sonwarrior01

[OB] Uses of Adhesion

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I'm confused by how adhesion was used in the book and how it could be used in further books.

On the one hand, Bondsmiths and Windrunners probably have different versions of adhesion since it appears the surges help accentuate the "theme" of the specific order's oaths. For instance, I don't think Kaladin would have access to spiritual adhesion because you don't need to understand someone in order to protect them. 

However, it seems that the Windrunners are more "combat oriented" than most other orders. In that case, it would make sense that adhesion would have a use in protecting others, sort of how Kaladin used those windspren to protect those people in the highstorm. But that might have been proto-shardwielding. But the Stormfather said Dalinar's surges weren't of most use in combat. 

 

In other words, what in the world would a Windrunner using his or her adhesion surge to the fullest extent actually look like?

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@sonwarrior01 Well, the surge of Adhesion is called "The Surge of Pressure and Vaccum" according to the Ars Arcanum. What we saw Kal doing with the windspren wasn't not controlling the wind, but rather altering the air pressure around his group so that's the wind from the storm wouldn't affect them. I'm not sure on the exact science of how this works, but that's the gist of it.

I can't think of many ways this could be useful on the battlefield, but you could probably cause wind instead of simply blocking it.

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27 minutes ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

@sonwarrior01 Well, the surge of Adhesion is called "The Surge of Pressure and Vaccum" according to the Ars Arcanum. What we saw Kal doing with the windspren wasn't not controlling the wind, but rather altering the air pressure around his group so that's the wind from the storm wouldn't affect them. I'm not sure on the exact science of how this works, but that's the gist of it.

I can't think of many ways this could be useful on the battlefield, but you could probably cause wind instead of simply blocking it.

Uses on battlefield:

  • Causing wind
  • Densifying air to the point it can halt physical objects
  • Allowing safe-haven through storms
  • Probably let's them go under water (WoB somewhere on a KR with adhesion being able to fly into space with an air bubble)

That's just off the top of my head, I'm not very creative. I bet we see a TON of cool uses from Brandon.

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Using adhesion in tandem with the dustbringers burny abilities could potentially create massive firestorms

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Seeing that it is the Surge of Pressure and Vacuum, creating a vacuum around an enemy can suffocate them, as well as causing a multitude of effects. That's just 'vacuum', there will be many other uses I'm sure, if we were to look at the physics aspect of it all!

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On 12/4/2017 at 1:15 PM, sonwarrior01 said:

 

On the one hand, Bondsmiths and Windrunners probably have different versions of adhesion since it appears the surges help accentuate the "theme" of the specific order's oaths. For instance, I don't think Kaladin would have access to spiritual adhesion because you don't need to understand someone in order to protect them. 

What I think is happening is this:

For each surge there is a basic way of utilizing that power. In the case of Adhesion it would be what Szeth calls a "Full Lashing" because we see both Dalinar and Kaladin use this form of lashing. 

Beyond the basic form of lashing for each surge there are specialized surges separated into the three realms and then divided among the orders. Dalinar obviously has Spiritual Adhesion and I don't think its really a stretch to think that Kaladin has access to Physical Adhesion. Spiritual Adhesion works in a similar way as Feruchemical connection from Mistborn, while Physical Adhesion controls Vacuum/Pressure to a greater extent. I don't think that Dalinar could change pressure/vacuum in the same way that kaladin can and I don't think that Kaladin can learn to speak other languages like Dalinar can.

But what about Cognitive Adhesion? Well I have a strange Idea and we are going to have to look at a surge other than Adhesion to get a hint about it. 

Lets look at Renarin, and he has been disused at length in other threads, but I will give a brief synopsis. Renarin's spren Glys has been corrupted by Sja-anat and we have strong situational evidence that suggests that Renarin has the ability to use some form of Voidbinding.

For further details look Here and Here.(let me know if these actually work or not.) 

From those discussions there have been good arguments that Renarin has access to the Surge of Progression as all other Truthwatchers possess, but he also has access to the voidsurge of Illumination. A voidsurge that allows him to see the future. And which of the three realms allows for seeing into the future? None other than the spiritual. Therefore I think that the voidsurge of Illumination is actually Spiritual Illumination, literally illuminating the spiritual realm to see the future. 

Given Renarin as an example, I think that the Voidbinders have access to the realmatic surges that the Knights do not have access to. So, Cognitive Adhesion will only used by a full on Voidbinder or a Knight who's spren has been corrupted.

That being said, this all my take on the magic system as it stands now and feel free to pick it apart. 

