[OB] Oathbringer and powercreep?

[Krios]

@Fulminato If not for the WOB I would say that was for show, but how did she then soulcast like a boss during the climax of Oathbringer? I know she had unlimited stormlight, but where did she get the gems? There were a ton of spheres lying around, but I thought you would need a bigger gem for a bigger feat of soulcasting and not just the rather small moneyspheres.

[QuantumSpren]

According to the Oathbringer Ars Arcanum, gem types are tied but not essential to a radiant soulcasting.

Quote

Curiously, these gemstones seem tied to the original abilities of the Soulcasters who were an order of Knights Radiant—but they don’t seem essential to the actual operation of the Investiture when performed by a living Radiant.

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by QuantumSpren
Added Quote.

[Naerin]

I tend to agree about the powercreep going on in Oathbringer, but I differ slightly on the source. Yes, there are some huge power-ups that occur in Oathbringer, most notably Shallan I think, as has been mentioned (I think Dalinar's battery effect is intended to be read as a one-off power surge, due to having spoken an oath at the time). But for me the most jarring examples happen earlier than the climax, and involve the base-level Stormlight healing for all characters. 

In The Way of Kings, Szeth's chapters indicate that Stormlight would not heal a limb severed by Shardblades, and that Stormlight, while powerful, does not heal instantly or grant insane amounts of strength (in that first chapter, he is nearly taken out by a single Shardplate punch). These are clear, and frankly necessary limitations. It made Surgebinding a powerful but extremely dynamic magic system, where the practictioner felt supernaturally powerful but never immortal (thus avoiding the Superman effect where conflicts become boring). These limitations were essential to creating that final amazing scene with Kaladin holding the bridge against the Parshendi. We could feel tense for him because we knew that while Stormlight made him fast and strong, he wasn't immortal. It could heal wounds but if he got a sword through the chest (we assumed) he was still a goner. 

In Words of Radiance this began to change a little. Szeth is portrayed as this unstoppable creature, and it's revealed that for Radiants, Stormlight can heal limbs severed by Shardblades. Still though there seems to be some limitations. For example Kaladin's scars don't heal. This initially appears to be a fairly classic limitation in magical healing systems: namely that old wounds are not susceptible. We later find out that this isn't the case. Stormlight can regrow completely severed limbs! Even squires that haven't bonded spren can do this! (incidentally this suggests that Kaladin's scars are part of how he sees himself) And we go from seeing Stormlight healing minor wounds or speeding the healing process to watching Kaladin regenerate broken legs and feet in seconds. 

But it is in Oathbringer where it starts to go a little too far in my opinion. Before this, we could maintain the illusion of tension because, despite Stormlight's awesome healing abilities, we assumed that a fatal blow would still put them down. Not so. Shallan literally survives being stabbed through the chest by a sword, and later shot in the head by an arrow. It actually got embedded in her skull, and then seconds later, after getting some help pulling it out (*cringe*) she was fine. I mean, seriously? What does it actually take to kill a Radiant? Decapitation? This is the biggest issue for me, since as long as there is stormlight, the protagonists are basically immortal against the vast majority of enemies. And on top of that they also have absolutely amazing offensive powers. Honestly, Kaladin's fight in the arena in WoR, or at the bridge in WoK, had far more tension than his brief encounters with Fused in this book. Because (since they are not using Shard weapons) we know that even if they get in a lucky hit and spear him through the chest...he'll just walk it off. Thus the only tension becomes running out of Stormlight, and fights become more about resource management than anything else, whereas previously fights were far more about skill, positioning, even luck. We can see the shift in the last two parts of Oathbringer. Where does the tension come from in Shadesmar? Lack of Stormlight. Why do the Radiants seem so overpowered in the final battle? Because now they have lots of Stormlight. How is tension re-introduced at the end? They start to run out of Stormlight. The most intimidating new enemies: the Thunderclasts, and the Unmade-enhanced Amaram, both seem almost trivialized. Renarin is literally crushed by one but then...walks it off. Kaladin has trouble with Amaram, but only seems in danger of really losing right at the end because...he runs out of Stormlight. 

Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed Oathbringer, but I do agree with some of the concerns being raised about power creep, especially since we are only 3 books into a 10 book arc. And I think the main culprit is the healing potential of Stormlight, which seems a little unbalanced at this point, even before our heroes get freaking Shardplate to protect them! 

[KOOZ]

Regarding the power creep, I posit that this is more a question of balance and the increasing stakes and more powerful pieces being brought in on both sides.

