Passion Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 When I finished the book the main question I found myself pondering was so what in the world made honor and cultivation switch sides? I mean humans coming to rasher murdering parshendi and destroying the world the shards created wasn’t going to endear them to everybody! Then I realized it prob. Happened in the reverse. Prob. Odium changed sides and began to interfere to help the parshendi, maybe he saw an opportunity to interfere with honor and cultivation maybe he just liked their passion or whatever. After that honor and cultivation felt pity for the humans odium abandoned helplessly to the fused, maybe they also felt odium had manipulated humans and the humans weren’t to blame. Or maybe the just felt with odium attempting to work with parshendi they didn’t have any other tool with which to stop him but to work against him with the humans. Anyhow that’s my theory... odium betrayal came first and the other shards simply reacted. That’s the only thing I can see bringing honor and cultivation over to the human side. What do u guys think? Upvote or downvote as u wish! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Investor Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 I've been wondering the same thing. Something about the timeline seemed suspicious. My best guess is that humans were present before the arrival of Odium. As such both humans and singers were followers of Honor and Cultivation. Then Odium comes along, can't take out H&C, and instead instigates a fight between the humans and singers, possibly by convincing the humans to expand outside their given territory. The singers are then upset, and Odium comes to them and offers to help fight off the violent humans, and some dedicate themselves to become the fused. H&C and Odium then wage a proxy war, with humans and singers on both sides. I'm not sure this is exactly how it went, but it seems very likely to me that a messy beginning is the most likely possibility instead of a straightforward story as the Fused like to tell or that the spren remember. Speaking of spren, I'm not sure where they would fit in, or how their "betrayal" to the singers went down. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bliev Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 I wondered if the “they brought their god” with them wasn’t so much that they worshipped Odium per se. I truly think they were fleeing him. I wonder if “the thrill” followed them, tracked them down, and that’s what started the war against the Parshendi. If humans started the war under Odium’s provocation and control, Honor could have tried to do the honorable thing and save them, which may have felt like betrayal to the Parshendi who were being victimized, leaving them open to Odium’s influence. But that’s pure speculation as well. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistform Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 I think the "betrayal" of the spren was them giving Surges to the humans rather than the parsh because they had tastier imaginations / spren were shaped by their ideas more. The Words of Radiance epigraphs support that. I like the theory, we definitely have an imperfect time line; for example in Oathbringer Malata mentions that the "widespread worship of Honor destroyed many Ashspren (releaser/dustbringer spren). Quote "The betrayal of spren has brought us here. / They gave their Surges to human heirs, / But not to those who know them most dear, before us. / ’Tis no surprise we turned away / Unto the gods we spent our days / And to become their molding clay, they changed us." -song of secrets 40th stanza -Epigraph to ch 28 of Words of Radiance Quote "The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. / Our minds are too close to their realm / That gives us our forms, but more is then / Demanded by the smartest spren, / We can’t provide what the humans lend, / Though broth are we, their meat is men." - Song of Spren, 9th stanza Words of Radiance ch 32 epigraph Quote "But it is not impossible to blend / Their Surges to ours in the end. / It has been promised and it can come. / Or do we understand the sum? / We questioned not if they can have us then, / But if we dare to have them again." - Song of Spren, 10th stanza Words of Radiance ch 33 epigraph 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.S.A.M.K.M Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 We know that humans are able to travel between worlds, what if some followers of odium made their way to Roshar and for some reason converted? Then when their homes were destroyed, they and other like minded survivors escaped and mass converted. It might be how they survived the disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleid Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 18 minutes ago, Mistform said: I think the "betrayal" of the spren was them giving Surges to the humans rather than the parsh because they had tastier imaginations / spren were shaped by their ideas more. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.S.A.M.K.M Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 Don't forget some shards like to rewrite history or give very unique perspective on what happens around them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistform Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 Yeah, Odium seems like the type to lie to you, but the creation of the Oathpact seems to indicate Shards are bound to keep certain oaths/promises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejopen27 Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 On 12/6/2017 at 10:44 PM, Wandering Investor said: I've been wondering the same thing. Something about the timeline seemed suspicious. My best guess is that humans were present before the arrival of Odium. As such both humans and singers were followers of Honor and Cultivation. Then Odium comes along, can't take out H&C, and instead instigates a fight between the humans and singers, possibly by convincing the humans to expand outside their given territory. The singers are then upset, and Odium comes to them and offers to help fight off the violent humans, and some dedicate themselves to become the fused. H&C and Odium then wage a proxy war, with humans and singers on both sides. I'm not sure this is exactly how it went, but it seems very likely to me that a messy beginning is the most likely possibility instead of a straightforward story as the Fused like to tell or that the spren remember. Speaking of spren, I'm not sure where they would fit in, or how their "betrayal" to the singers went down. I mostly agree with this. Also, since when do all humans agree to do the same thing. The war in Ashyn the humans were fleeing was most likely a war between human who fought with Odium/Odious power, and those who didn't. The refugees were non-Odium followers who thought they had escaped him. But Odium weaseled his way into the hearts of Men, who above all else desire power. Later Odium prayed upon the hatred