Edited by Varenus
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So... Vacuum/pressure is very misused so far. I mean... Done right you could  create pressure bubbles within them that block up blood flow, burst internal organs, suffocate them, rip their eyes from their heads, burst their eardrums, etc.... It could get really messy. But the radiants don't necessarily have the... knowledge of this and Bondsmiths probably can't use them in that kind of way. But windrunners. Scary. 

Edited by Aminar
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Gancho, can you stick ME to the wall?’

I guess I took Adhesion as more than manipulating Air Pressure and Vacuum.

All manner of random and oddments suddendly become useful. Sticking things together seems sort of pranksterish a’la Syl, but functionally can be rather useful in any number of situations.

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Hmmm, Im assuming you dont  want to discuss Adhesion being used to stick things together?

Besides that, Kaladin unconciously used physical Adhesion when he tried to block the Highstorm and when he was flying a large group of people to keep everyone together and minimize wind resistance. We know from Brandon that Windrunners can also create pockets of air to travel through space and likely under water as an extension.

I'm pretty sure spiritual Adhesion along with spiritual Gravitation is what lends to the Windrunner resonance.

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Thanks people! I really like the creativity. 

Quote

I'm pretty sure spiritual Adhesion along with spiritual Gravitation is what lends to the Windrunner resonance.

I really like this. It makes sense that the surges' resonances would come from not how the spiritual/cognitive and maybe even the physical aspects would interrelate. 

Quote

For further details look Here and Here.(let me know if these actually work or not.) 

From those discussions there have been good arguments that Renarin has access to the Surge of Progression as other all other Truthwatchers possess, but he also has access to the voidsurge of Illumination.

@Varenus I do think those pages give good evidence for that Renarin has access to some sort of Voidbinding surge and I really like how your hypothesis on voidbinding being the surges in different realms. But I don't think his ability to see the future would be spiritual illumination. The Ars Arcannum says the following about illumination

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Illumination: The surge of light, sound, and various wave-forms (Kindle Location 25086 out of 25411).

[...]

This method has a powerful spiritual component, requiring not just a full mental picture of the intended creation, but some level of Connection to it as well. The illusion is not based simply upon what the Lightweaver imagines, but upon what they desire to create. (Kindle Location 25138 out of 25411). 

It seems like the illumination surge is centered around the manipulation of waves and also already requires a spiritual component. As such it seems to me that having the future vision not be spiritual illumination because all illumination information we have to this point involves the desire of the surge/voidbinder. Renarin, as a good Vorrin, would not  want this to be happening.

My theory (without much justification) is that the future sight is a corrupted resonance between the voidbinding and surgebinding. I think this fits because while the other resonances we see can be intentionally used (like Shallan's memory) they tend to be instinctive or beyond control (like Kaladin's strength of squires and whatever Lift is doing with the languages). I think the uncorrupted version would function similarly, but it would show the Truthwatcher facets of the truth from the present and/or past. 

 

Quote

Beyond the basic form of lashing for each surge there are specialized surges separated into the three realms and then divided among the orders. Dalinar obviously has Spiritual Adhesion and I don't think its really a stretch to think that Kaladin has access to Physical Adhesion.

Although this is basically the premise I had when I made this topic (and I agree with what you've written), I realized that the one example we have of the surges reacting differently to different orders both have to deal with a physical component of that surge. So when the Stormfather describes what is going on he says, 

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That surge that changed the stone is the other you may learn, though it may serve you differently. (Kindle Location 7928 out of 25411)

When we see Dalinar use this surge, he uses it to "heal" inorganic things in the physical realm. This implies that even when the surge is used in the same realm they react differently to different order. So perhaps the Windrunners could use spiritual adhesion to prevent their charges from wandering off? Perhaps more seriously it is what allowed for Bridge 4 to be so cohesive, though we never saw a draining of stormlight when Kaladin does his whole bind-people-together-for-their-protection thing.  

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Your powers will come when you are ready for them, not before, the Stormfather said. They cannot be hurried or forced.
But do not look toward the powers of others, even those who share your Surges. Their lot is not yours, and their powers are small, petty things. What you did in reknitting those statues was a mere trifle, a party trick.
Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle.

oathbringer Chapter 64. Binder of Gods.

i think the bondsmith resonance is the power of connection, his surgebind is different from windrunner/stoneward because of it

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36 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

Your powers will come when you are ready for them, not before, the Stormfather said. They cannot be hurried or forced.
But do not look toward the powers of others, even those who share your Surges. Their lot is not yours, and their powers are small, petty things. What you did in reknitting those statues was a mere trifle, a party trick.
Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle.

oathbringer Chapter 64. Binder of Gods.

i think the bondsmith resonance is the power of connection, his surgebind is different from windrunner/stoneward because of it

I think you're right. It makes sense that Connection would be his resonance because adhesion makes things stick together and tension pulls things together (aside from the fact that the Stormfather tells him that he has the power of Connection). 

