NotBurtReynolds

[OB] I Hate Moash for Giving the Bridge Four Salute

86 posts in this topic

Also, let me be clear...Narratively, I LOVED the scene...It was fantastic and just gave even more depth to the Kaladin/Moash arc. It was devastatingly cold-blooded and I've read it like 12 times(or maybe 9;).The contrast of what Moash see's himself doing with the salute and what Kal see's from his side, is spectacular and  I just really like thinking about that juxtaposition and what it foreshadows of Kal and Moash's continuing paths.

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@Ookla the Obtuse

I can understand your argument, and in another context I might agree, but I can't see it here.

He, probably knowing Kaladin was there, killed a man he knows Kaladin was willing to die for, looks Kaladin in the eye, and gives that salute. Not to mention, the person he killed was not fighting (sure he was armed, but his hands were pretty full, so you know he's not presently dangerous) and DAMNNATION HE WAS HOLDING HIS BABY CHILD IN HIS ARMS.

 

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The juxtaposition between Moash and Kaladin is what makes Moash a good villain and Kaladin a good hero. As I have said before I think it was set up this way on purpose. they are almost the same in every aspect except accountability, Moash takes none, and Kaladin takes too much. Because Moash takes none, his actions are selfish and he sees himself as not in control of his own problems. On the other side, Kaladin struggles to get past what he sees as his failures.

I think the dichotomy is a great addition to the story. But I still felt like the salute was more gut wrenching thank killing Elhokar.

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12 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

. I also respect him after what he did for the singers Kaladin abandoned to be abused for harboring his spying.

6 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

He's basically like Kaladin except he goes against every Ideal of the Knights Radiant. All the 'excepts' are what make him nothing like Kaladin, anymore.

There's a whole lot more of their lives than the last two books worth. They are the same, or close to same, even despite their different choices. That's the point: that similar people can make different choices and take different paths while still being similar people. Also remember the singers he helped: that was him acting like Kaladin, even after he's gone against every ideal of the Radiants. He's not a radiant, doesn't want to be, and doesn't have to be one. Not everyone will, and there's no reason to believe that in 100 lives Kaladin is a radiant in even one or two of them. 

4 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Moash has deluded himself and probably believes his salute was one of respect or one of repayment or something else that wasn't malicious. His delusion doesn't change what that salute was...A virtual ShardSlap to the face.

I'm going to disagree here, too. Moash intention absolutely matters, and I'd say it matters much more than how Kaladin took it. In the Cosmere, Intent is the basis of all magic, and allows sentient creates to achieve somewhat godlike powers, but Kaladin being angry somehow overrides what Moash Intended? I'm not buying it. 

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Moash knows about Amaram, and is the only one who understands that piece of Kaladin. He's the only one who's truly related to Kaladin on a personal level instead of revering him as their Radiant captain.

I love this. The salute was a signal between friends and equals, not follower to leader. This is what i mean when I'm saying they're the same. 

And remember, it's only because of Kaladin that Moash ever had this chance. Kaladin could have avoided it a dozen times, and would have if he were a better man. If he were a man a little less like Moash.

But then he wouldn't be Kaladin.

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Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. Past actions don't pay for the future. Just because you were good and did things that were right doesn't pay for all the bad since. All the cracks in Moash's soul which made him brethren to Kaladin,  have now been filled in by Odium. 

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12 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

I agree  that these are the things that Moash may be thinking. But all he's doing is rationalizing and justifying. He is the epitome of everything Odium is preaching..."It's not your fault". But just because he has rationalizations and justifications for his actions, doesn't make his actions any less heinous. He's had multiple opportunities to change his path, to divert his boulder just a bit, back to a one of Radiance. Instead he pushes it faster down the path to Odium.  Moash has deluded himself and probably believes his salute was one of respect or one of repayment or something else that wasn't malicious. His delusion doesn't change what that salute was...A virtual ShardSlap to the face.

I don't disagree with you at all, but that doesn't change my feelings about Moash in general, and, quite honestly, his refusal to take responsibility for his own actions doesn't make any of the realizations he's had about modern society less true. Dalinar's willingness to accept his role as a war criminal doesn't make him less culpable for his crimes, or those crimes less heinous than Moash (and let's face it, Dalinar's actions in Rathalas are exponentially more Odious than anything Moash has done.) 

