for new books - is it worth reading?

The book is Tigana.....and it's amazing. Really beautifully written.

As already mentioned, it's Guy Gabriel Kay's Tigana. Quick description is spoilers, but I don't give anything away that you won't read in the first quarter of the book. Overall I liked the book, but hated this character.

Spoiler

She's a courtesan for one of the two powerful wizards who are vying for control over the continent, specifically the wizard who destroyed the titular country because his son was killed conquering it. It was her (and a few others) that made me realize that prostitute characters really get to me, usually in a bad way.

 

On 12/9/2017 at 9:55 PM, PhineasGage said:

He can't let go of vengeance, possibly because he has held it too long, and also because it was his absence from Kholinar that he blames (in part) for the death of his grandparents, whereas Kaladin blames his presence for the death of his squad. That is a big thing. Moash feels the need to act to change the status quo to make up for his lack of action (he didn't know what had happened and he blames himself for not being there at act) when his grandparents were imprisoned. 

I really like this distinction, too, and along with the leading/protecting insight, this is another that informs not just my understanding of Moash, but also Kaladin. That fact that Kaladin's actions are what he interprets as the cause of the deaths around him is very significant, and it makes him hesitant to act in the future for fear of leading those he cares about into harm's way. Moash, due to his absence, feels the opposite: the need to act, to do something, anything, to make up for his inaction when those he cared about were harmed. Rather than be beset by doubt and guilt, he's driven by certainty and conviction. 

17 hours ago, Awesomness said:

What I love about Moash is that he is grey, and there are many ways to interpret his actions.

Me too, which is why I was displeased that Amaram turned out quite a bit blacker than I expected. I was looking forward to him as a morally grey character that's a step or two better than Sadeas, but instead he was the big-bad-boss (or miniboss) for this book. 

 

17 hours ago, Awesomness said:

I really don´t know where I stand regarding Moash, but he is really compelling, and a great way to contrast other character´s action. The kind of guy you love to hate.

To me he's very sympathetic. I never really liked Elhokar, and while it would have been nice if he was a just and true king, or if he had actually confronted his self-delusions as part of becoming a Lightweaver, but I'm just fine with him dying in his home city because of his prior failures. Moash, however, has always been the #2 to Kaladin, with some hints at rivalry, and by the end of WoR we see the split. Now he's being groomed as an actual rival in power to Kaladin, and I can't wait until we see another direct conflict between them. Kaladin's question about another honorspren bonded to a parshendi protecting his own makes me think that's exactly what will happen, with Moash doing the protecting, with or without honorspren.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Rainier