So would this mean that the how each surge can be used is determined by the resonance? That seems like a chicken and egg problem. Unless it's one of those things where the context of how you have the power inherently describes how you can use the power. For instance, Shallan can use Lightweaving the way she can because the way transformation and illumination intermingle allows for the taking of memories. 

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@sonwarrior01 I admit that the future sight might be Renarin's resonance, but I am hesitant for a few reasons:

1) Resonance as not actually been solidly defined in the canon as of yet and we have never had one of our Knight's even mention it. 

2) Nightform is known for its ability to see the future. The fact that Renarin's resonance just happens to be the same as Nightform's ressonance/surge seems extremely unlikely. it's more likely IMO that they simply have the same surge.    

3) No resonance has been as incredibly powerful as storming future sight.

4) Surges can be used without meaning to use them as well as resonances. Kaladin for example.

Also, 

5 hours ago, sonwarrior01 said:

It seems like the illumination surge is centered around the manipulation of waves and also already requires a spiritual component. As such it seems to me that having the future vision not be spiritual illumination because all illumination information we have to this point involves the desire of the surge/voidbinder. Renarin, as a good Vorrin, would not  want this to be happening.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. The Ars Arcanum seems to only talk about the physical forms of each surge. How does Dalinar's use of Adhesion to speak another language fall under the purview of vacuum/pressure? I don't think the laws of physics that we know are sufficient to talk about the dynamics of other realms. 

Also, I think that that paragraph in the Ars Arcanum is talking specifically about Lightweaving, the physical aspect of illumination. Shallan uses illumination in the physical, but still needs spiritual connection. Perhaps Renarin would also need some spiritual connection to use illumination in the Spiritual realm, but the actual target of the surge would be in the spiritual realm instead of the physical realm like Shallan. If you read the Ars Arcanum for the basic lashing, it also has a spiritual component, but the effect is still physical.

I don't think we know enough about Renarin to definitively state what he wants or even that he is a good vorin. And there is some wiggle room with the whole desire/intent thing. Kaladin used gravitation to save his life on bridge runs, but he was so depressed his life meant nothing to him. 

5 hours ago, sonwarrior01 said:

I realized that the one example we have of the surges reacting differently to different orders both have to deal with a physical component of that surge

I was referring to when Dalinar stuck that one ardent to the floor with a full lashing when they were dueling. 

5 hours ago, sonwarrior01 said:

When we see Dalinar use this surge, he uses it to "heal" inorganic things in the physical realm. This implies that even when the surge is used in the same realm they react differently to different order.

Can you clarify what you mean by this? Do you mean that Dalinar is using Adhesion or Tension? It is never explicitly stated what surge he uses there to my knowledge. It could just be the basic lashing for Tension applied in a way other than how the Stoneward used it, but there are other explanations.   

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@Varenus Sorry for the late reply. School and work exist. Alas. 

 

Quote

1) Resonance as not actually been solidly defined in the canon as of yet and we have never had one of our Knight's even mention it. 

2) Nightform is known for its ability to see the future. The fact that Renarin's resonance just happens to be the same as Nightform's ressonance/surge seems extremely unlikely. it's more likely IMO that they simply have the same surge.    

Although I agree with you completely about how resonance hasn't been canonically defined, based off of what we do know it seems that it is an almost mathematical way the resonances work throughout the cosmere. There is a WOB somewhere that resonance works in a way similar to how a feruchemical ability and an allomatic ability would combine to create some weird effects. This makes me think (without a whole lot in the way of evidence) that resonance works kind of like how two waves colliding would create a very specific waveform as a result. 

So if future sight is a surge that is the end of the story. However, if future sight is just the product of how void-illusion interacts with any kind of progression then it is probable for this to happen as long as the Nightform had access to both of these surges. I like this idea because the depiction of voidbind we have seems to indicate that they have access to more than one surge as well, which would allow for resonances. 

I have no quibble with your other objects. They are excellent points. 

On 12/5/2017 at 2:02 PM, Varenus said:

I wouldn't be too sure about that. The Ars Arcanum seems to only talk about the physical forms of each surge. How does Dalinar's use of Adhesion to speak another language fall under the purview of vacuum/pressure? I don't think the laws of physics that we know are sufficient to talk about the dynamics of other realms.

This is a very good point. It would make sense for an outside observer to only confidently talk about how the physical sides of these surges would work. Your point about it talking about Lightweaving instead of the illusion surge is also good. 