We're also all looking at this from the "our side is the good guys" angle. Is Moash part of an enemy insurrection taking a capital city and assassinating the sitting monarch, or is he part of a slave rebellion that thwarts an attempt by enemy forces to seize the palace from his allies?

6 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

DAMNNATION HE WAS HOLDING HIS BABY CHILD IN HIS ARMS.

Continuing on that line of reasoning, yes, from our point of view, he was. From the other side, Elhokar was the leader of an enemy strike force kidnapping the crown prince from the Queen. Immediately after Elhokar's death, Gavinor is taken up by the Queen's Guard again. Corrupted by Odium or not, doesn't Aesudan have a right to protect her child from kidnapping?

I know Odium complicates the whole affair, but just because the narrative is framed with our protagonists in mind doesn't make this as simple as we want it all to be. 

Edited by Ookla the Obtuse
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1 minute ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

I don't disagree with you at all, but that doesn't change my feelings about Moash in general, and, quite honestly, his refusal to take responsibility for his own actions doesn't make any of the realizations he's had about modern society less true. Dalinar's willingness to accept his role as a war criminal doesn't make him less culpable for this crimes, or those crimes less heinous than Moash (and let's face it, Dalinar's actions in Rathalas are exponentially more Odious than anything Moash has done.) 

We're also all looking at this from the "our side is the good guys" angle. Is Moash part of an enemy insurrection taking a capital city and assassinating the sitting monarch, or is he part of a slave rebellion that thwarts an attempt by enemy forces to seize the palace from his allies.

Continuing on that line of reasoning, yes, from our point of view, he was. From the other side, Elhokar was the leader of an enemy strike force kidnapping the crown prince from the Queen. Immediately after Elhokar's death, Gavinor is taken up by the Queen's Guard again. Corrupted by Odium or not, doesn't Aesudan have a right to protect her child from kidnapping?

I know Odium complicates the whole affair, but just because the narrative is framed with our protagonists in mind doesn't make this as simple as we want it all to be. 

I think we actually agree on most..including what a kick chull scene it was:D. What I love about Oathbringer is all the ways it fleshed out that this will never be a 'just good guys vs just bad guys' .My point on why the salute was so devastating is that I understand why Moash would give it. I understand why he's given in to justifications he's made in his head. But no matter how much he's convinced himself, I think human nature says that there was at least a tiny piece of him that knew deep down that Kaladin would see that as spitting in the eye of everything Bridge Four stands for, even if Moash didn't truly believe that he was. And its that knowledge of what he was really doing to Kal, even if it was only a tiny piece of him that knew, that made the salute so cold-blooded. But, as I said, I. Loved. It.

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The scene was well written, but...

In response to the OP, if one of my men defects, and then shows up on the other side of a battle, and within my sight kills one of mine and then turns and salutes me... We have a vendetta. I would hunt him down and all my team would make a mission out of bringing him down. You train and arm a soldier, the price is loyalty. Doesn't matter what he meant by the salute. We don't accept the Honor Among Thieves argument, and we don't count being revered and feared by our enemies as ego building. Treachery yields retribution.

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11 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

And its that knowledge of what he was really doing to Kal, even if it was only a tiny piece of him that knew, that made the salute so cold-blooded. But, as I said, I. Loved. It.

Oh, I think that tiny piece hates himself, and isn't cold blooded. I mentioned this on the "let's talk about Moash" thread, but I think he's going to groom a lot of self hatred and especially hatred for everything except Kaladin, who is the only good thing on Roshar in his mind. My crazy out there theory as of right now is Kaladin dies end of book five and Moash witnesses it, which makes him turn on and strike down Rayse, then immediately take up the shard of Odium and start a holy war of vengeance against Roshar which is what truly causes the destruction of the world. Rayse has other designs, Moash would only want destruction of the world that killed the only good thing left in it. That truly terrifies me.

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Just now, Blacksmithki said:

@Ookla the Obtuse

I typed up a reply, sent it, then it deleted it and didn't send, so I'll get back to you on that in about an hour

Storms that's annoying. Have a frustration upvote.

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14 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Oh, I think that tiny piece hates himself, and isn't cold blooded. I mentioned this on the "let's talk about Moash" thread, but I think he's going to groom a lot of self hatred and especially hatred for everything except Kaladin, who is the only good thing on Roshar in his mind. My crazy out there theory as of right now is Kaladin dies end of book five and Moash witnesses it, which makes him turn on and strike down Rayse, then immediately take up the shard of Odium and start a holy war of vengeance against Roshar which is what truly causes the destruction of the world. Rayse has other designs, Moash would only want destruction of the world that killed the only good thing left in it. That truly terrifies me.

