NotBurtReynolds

[OB] I Hate Moash for Giving the Bridge Four Salute

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Elhokar, king of Alethkar, was dead.

Moash pulled his spear free and glanced at the Shardblade. Then he kicked it aside. He looked at Kaladin, then quietly made the Bridge Four salute, wrists tapped together. The spear he held drippedwith Elhokar’s blood.

I hate him for making the salute in that moment. It was sticking a metaphorical spear through Kaladin, after putting the real one through Elhokar. Strangely, I have an easier time justifying his murder of Elhokar than the world’s most hurtful F you that he gave to Kaladin. I now have Kaladin as a huge favorite to be murdering Moash eventually. Honor speed

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When I read that in school, I leaned in really close to my book and whispered "You f**king b**ch"

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I thought it was interesting because I don't interpret it as an F u, but as a sign of respect. Even though he's opposing Kal, Moash still respects his former leader and friend. Maybe even still considers himself a member of bridge four.

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Yeah, I totally agree - I hated Moash in this book.  Giving Kaladin the Bridge Four salute was just terrible, I thought it was a deliberate slap in the face.  Moash just seems totally dead inside - like he doesn't have any values or goals and he doesn't care what happens to himself or anyone else.  I really don't see any way for his character to be redeemed.

Edited by Llarimar
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This was Moash getting revenge on the lighteyes that have wronged him, just like Kaladin has always wanted to do to Amaram. It's him showing respect to Kaladin, but not deference, as he is clearly working on his own. And now that they're free, I don't see why Moash shouldn't continue to use the Bridge 4 salute: he was on those runs, he went down into the chasms, and he is and was Bridge 4.

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9 minutes ago, Rainier said:

This was Moash getting revenge on the lighteyes that have wronged him, just like Kaladin has always wanted to do to Amaram. It's him showing respect to Kaladin, but not deference, as he is clearly working on his own. And now that they're free, I don't see why Moash shouldn't continue to use the Bridge 4 salute: he was on those runs, he went down into the chasms, and he is and was Bridge 4.

Bridge 4 is continuing to add to their numbers, people who didn't go though what the original members did. I would argue the trials they went through forged bridge 4 but isn't what makes someone a member of bridge 4. The ideals of unity and protection are what make someone a member of bridge 4.

Also, Moash has made decisions to take him away from bridge 4, he took a shard blade and plate, he tried to kill Kaladin, and how he killed someone Kaladin was trying to protect. His salute feels like he is spiting in the face of everything bridge 4 stood for.

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38 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

I thought it was interesting because I don't interpret it as an F u, but as a sign of respect. Even though he's opposing Kal, Moash still respects his former leader and friend. Maybe even still considers himself a member of bridge four.

Yea, I wasn't clear. I think Moash GAVE it as his way of showing Kal respect, but in Kal's shoes I would take it as a big F U.  As in "you dirty snake, how dare you poison our salute with your misdeeds, not matter how justified you feel?" Bridge Four was forged in part by Kal rejecting all the feelings which led Moash to that moment. I think he would just see it as the one last heartbreaking nail he had to put in Moash's redemption coffin. One last enforcement that Moash wasn't Bridge Four and wasn't Kal's friend.

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1 minute ago, Messremb said:

Bridge 4 is continuing to add to their numbers, people who didn't go though what the original members did. I would argue the trials they went through forged bridge 4 but isn't what makes someone a member of bridge 4. The ideals of unity and protection are what make someone a member of bridge 4.

Also, Moash has made decisions to take him away from bridge 4, he took a shard blade and plate, he tried to kill Kaladin, and how he killed someone Kaladin was trying to protect. His salute feels like he is spiting in the face of everything bridge 4 stood for.

Yes, those things. :D

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In other news, if I ever form a speed-metal band, it will be called Moash Redemption Coffin.

 

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Just now, Messremb said:

I would argue the trials they went through forged bridge 4 but isn't what makes someone a member of bridge 4.

You're not really about to tell me that a man who charged the Parshendi at the Tower isn't a real member of Bridge 4. 

 

1 minute ago, Messremb said:

His salute feels like he is spiting in the face of everything bridge 4 stood for.

I disagree completely, it was him acknowledging the commonality between Kaladin and Moash. Of course they're different, but they're also the same.

 

1 minute ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Bridge Four was forged in part by Kal rejecting all the feelings which led Moash to that moment.

Sure, in part, but not in its entirety. Bridge 4 was formed by surviving and striving. It was by choosing life over death. Kaladin in particular wanted to protect others, but the rest of them didn't have to make that choice, they just had to care about being human, to care about coming back alive. 