and anger of the victimized Singers to switch them over. And unlike humans, who need to be cracked to let investiture in, the Singers had a built in feature that allowed it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyndrunner Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 I don't remember when exactly this happens but I seem to remember the Stormfather saying that the land of Shinovar was given to the humans when they arrived. Perhaps humans came seeking Asylum from Odium and they got into skirmishes with the Dawnsingers but then Honor and Cultivation stepped in to create Shinovar. Then perhaps with Odium's arrival enough humans decided to attack the Dawnsingers and were so named Voidbringers. I think their attack on the Dawnsingers caused the creation of the first spren of Odium, the spren who occupy the Fused, the souls of vengeful ones long since killed. These vengeful spirits would then have been twisted and used to occupy the Dawnsingers, due to their susceptibility in that they have a gemheart that can could be occupied by an Odiumspren. With a weakness in the Dawnsingers' anatomy and their spiritwebs broken down by war and the desire for Vengeance, I believe Honor and Cultivation likely had to turn to the ancient kings of men: the Heralds, and thus begin the Oathpact. This Betrayal of the Shards would then have finally pushed the Dawnsingers too far and would have turned them into the new Voidbringers. Although humans would have still been used by Odium, I think Odium would have seen the Dawnsingers as a much more useful vessel for his power. There's likely some important factors that Brandon just hasn't decided to give to us yet to complete the picture but this makes the most sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catladyman Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 Here's what I find most confusing about the timelines.. Heralds/Honorsblades/Oathpact are created to keep Odium's forces on Braize and stop Desolations Spren mimic Honorblades and begin to form Nahel bonds If the Nahel spren are mimicking the Heralds, what did that first Desolation look like that forced Honor to create the Oathpact? The Dawnsingers weren't "betrayed" by the spren until after the Oathpact was in place. Guess we'll just have to spend the next few years nitpicking WoB's trying to get a better understanding of this timeline.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejopen27 Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 The Oathpact was formed before the first Desolation from the Humans perspective. When the Fused started returning. Not the desolation from the PoV of the Singers. 9 minutes ago, Catladyman said: Here's what I find most confusing about the timelines.. Heralds/Honorsblades/Oathpact are created to keep Odium's forces on Braize and stop Desolations Spren mimic Honorblades and begin to form Nahel bonds If the Nahel spren are mimicking the Heralds, what did that first Desolation look like that forced Honor to create the Oathpact? The Dawnsingers weren't "betrayed" by the spren until after the Oathpact was in place. Guess we'll just have to spend the next few years nitpicking WoB's trying to get a better understanding of this timeline.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 Odium was humanity's God in the same sense that smallpox was my ancestors' disease. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.S.A.M.K.M Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 I wonder if the unmade messed with the humans causing them to move beyond the lands they were granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 Does anyone else think 'The Girl Who Climbed' may well be a metaphor for the first Human/Spren bond? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Investor Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 On 1/4/2018 at 3:42 AM, Bort said: Does anyone else think 'The Girl Who Climbed' may well be a metaphor for the first Human/Spren bond? I suspect this is more likely to be them leaving Shinovar for the first time, which then led to conflict, which then led to the spren bond. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkboy Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) On 07/12/2017 at 3:44 AM, Passion said: I mean humans coming to rasher murdering parshendi and destroying the world the shards created wasn’t going to endear them to everybody! Spoiler Sorry, being nitpicky, but technically Honour and Cultivation didn't create Roshar. The only shards to create a whole new planet are Preservation and Ruin. Every other shard (we know of) has taken up residence on an existing planet / system. A lot of those systems already had magic etc too, designed by Adonalsium, which was taken up by the shards in question. We know that Highstorms exsisted on Roshar before the Shattering for example: WoB #3 - https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173-oathbringer-san-francisco-signing/#e8624 And I'm sure he's said before that Spren can exist in other places (The Sel on Nalthis are technically the same as Spren). We also know that the world humans fled is Ashyn, who's magic revolves around sickness. Yet somehow they destroyed their world with surges - magic that was apparently not initially present on their world. THAT'S what interests me most about this idea. Something definitely doesn't add up. Edited January 8, 2018 by Arkboy Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejopen27 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 On 1/4/2018 at 3:42 AM, Bort said: Does anyone else think 'The Girl Who Climbed' may well be a metaphor for the first Human/Spren bond? No, I think it is a fable of the humans wanting to break out of Shinovar and into the rest of Roshar. The mountains of the Stormwall weren't just to keep the storms out of Shinovar, they were also to keep the humans in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solant Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 38 minutes ago, thejopen27 said: No, I think it is a fable of the humans wanting to break out of Shinovar and into the rest of Roshar. The mountains of the Stormwall weren't just to keep the storms out of Shinovar, they were also to keep the humans in. I feel like it may also hint at the roots of Stone Shamanism. Like, this is the land provided for humans to live on, complete with the flora of your home world. If you leave the soil and walk on the stone, there will be conflict. It also explains the strict avoidance of violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejopen27 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 10 minutes ago, Solant said: I feel like it may also hint at the roots of Stone Shamanism. Like, this is the land provided for humans to live on, complete with the flora of your home world. If you leave the soil and walk on the stone, there will be conflict. It also explains the strict avoidance of violence. i'M sure it's related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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