Now you're speaking my language;). I've been of the opinion that there's no way Rayse is still holding Odium by book 10. And I've had Moash earmarked as a replacement. Your idea about seeing Kaladin die, would certainly push Moash to the end. I like it!

Edited by NotBurtReynolds
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I think all of you lovely folks would enjoy a neat little subreddit I found recently: /r/stormmoash .  It's a hoot.

Anyways, earlier in the book I was of the opinion that Brandon was playing the long game and that Moash was going to become a KR of some other order.  

Then he did the storming salute, and now I he should go die in a hole. /s.  I'm actually kind of fascinated by his character, even if I do legimately think he's a steaming pile of rust that takes no responsibility for his actions (which, imo, is practically the moral of OB).

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4 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

I thought it was interesting because I don't interpret it as an F u, but as a sign of respect. Even though he's opposing Kal, Moash still respects his former leader and friend. Maybe even still considers himself a member of bridge four.

I agree that Moash meant it as a sign of respect.  Almost like "You knew this had to be done, and you almost helped me do it last time."  But to Kaladin, it's the ultimate "F-U".  I also hope Moash dies a slow, painful death.  

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1 hour ago, 1stBondsmith said:

In response to the OP, if one of my men defects, and then shows up on the other side of a battle, and within my sight kills one of mine and then turns and salutes me... We have a vendetta.

"one of my men defects" is quite an oversimplification of Kaladin's arc during WoR!

I'd suggest something like:  if one of my men raises a concern that I strongly agree with, and we bond over having this in common, after which he proposes a plan to act on the concern which I am conflicted about but eventually agree to go along with, except that I later do some growing and change my mind, at which point we have a conflict as he proceeds to put that plan into action - and then much later we meet again as he finally completes this plan and then turns and salutes me...  Well, by this point there's a LOT of complex and contradictory meaning packed into that salute :-)

 

8 minutes ago, raykoda said:

I'm actually kind of fascinated by his character, even if I do legimately think he's a steaming pile of rust that takes no responsibility for his actions

Does he not?  I don't agree with Moash on much, but being wrong is not the same thing as taking no responsibility...

Moash wanted to kill Elhokar because he genuinely believed Elhokar was a terrible king who the world would be better off without (and, let's be honest, prior to the last portion of OB he wasn't entirely wrong about this).  He was willing to make huge personal sacrifices in order to achieve this goal - most importantly giving up Bridge 4 and Kaladin, who he loved and respected.

Later on he takes responsibility for protecting the Parshendi slaves (at great personal risk), which is exactly the same thing Kaladin would have done in that situation.

As for his big epiphany that humans are unsalvageable so Roshar should revert to the Parshendi, this is an incredibly negative, nihilistic view of the world, but the conclusion "my entire species is so rotten that we should cease to exist" comes from taking WAY too much responsibility, not too little!  (aside: I find myself wondering whether any of this might parallel the Recreance).

I find Moash fascinatingly complex.   I love the symmetries between him and Kaladin.

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48 minutes ago, shawnhargreaves said:

Moash wanted to kill Elhokar because he genuinely believed Elhokar was a terrible king who the world would be better off without

I'm pretty sure we can say that this was his secondary reason. His primary reason was that he wanted revenge.

52 minutes ago, shawnhargreaves said:

I'd suggest something like:  if one of my men raises a concern that I strongly agree with, and we bond over having this in common, after which he proposes a plan to act on the concern which I am conflicted about but eventually agree to go along with, except that I later do some growing and change my mind, at which point we have a conflict as he proceeds to put that plan into action - and then much later we meet again as he finally completes this plan and then turns and salutes me...  Well, by this point there's a LOT of complex and contradictory meaning packed into that salute :-)

By this you mean, he tries to kill you so he can get revenge, even though he knows you are a potential KR, that will likely very important to the kingdom in the coming desolation.

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50 minutes ago, shawnhargreaves said:
1 hour ago, raykoda said:

I'm actually kind of fascinated by his character, even if I do legimately think he's a steaming pile of rust that takes no responsibility for his actions

Does he not?  I don't agree with Moash on much, but being wrong is not the same thing as taking no responsibility...