The way I see it, Moash took Kaladin up on his offer, belatedly. He's choosing freedom for himself after the servitude of Bridge 4. He's no radiant, just a man, and it shows in his failings. 

But Moash earned the right to give that salute when he went back for Dalinar and the rest of his army. 

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1 hour ago, Ookla the Variable said:

When I read that in school, I leaned in really close to my book and whispered "You f**king b**ch"

I scared my baby yelling "Moooaaaaaaassssshhhhhhhh!!!!!!" in the style of "Kahhhhhhhnnnnnnnnn!"

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6 minutes ago, Rainier said:

You're not really about to tell me that a man who charged the Parshendi at the Tower isn't a real member of Bridge 4. 

there were 40 bridge crews if I remember correctly,  only 1 of them was bridge 4, and all of them charged the tower.

You're not really about to tell me that a man who tried to kill the leader of bridge 4, and a knight radiant, and one of his closest friends, all to get vengeance, is still a member of bridge 4.

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2 minutes ago, Rainier said:

You're not really about to tell me that a man who charged the Parshendi at the Tower isn't a real member of Bridge 4. 

 

I disagree completely, it was him acknowledging the commonality between Kaladin and Moash. Of course they're different, but they're also the same.

 

Sure, in part, but not in its entirety. Bridge 4 was formed by surviving and striving. It was by choosing life over death. Kaladin in particular wanted to protect others, but the rest of them didn't have to make that choice, they just had to care about being human, to care about coming back alive. 

The way I see it, Moash took Kaladin up on his offer, belatedly. He's choosing freedom for himself after the servitude of Bridge 4. He's no radiant, just a man, and it shows in his failings. 

But Moash earned the right to give that salute when he went back for Dalinar and the rest of his army. 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on what being Bridge Four means...I don't think Bridge Four has anything to do with any battles they've waged. Battles and combat serves as bonding over commonality for them, but being Bridge Four is about what's inside you. Its not charging the Parshendi at the Tower, it what was inside you that made you make the decision to charge the tower. Moash was in Bridge Four because he shared what was in Kaladin and the rest..THE IDEALS. Moash is no longer in Bridge Four just Kaladin would no longer be a Windrunner if he had continued with the Elhokar assassination plot. It's not Bridge Four 4 Life just because we ran the chasms. It's Bridge Four because it's Bridge Four. And that's no longer Moash. So cut it with the salute, rat-snake:D

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24 minutes ago, Rainier said:

 

But Moash earned the right to give that salute when he went back for Dalinar and the rest of his army. 

Yes, he did.  But then he lost that right when he tried to kill the man who gave him his life back, and offered him a purpose besides simple, and ultimately, unsatisfying revenge.

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I saw it as an "F U" as well.  Hail, Great Leader!  Look what I, once your friend, have done to one under your protection!  I salute you!

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I don't think Moash in his current numb state could be spiteful like that.

Instead, I agree with the Moash stilling feeling a connection to Kalidin and Bridge 4, acknowledging Kaladin as a brother, just fighting on the other side. Moash and Kaladin are very similar, Moash is the version of Kaladin that chose vengeance over protecting. I suspect we'll continue to see these two take mirrored paths.

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There was no respect in that gesture. He might as well have spit in Kal's face when he did that. 

You have to remember that Kaladin prevented Moash from getting the revenge he wanted in WoR. This was Moash's payback, not only to Elhokar, but to Kaladin. 

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1 minute ago, Wandering Investor said:

I suspect we'll continue to see these two take mirrored paths.

I think their relationship will br similar to Szeth and Nale.

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To people saying he is still a member of bridge 4, there is a reason the epigraph image for his character is specifically a uniform with the bridge four patch cut off.

You can't argue bridge four are the people who went back for Dalinar's army and fought to save them, because Rlain. I don't know if it's explicitly stated he didn't fight there, but there is no argument he did considering they left him behind in the war camps when they started using the armor.

Bridge four has evolved and is no longer defined by an experience but by an ideal.

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38 minutes ago, Messremb said:

there were 40 bridge crews if I remember correctly,  only 1 of them was bridge 4, and all of them charged the tower.

No, I'm talking about going back for Dalinar. Bridge 4 was lagging behind with the intention of deserting when they, and only they, went back for Dalinar and his army. And remember who was holding the bridge to get Dalinar and Adolin back across: Moash.

Honestly after that scene I don't really care about who is and isn't Bridge 4. The only reason I care about who might be Bridge 4 is because that's the bridge that went back for Dalinar. That's the group of people that made stew every night and ran into incoming arrows every day. That's why I like Moash, and Teft, and Drehy, and Rock, and Kaladin. They stood where others fell (Stonewards, anyone?). 