 

On 12/5/2017 at 2:02 PM, Varenus said:

I don't think we know enough about Renarin to definitively state what he wants or even that he is a good vorin. And there is some wiggle room with the whole desire/intent thing. Kaladin used gravitation to save his life on bridge runs, but he was so depressed his life meant nothing to him.

I was assuming that Renarin was a "good" Vorin because of how uncomfortable he is with how "feminine" his strengths are. But didn't Kaladin use his surges not to save his own life but the lives of the fellow bridgemen?

On 12/5/2017 at 2:02 PM, Varenus said:

Can you clarify what you mean by this? Do you mean that Dalinar is using Adhesion or Tension? It is never explicitly stated what surge he uses there to my knowledge. It could just be the basic lashing for Tension applied in a way other than how the Stoneward used it, but there are other explanations.

I was assuming that Dalinar used Tension here because the effect was permanent. We have yet to see a use of the Adhesion surge that didn't need to be renewed at some point. Also, I want to say that he used tension in a way unique to the Bondsmiths because he could only use the Tension surge when he "heard" the stone asking to be united. To be bonded together as it once was. If that was what it took for him to use the surge then it combines with what the Stormfather said about Tension be available to him in a different way than for the Stonewards. 

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13 minutes ago, sonwarrior01 said:

Sorry for the late reply. School and work exist. Alas

Tell me about it, week before finals week.:wacko:

13 minutes ago, sonwarrior01 said:

But didn't Kaladin use his surges not to save his own life but the lives of the fellow bridgemen?

As usual, I forgot something vitally important. Good point about Renarin as well.

13 minutes ago, sonwarrior01 said:

I was assuming that Dalinar used Tension here because the effect was permanent. We have yet to see a use of the Adhesion surge that didn't need to be renewed at some point. Also, I want to say that he used tension in a way unique to the Bondsmiths because he could only use the Tension surge when he "heard" the stone asking to be united. To be bonded together as it once was. If that was what it took for him to use the surge then it combines with what the Stormfather said about Tension be available to him in a different way than for the Stonewards.

I mostly agree, I would like to formally invite you to this thread on Surgebinding where I go onto some of the details about what I think is happening(look in the comments not the OP for the Dalinar bit).

 

Edited by Varenus
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I raise the possibility that spiritual Adhesion is what gives Windrunners their enhanced squire resonance. They Connect others to them and because they are connected through the Nahel Bond to their Spren and the powers that grants, this means more people can get the fringe benefits of a Spren bond. I don't know if Windspren being sisters to Honorspren mean that they are able to facilitate this squire bond until they form their own Nahel Bond or are transformed/evolved in to Honorspren as the bond grows. Even with Kaladin's ascerbic personality he draws alot of respect and followers. Almost like he affects some kind of spiritual gravity well that gets people interested.

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3 hours ago, Lord Spiral said:

I raise the possibility that spiritual Adhesion is what gives Windrunners their enhanced squire resonance. They Connect others to them and because they are connected through the Nahel Bond to their Spren and the powers that grants, this means more people can get the fringe benefits of a Spren bond. I don't know if Windspren being sisters to Honorspren mean that they are able to facilitate this squire bond until they form their own Nahel Bond or are transformed/evolved in to Honorspren as the bond grows. Even with Kaladin's ascerbic personality he draws alot of respect and followers. Almost like he affects some kind of spiritual gravity well that gets people interested.

Hmm...as much as I like this idea, from the little of Resonances that we've seen, they seem mostly unrelated to the two abilities that make them up. The Lightweaver Resonance of mnemonic devices doesn't really seem related to their two surges, though I guess that not all Resonances have to be like that.

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6 hours ago, sonwarrior01 said:

@Varenus

I was assuming that Dalinar used Tension here because the effect was permanent. We have yet to see a use of the Adhesion surge that didn't need to be renewed at some point. Also, I want to say that he used tension in a way unique to the Bondsmiths because he could only use the Tension surge when he "heard" the stone asking to be united. To be bonded together as it once was. If that was what it took for him to use the surge then it combines with what the Stormfather said about Tension be available to him in a different way than for the Stonewards. 

I gotta say that response was well thought out; and although I disagree, you've raised evidence against what I perceived happened.

I'm of the opinion that Dalinar used Adhesion to repair the damage to the murals. We see during his trip to Azir how he Connects with the soldier to speak Azish. There's no reason to believe Tension was involved, so it had to be Adhesion or a resonance.  I believe the Surge is  called Adhesion and not Pressure for this reason. It utilizes Connectivity to influence the Surgebinders surroundings. Obviously in very different ways Windrunner vs. Bondsmiths.