If we want to talk about storming piles of rust (mixing shardic metaphors here) who take no responsibility for their actions, we need to talk about Szeth, not Moash. If we want to talk about vicious unstoppable killers, we need to talk about Dalinar, not Moash. If we want to talk about traitors and betrayers, we need to talk about Taravangian, not Moash.

Moash is just a man. A broken man doing what he can, caught up in worlds beyond his ken. Odium was the one to finally help him achieve what he wanted, and he still felt empty afterwards. Now that he's killed Jezrien and taken up his sword, I think we'll have a better idea of what kind of person Moash is, and what his motivations will be now that his quest for vengeance has been fulfilled. He's being manipulated, but I don't understand the hate for him. He's a great character and a great man (yes, petty revenge and defection included), which is why he protects the singers who are being treated badly.

57 minutes ago, shawnhargreaves said:

Later on he takes responsibility for protecting the Parshendi slaves (at great personal risk), which is exactly the same thing Kaladin would have done in that situation.

As for his big epiphany that humans are unsalvageable so Roshar should revert to the Parshendi, this is an incredibly negative, nihilistic view of the world, but the conclusion "my entire species is so rotten that we should cease to exist" comes from taking WAY too much responsibility, not too little!  (aside: I find myself wondering whether any of this might parallel the Recreance).

I want to reemphasize that main difference between Moash and Kaladin is the level of nihilism. Kaladin tries to not care, but can't help but caring. Moash, finally, has been worn down, broken, and doesn't care. Their similarities makes Moash much more sympathetic to me, and much more interesting as an antagonist in the coming books.

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When I read it, I just said "Well, Sh**", and closed my eyes for a second. 

 

To me it was arguably one of the better scenes Brandon has ever written, giving credence to this fact is this topic and everyone's varying assumed implications of the salute. To me the whole thing was the most emotional scene that I've read in any of Brandon's books. Kaladin being helpless and failing to prevent the deaths of two groups of friends, him watching a man he didn't respect about to become a KR, and then Moash just coming up and brutally ending the man he told Dalinar he'd protect. Then the cherry-on-top effect of the salute, it was the perfect climax in my mind, no matter if you hate it or love it. 

As for the salute itself, I don't think Moash did it to harm or disrespect Kaladin. In most all of Moash's POV's, he thinks of Kaladin is a postive'ish light, and regrets how things turned out. Not necessarily the assassination attempt, but losing Kaladin as a friend. I think the salute was a way of Moash telling Kaladin that even though he did this "evil" thing, he remembers Bridge Four, and all the things Kaladin and the guys did for him. I think it's a sign that eventually we'll see a path of redemption for Moash.  

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I took the salute as an intentional F U on Moash's part. I don't believe he meant it as a sign of respect. There was a scene in part two, Chapter 54, where Moash met with Leshwi and she asked what angers him. Here is the quote:

Quote

“Then what does anger you? What is your passionate fury, Moash, the man with an ancient singer’s name?”

Yes, it was there. Still burning. Deep down. 

Storm it, Kaladin had been protecting a murderer. 

“Vengeance,” he whispered.

I think this scene is a turning point where Moash officially chooses to side with the Singers/Fused and turn away from Bridge Four/Kaladin. He doesn't think "Elhokar is a murderer." He thinks thinks "Kaladin had been protecting a murderer." I think he used this a way to justify abandoning any loyalty that might still remain to Kaladin, and choosing vengeance instead.

I also don't think Kaladin and Moash are similar people. They may have had similar backgrounds, but they respond and react to situations in completely different ways. Two people can be brought up in the exact same environment, and one can treat others with respect and compassion, while the other is self-centered and harmful. It is who they are are as a person, not their experiences, that connect them. Even though Kaladin has been hurt by ligheyes and hated them for it, he never tried to kill them for vengeance. I would say Rock, Sigzil, Rlain, Drehy, and the rest of Bridge Four are much more like Kaladin than Moash, even though their backgrounds and experiences are widely different. That's why they are his squires and Moash is not.

