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Blazenella

[OB] Hemalurgy on Roshar

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kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

Have we seen any evidence of Hemalurgy on Roshar? And, as sort of an addendum, given the end of Oathbringer, was what happened to Jezrien Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are certain cosmere philosophers that would count it. I would divide it as two separate things that are using similar fundamentals. I wouldn't call it myself, but there are people who would disagree with me in-world. Have we seen evidence? I would say no evidence that is easy to pick out.

kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

But it's there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, there are people with Hemalurgy who have been to Roshar. I'm pretty sure they've been on-screen.

So, we have some Hemalurgy on Roshar.

Not only is what Moash did considered at least partially Hemalurgy, but we have apparently seen some people who have Hemalurgy. Who have we seen with Hemalurgy? An Inquisitor? A Kandra?

Something I'm curious about is if the dagger Moash used was made of Odiums godmetal, if he has one, and how this somehow stole the part of Jezriens soul that makes him go back to Damnation when he dies.

Another thing that REALLY stuck out to me when reading Oathbringer was this line

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"He felt each death like a spike driven into his soul." - Dalinar facing Odium

I feel like Odium was using some form of Hemarlurgy to transform Dalinar into his champion, giving him acces to the other surges, and giving him the "9 Shadows" this is supported by this WoB

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Questioner 2

Is it possible to steal Surgebindings.

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to steal Surgebinding.

Thoughts?

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Now that I think about it it's definitely possible that odium steals pain in a way that's similar to hemalurgy- I like this. Have an upvote!

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Maybe it's Iyatil? She's from Southern Scadrial and a Worldhopper. Considering that Allomancy is supposed to be incredibly rare to the point where they don't have Mistborn there, her described speed and the way she can seemingly disappear could be a sign that she has a hemalurgic spike letting her burn pewter and either steel or iron.

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5 minutes ago, Heretic said:

Maybe it's Iyatil? She's from Southern Scadrial and a Worldhopper. Considering that Allomancy is supposed to be incredibly rare to the point where they don't have Mistborn there, her described speed and the way she can seemingly disappear could be a sign that she has a hemalurgic spike letting her burn pewter and either steel or iron.

That could also explain why she always wears a mask, possibly covering up some hidden spikes.

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43 minutes ago, Blazenella said:

That could also explain why she always wears a mask, possibly covering up some hidden spikes.

The mask is due to the culture of Southern Scadrial. That's actually how we figured out where she came from. There are several tribes on Southern Scadrial and all use mask. Some are more open to taking the mask off, and others will almost never take the mask off, and at least one of the tribes will never take them off, instead of letting it grow into their face.

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56 minutes ago, Heretic said:

Maybe it's Iyatil? She's from Southern Scadrial and a Worldhopper.

Iyatil is not from Southern Scardial, she is descended from the culture, but does not herself come from there. There is no evidence that she is aware of hemalurgy.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/59-librarypalooza/#e716

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FeatherWriter

Is Iyatil from Southern Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Iyatil has heritage along those lines, but she is not.

 

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I stand corrected, she is not from Southern Scadrial. But if she has heritage from there, the same mask culture may apply.

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Questioner 2

Is it possible to steal Surgebindings.

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to steal Surgebinding.

If you created a pin/spike from a sapphire and stabbed a Windrunner and then pierced yourself  with it you probably would capture the spren.

Net loss in Power would probably be one of the surges. Oath level stays constant.

Creation of a surgbinding "mistborn" this way by capturing the spren from each order will drive the person insane with 9 or 10 different spren of which many don't go along either with each other or the personality of the receiver. They cannot perform any moral action that will not alienate one or more of the spren and in the end make deadeyes of them. 

Must shardblades alway be summond in the hand of the owner or can they be materialized at a distance, like in the body of someone? In the later case the surgeborn can simply sit in a chair with 9 instantly summonable sharblades and cause problems for antagonists. 

Capturing the bond of a bondsmith spren by hemalurgy seems unlikely, this would only kill the bondsmith. In my head capturing a god spren would require a spike the size of a Saturn V rocket which be cumbersome to carry around in your body.God spren cannot be contained in a simple spike.

 

 

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I seriously doubt it's possible to Hemalurgically steal surgebinding without killing the spren. I expect what you'd wind up with is a static patch of sDNA related to the bond, thus making Surgequisitors™ extra dangerous because they don't answer to spren (remind you of Syl's reaction to the Honor blade?).

ETA: In light of a WoB downthread, I retract part of this. I had thought the sDNA related to surgebinding was grafted into the Radiant's soul and could be stolen there, but it looks like it resides in the spren, and what the Radiant gets is Connection code that lets them access it.

The fact that you have to spike the spren as well only enhances my main point, though: you can't expect to steal the power without killing the spren.

Edited by digitalbusker
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15 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

I seriously doubt it's possible to Hemalurgically steal surgebinding without killing the spren. I expect what you'd wind up with is a static patch of sDNA related to the bond, thus making Surgequisitors™ extra dangerous because they don't answer to spren (remind you of Syl's reaction to the Honor blade?).

It sort of is.  But would be weird.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127-salt-lake-city-comiccon-2017/#e5188

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Questioner

I was wondering if a bond to a spren, a Nahel bond, may be taken with a Hemalurgic spike.

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible but it's gonna-- Since the spren has free will it's going to be-- Yeah it's going to have weird ramifications but it is a possible thing.

 

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2 hours ago, RShara said:

We have also got this WoB that shows how weird it could get

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Questioner (paraphrased)

If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection.

 

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Wild speculation below.

No spren bond stealing needed then unless blade and plate are wanted.

Gem Spike will only capture or kill the spren . To steal the bond possibly a nicrosil spike on the spren could work since the bond is pure Investiture or duralumin to steal the Connection between spren and Radiant. Kaladin stabbed a spren in the physical realm so this could be done outside shadesmar but will be tricky in close proximity to the Radiant.

The spren will be furious. Having one of each order is useless since you can't please them all at once and bonds will degrade. The sprenquisitor could at best work as an interspren diplomat.

Spike Radiant. Each surge probably can be caught by some corresponding metal or possibly nicrosil (which could be an all around stealing metal outside Scadrial because of it's Investiture properties).

 

 

 

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Surely the aviar example indicates you have to steal the power from the spren and the bond from the Radiant.

ETA: What I mean is that I don't think you can use the power you stole from the spren without also using the Connection you stole from the Radiant.

Edited by digitalbusker
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The Aviar WoB also shows that metal is used to steal non-scadrian powers on non-scadrian worlds. 

This implies that hemalurgy always uses metal. 

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Back to the original question could the hemalurgist be Renarin Kholin.

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The 17th Shard and the Ghostbloods probably know about Hemalurgy. I'd like to see a Dysian Aimian (Mraize, assuming that I'm correct and he is a Dysian) with little tiny Hemalurgic spikes in all of their hordlings.

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I don't think Mraize is a Dysian. Why would he be?

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We also have a WOB saying there has been an on screen kandra so that is probably what Brandon is referring to when he says we have seen on screen hemalurgy in stormlight.

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