The mural cried out on a Cognitive level to Dalinar that it should be one Connected piece. 

The flaw you pointed out in my thought process however, every use of Adhesion so far has been temporary.. hmm. Ill. have to think more.

Edited by DocHoliday
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On 12/5/2017 at 1:32 AM, Varenus said:

 

Given Renarin as an example, I think that the Voidbinders have access to the realmatic surges that the Knights do not have access to. So, Cognitive Adhesion will only used by a full on Voidbinder or a Knight who's spren has been corrupted.

That being said, this all my take on the magic system as it stands now and feel free to pick it apart. 

Interesting idea. It makes me wonder what Spiritual Soulcasting would be? If the typical Soulcasting is physical, and what Shallan did in Shadesmar was cognitive (?) ...

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8 hours ago, Tazren said:

Interesting idea. It makes me wonder what Spiritual Soulcasting would be? If the typical Soulcasting is physical, and what Shallan did in Shadesmar was cognitive (?) ...

Well, at some point the spiritual part is described as the perfect version of a person. Like what Shallan has drawn and Adolin saw when Renarin healed him. This suggests that it might be related to bringing the spiritual side more to the fore. Repairing breaks and the like. I'm not 100% sure how that work, but Truthwatchers seem the most closely linked to it. 

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11 hours ago, DocHoliday said:

I gotta say that response was well thought out; and although I disagree, you've raised evidence against what I perceived happened.

I'm of the opinion that Dalinar used Adhesion to repair the damage to the murals. We see during his trip to Azir how he Connects with the soldier to speak Azish. There's no reason to believe Tension was involved, so it had to be Adhesion or a resonance.  I believe the Surge is  called Adhesion and not Pressure for this reason. It utilizes Connectivity to influence the Surgebinders surroundings. Obviously in very different ways Windrunner vs. Bondsmiths.

The mural cried out on a Cognitive level to Dalinar that it should be one Connected piece. 

The flaw you pointed out in my thought process however, every use of Adhesion so far has been temporary.. hmm. Ill. have to think more.

dalinar don't gain a permanent knowledge of the language. and we see dalinar use stormlight to glue someone to the floor (kadash and some spearmen)

reknitting the statue is permanent and adhesion vanish after stormlight run out.

Edited by Fulminato
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Quote

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Could a Windrunner in Shardplate travel to other planets?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Uh, theoretically possible. Take a long time.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, it would. 'Cause he wouldn't need to breathe, if he's got enough Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, well, I mean, they can control pressure, so. You'd need oxygen scrubbers, but they can also, so... you can create a ball of air around yourself with their power anyway, so--

 

 

 
 
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5 hours ago, Aminar said:

Well, at some point the spiritual part is described as the perfect version of a person. Like what Shallan has drawn and Adolin saw when Renarin healed him. This suggests that it might be related to bringing the spiritual side more to the fore. Repairing breaks and the like. I'm not 100% sure how that work, but Truthwatchers seem the most closely linked to it.

But Truthwatchers do not have Transformation so how would they be involved with it?

14 hours ago, Tazren said:

Interesting idea. It makes me wonder what Spiritual Soulcasting would be? If the typical Soulcasting is physical, and what Shallan did in Shadesmar was cognitive (?) ...

Soulcasting is Physical Transformation, like you said. Manifesting and Shallan's personas is Cognitive Transformation, like you said. I think that Spiritual Transformation will act similarly to(Mistborn Spoilers):

Spoiler

Using Lerasium from Mistborn, though in a more limited capacity perhaps.  There is a WoB somewhere that talks about how Lerasium can be used to change a person's spirit web other than making them into a mistborn, so that is basically what I imagine Spiritual Transformation to be. We are already seeing similar abilities with Dalinar's Spiritual Adhesion being similar to Feruchemical Connection and Renarin's Allomantic Atium-like abilities. 

 

 

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On 7/12/2017 at 6:02 AM, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

Hmm...as much as I like this idea, from the little of Resonances that we've seen, they seem mostly unrelated to the two abilities that make them up. The Lightweaver Resonance of mnemonic devices doesn't really seem related to their two surges, though I guess that not all Resonances have to be like that.

creating a illusion need a perfect visualizazion of it and a connection to some degree. a shallan 'memory image' grant both of them, draw a memory isn't the only process obivusly, but it made way easy for shallan lightweaving.

we don't know much about solulcasting, but for transform something a good visualization of the final object can be very handy

 

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Kal's "spider-sense"  his ability to move with the wind and feel attacks and movements seems to be related to wind pressure and changes in the air. It also seems to aide his superhero falls. When he falls from a high distance, he lands with a burst of air and a cloud of dust rolls out from him

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