2 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Instead, I agree with the Moash stilling feeling a connection to Kalidin and Bridge 4, acknowledging Kaladin as a brother, just fighting on the other side. Moash and Kaladin are very similar, Moash is the version of Kaladin that chose vengeance over protecting. I suspect we'll continue to see these two take mirrored paths.

Everybody wants to hate on Moash and make him into this evil supervillain, which he isn't. He's basically the same as Kaladin, and that's what the salute meant. It was a signal between kindred spirits once close, now apart, and a sign that his battle wasn't with Kaladin at all, but with Elhokar.

We should look at that salute and think, "there but for the grace of Honor goes Kaladin," and feel sympathy, not hatred.

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I took it as an F U as well. Like I finally finished the job. Plus the Bridge 4 salute is the friendly finger from Friends. 

 

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So at the risk of getting an avalanche of hate...(glances gratefully at the now gone downvote button)

loved the salute. I've posted in a number of places that this whole scene was my favorite part of the book. I loved Moash's storyline and I'm very excited for his future. 

Now don't get me wrong, I totally understand the anger, I get where it's coming from, and absolutely agree that it's justified, I just feel like I understand Moash. (Not condone, but understand. I also respect him after what he did for the singers Kaladin abandoned to be abused for harboring his spying.)

So I don't see Moash as giving the salute as malicious, a sign of respect, or anything like that. I think that Moash was trying to repay Kaladin in what small way he could by teaching Kaladin how other take care of himself by getting revenge. (Please note, I am not agreeing with that lesson or saying it's a good one, but just that I think that's what Moash was doing.)

Moash knows about Amaram, and is the only one who understands that piece of Kaladin. He's the only one who's truly related to Kaladin on a personal level instead of revering him as their Radiant captain. When Moash notices that Kaladin has witnessed his revenge, he makes the salute as a reminder of 'I got my revenge because of you and Bridge Four, thank you. Don't forget to do the same for you, you deserve that peace, for your men." (Again, this is a twisted lesson, but it's what makes the most sense to me for where I've seen Moash in the series. I do not agree with the philosophy on a personal level, but it appeals to me on a narrative and aesthetic level.)

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3 minutes ago, Rainier said:

 He's basically the same as Kaladin, and that's what the salute meant.

There's a lot of yada-yada in that "basically". He's basically like Kaladin, except that every chance he had to make a horrible decision, he took it. He's basically like Kaladin except he kills in cold blood. He's basically like Kaladin except he goes against every Ideal of the Knights Radiant. All the 'excepts' are what make him nothing like Kaladin, anymore.

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@Ookla the Obtuse I like it! I can see the arguments for every side and appreciate this new way of looking at it. It will be exciting when we will get more clarification on Moash, and his motives, in the next book; or perhaps Brandon will always have this scene remain ambiguous?

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4 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

So at the risk of getting an avalanche of hate...(glances gratefully at the now gone downvote button)

loved the salute. I've posted in a number of places that this whole scene was my favorite part of the book. I loved Moash's storyline and I'm very excited for his future. 

Now don't get me wrong, I totally understand the anger, I get where it's coming from, and absolutely agree that it's justified, I just feel like I understand Moash. (Not condone, but understand. I also respect him after what he did for the singers Kaladin abandoned to be abused for harboring his spying.)

So I don't see Moash as giving the salute as malicious, a sign of respect, or anything like that. I think that Moash was trying to repay Kaladin in what small way he could by teaching Kaladin how other take care of himself by getting revenge. (Please note, I am not agreeing with that lesson or saying it's a good one, but just that I think that's what Moash was doing.)

Moash knows about Amaram, and is the only one who understands that piece of Kaladin. He's the only one who's truly related to Kaladin on a personal level instead of revering him as their Radiant captain. When Moash notices that Kaladin has witnessed his revenge, he makes the salute as a reminder of 'I got my revenge because of you and Bridge Four, thank you. Don't forget to do the same for you, you deserve that peace, for your men." (Again, this is a twisted lesson, but it's what makes the most sense to me for where I've seen Moash in the series. I do not agree with the philosophy on a personal level, but it appeals to me on a narrative and aesthetic level.)

I agree  that these are the things that Moash may be thinking. But all he's doing is rationalizing and justifying. He is the epitome of everything Odium is preaching..."It's not your fault". But just because he has rationalizations and justifications for his actions, doesn't make his actions any less heinous. He's had multiple opportunities to change his path, to divert his boulder just a bit, back to a one of Radiance. Instead he pushes it faster down the path to Odium.  Moash has deluded himself and probably believes his salute was one of respect or one of repayment or something else that wasn't malicious. His delusion doesn't change what that salute was...A virtual ShardSlap to the face.

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