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It was an extremely effective writing flourish on Brandon's part.  On an objective level I still agree that Moash had every right to crave vengeance on Elkohar.  His loved ones were murdered and everyone involved got off with little more than a slap on the wrist.  Society offered Moash no legal pathway to address his grievances so he took the direct route to vengeance.  And although he made nice efforts at redemption in this book, it must be repeated that Elkohar was an absolutely terrible King who has shown no indication that he would ever abdicate his power.  So although Elkohar's death was heart wrenching to read from Kaladin's perspective, I actually may have still been willing to forgive Moash at that point knowing what he had been put through.

Flashing the salute at Kaladin was pure undiluted spite though, and instantly swung me into the "Moash is a garbage human being" camp.  Such a simple thing, but so emotionally effective.  That's good writing!

In the following chapters he's pure "banality of evil" made manifest though.  Murdering harmless drunk hobos simply because the higher ups asked him to, don't even need a reason like vengeance.

Moash is basically an anti-Radiant in character.  Radiants as much as anything seem to be guided by a focus on moral self-growth, striving to better themselves by accepting their previous failures.  Journey Before Destination!  Amaram was one example of a polar opposite of this, he refused to accept moral responsibility for any of his actions and Odium let him escape his guilt.  Moash, in a slight variance, seems to have decided that the world is awful, he himself is awful, and standing/striving for anything is pointless.  He's not lying to himself about being a hero like Amaram, but he has still embraced the nihilistic void all the same.

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1 hour ago, Starla said:

They may have had similar backgrounds, but they respond and react to situations in completely different ways. Two people can be brought up in the exact same environment, and one can treat others with respect and compassion, while the other is self-centered and harmful.

I agree they are not really similar, but I think the backgrounds weren´t the same. Yes, they both were darkeyes and their lifes were ruined by storming-lighteyed-cremlings. But the main difference in their backgrounds is their respective families. We don´t know much about Moash´s grandparents; but we know Lirin and Hesina are very unusual people, and Lirin is a great influence in Kal´s moral sense.

I personally don´t know what to think about the salute. That scene, though absolutely great, was too much for me, I haven´t reread it yet. 

I do believe Moash still sees Kaladin in a positive light, even if says he was protecting a murderer. And I think he has given himself up to odium and doesn´t question anything anymore. But Moash is not a mindless killer, he still has it in him to care, and to do the right think. I wouldn´t be surprised if he redeems himself at the last moment.

To me, Moash is an incredibly interesting character, I don´t know if I hate him or not, but his perspective makes a great contrast to the other arcs. 

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I remember asking myself in WoK and WoR if Moash really is similiar to Kaladin or if it's only Kaladin wanting this to be.

Without Kaladin telling this time and time again I don't think I would have seen it this way.

Now after OB there's the feeling Kaladin was so fixated on Moash, because he was someone he thought he doesn't need to protect.

But after reading Moash's PoV I think this is only partially right - Moash hadn't the need of Protection, but of Leading.

For the salute - after realising his want for vengeance there was a "little" problem called Kaladin. To get his revenge Moash had to find a way to eliminate Kaladin, a Radiant he can't overpower in a normal fight.

However this comes to be - basically we see a similar tactic as Kaladin had used against the Parshendi with the carapace.

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21 minutes ago, hypatia said:

For the salute - after realising his want for vengeance there was a "little" problem called Kaladin. To get his revenge Moash had to find a way to eliminate Kaladin, a Radiant he can't overpower in a normal fight.

However this comes to be - basically we see a similar tactic as Kaladin had used against the Parshendi with the carapace.

I like the route you went with this, but the salute came after Elhokar's death. Someone in another Moash thread said something similar about Moash using the parshmen Kaladin had spent time with for that purpose though. 

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12 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

Well, by this point there's a LOT of complex and contradictory meaning packed into that salute :-)

I have loved reading this thread - its been really great to see everyone's perspectives and I want to thank everyone here for maiking it such an interesting read. For the record, I can see why each person has their opinion and I think there is good evidence for each interpretation - it comes down to personal feelings. So even if my comments contradict anyone here, it is more about my own attitudes than specific evidence.

11 hours ago, Rainier said:

If we want to talk about storming piles of rust (mixing shardic metaphors here) who take no responsibility for their actions, we need to talk about Szeth, not Moash. If we want to talk about vicious unstoppable killers, we need to talk about Dalinar, not Moash. If we want to talk about traitors and betrayers, we need to talk about Taravangian, not Moash.

This is amazing. I both agree and disagree with you! So you are completely right that each of Szeth, Dalinar and Taravangian are worse in their respective problems (responsibility/killer/traitor) but where Moash is more than just a normal man is that he is all of these. He isn't as deeply in each problem as the others, but he has his fingers in many pies. That, in my mind, makes him more compelling as a character and also likely more attractive to Odium - because Rayse will have multiple ways in to gain a foothold. 

11 hours ago, Rainier said:

I want to reemphasize that main difference between Moash and Kaladin is the level of nihilism. Kaladin tries to not care, but can't help but caring. Moash, finally, has been worn down, broken, and doesn't care. Their similarities makes Moash much more sympathetic to me, and much more interesting as an antagonist in the coming books.

hate Moash. But I hate him because he is compelling. I can't hate Odium (yet) because he isn't enough of a person to me - Moash betrays Kal and that makes me very anti him. But I can't wait to read more of his arc. I don't care whether he is redeemed or not, as long as he remains interesting! 

I am definitely on the side of thinking Kaladin and Moash are similar in many ways. I'll just point out my reasons:

  • Moash resists Kaladins ladership at the beginning. Kaladin resists leadership from others as well (he puts himself outside the chain of command with Dalinar -and even then he is often autonomous)
  • They are both natural fighters (ok so is Skar, but Moash is mentioned very frequently as having been extraordinary in his speed of skill acquisition - as was Kaladin)
  • They both want(ed) vengeance against a lighteyes of rank
  • "Moash" is an ancient name from the Singers. Kaladin means "born into eternity" (i guess - "kalad" = eternal) so even their names invoke age - and we find out their meanings in the same book
  • They are both socially miles from where they started (both become light-eyed). 
  • Both feel separated from ordinary people (Moash by being with the Fused, Kal by being a Radiant)
  • Both take up leadership roles with the same group of Singers.
  • They miss each other. We see Kaladin refuse to talk about Moash leaving and worrying about it internally, and we see Moash think of Kal a great deal)

On top of that there are some interesting mirror moments. 

  • Kaladin recovers Jezrien's blade, Moash kills Jezrien
  • Kaladin doesn't kill Amaram (despite his hatred), Moash kills Elhokar (because of his hatred)
  • Kaladin is paralysed by seeing his men on both sides fight at the palace. Moash acts to kill Elhokar despite having loved ones on both sides
  • Kaladin doesn't kill Moash when Moash/Graves try to assassinate Elhokar in WoR - this allows Moash to later kill Elhokar but he doesn't attack Kaladin - he salutes him.
  • Kaladin voluntarily gave up his shards (in tWoK) and gained his own blade (Syl). Moash lost his shards but got his own blade (?Odiumblade?)

My personal take is that Kaladin and Moash are very similar and their different arcs occur as a result of only tiny differences between them. Kind of like a tiny miscalculation in direction can change your end destination dramatically if you travel far enough. To me, Moash and Kaladin would have been the same had Moash been able to set aside his hatred of Elhokar, the way Kaladin set aside his desire for revenge on order to swear his 3rd Ideal. I think Moash regrets his decision and he cannot figure out how to go back and fix the mess he's in. So he just keeps digging - hoping to get himself out of the hole he has made, but instead just keeps getting deeper. As he gets deeper, he tries harder and harder to justify his actions and this is where his problem with Odium will lie - he may end up going down the Amaram route as a result.

To be clear, I don't think he regrets killing Elhokar or the assassination attempt, but he regrets attacking Kaladin and he doesn't understand why Kaladin changed his mind and he regrets not being able to understand why. Because Moash doesn't see where he went wrong he doesn;t (yet) understand why he and Kal are on opposing sides. I am not sure if he'll ever figure it out. If he does it will likely be part of a redemption arc.

So my personal take is that Moash's salute is more akin to the salute between Eshonai and Dalinar (i think? the one in tWoK iirc) where they are definitely opponents but can still have respect. I think Moash still respects Kaladin and this was a form of that. I think he wishes they weren't on opposing sides and knows Kaladin well enough to know that Kal would only have changed his mind if there were good reasons (from Kal's perspective). So it isn't an F U so much as acknowledgement of their similarities and (former) bond. 

I think it is possible that Moash will learn to hate Kaladin because he doesn't understand the change of heart in WoR and that will make him dangerous going forward.

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For me Moash inspires sadness and a bit of revulsion, rather then hate. He feels dead and numb, maybe something like, Kaladin, if he allowed "the wretch" to win. 

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