Expanding upon the ideas expressed here, among others:

2 hours ago, Ryder said:

I think the powercreep in OB could be countered somewhat by other types of fused.  As far as I can remember, we've only seen one combat oriented type of fused so far, the flying ones, plus a few thunderclasts.  We know of at least smokeform, nightform, and decayform, which all sound pretty nasty.  I'm guessing as the singers begin to consolidate their positions in the other kingdoms and start conquering the surrounding areas we'll see new dangerous types of fused. 

Plus Shallan mentions that Re-Shephir could have killed all of them in their encounter beneath Urithiru, but instead wanted to learn.  What happens when she really lets loose?  Similarly we don't really know anything about Chemoarish, Dai-gonarthis, or Ba-Ado-Mishram yet and how they might counter the growing powers of the knights.  In the previous desolations the KR were fully staffed, had the heralds on their side, and humanity was still nearly destroyed.  I think we've only begun to see the sort of powers Odium is going to bring to bear on Roshar.

From the other side we have:

-the Fused; yes, they can be countered and killed, yet they had tens, if not hundreds of years of experience of actual fighting and using the surges, plus, they cannot die... they'll always (well, for the time being) be resurrected to fight another day (given the Everstorm and some willing Parsh); and they know the terrain really well - they fought this conflict several times before, and this time they ostensibly have even more advantages with the Everstorm

-the Parsh, which may account for a significant percentage of overall humanoid population on Roshar, are being actively brainwashed to join on side of Odium; the Parsh can do odiumforms as well, and that number will only be increasing

-some western countries joined the Parsh; the human coalition is by no means united, lands and populations of key founding partners are severely weakened and depleted (Jah Keved, Thaylen, Alethar) or even conquered; political machinations at odds with unification goals  are found within (Mr T...,tsk)

-the Unmade are starting to exert their influence - loss of Kholinar and,effectively, most of Alethar being one big result there; they can corrupt Oathgates thus limiting travel through Urithiru (though, hopefully, Sja-anat might add a few wrinkles here); likely some issued with spanreeds are their doing too (though I do not think we get an explanation for that yet?); besieging Roshar via Shadesmar - seems like no person going through Cultivation's perpendicularity is safe

-Odium's forces have ability to kill Heralds now permanently (cf Moash) and it looks like instead of Dalinar there is another proto-champion rising in their ranks; they also get an Honourblade to boot

-one of the Heralds switched sides, and he's also a KR! And he has a lot of recent experience killing protoradiants, and took almost his entire order with him...

-Radiants cannot all be trusted (Malata, looking at your quirky smile there)

-Odium himself takes to the field, intruding on Stormfather's visions, thud voiding this method of communication of safety

So, in light of all that, I am not at all sure that the KRs as they were, just starting to explore their powers, would have survived the increasingly crafty enemies  had their powers not been augmented. With Honor dead and Cultivation being less directly confrontational, we need Dalinar to do what he did, otherwise all the assembled KRs would have ran out of Stormlight (Szeth included - Nightblood would not have allowed him to do much). Also, we're otherwise effectively having a Shard vs Puny Human scenario here... even worse than the Kelsier and TLR meeting in terms of power disparity.

To conclude - so far, I am happy with the power-up balance Brandon does in his works - he clearly works from a limits on abilities perspective and has smart antagonists who also evolve along the way. Thus, I am not particularly worries that this will become an issue soon.

 

[Aleksiel]

54 minutes ago, Naerin said:

But it is in Oathbringer where it starts to go a little too far in my opinion. Before this, we could maintain the illusion of tension because, despite Stormlight's awesome healing abilities, we assumed that a fatal blow would still put them down. Not so. Shallan literally survives being stabbed through the chest by a sword, and later shot in the head by an arrow. It actually got embedded in her skull, and then seconds later, after getting some help pulling it out (*cringe*) she was fine. I mean, seriously? What does it actually take to kill a Radiant? Decapitation? This is the biggest issue for me, since as long as there is stormlight, the protagonists are basically immortal against the vast majority of enemies. And on top of that they also have absolutely amazing offensive powers. Honestly, Kaladin's fight in the arena in WoR, or at the bridge in WoK, had far more tension than his brief encounters with Fused in this book. Because (since they are not using Shard weapons) we know that even if they get in a lucky hit and spear him through the chest...he'll just walk it off. Thus the only tension becomes running out of Stormlight, and fights become more about resource management than anything else, whereas previously fights were far more about skill, positioning, even luck. We can see the shift in the last two parts of Oathbringer. Where does the tension come from in Shadesmar? Lack of Stormlight. Why do the Radiants seem so overpowered in the final battle? Because now they have lots of Stormlight. How is tension re-introduced at the end? They start to run out of Stormlight. The most intimidating new enemies: the Thunderclasts, and the Unmade-enhanced Amaram, both seem almost trivialized. Renarin is literally crushed by one but then...walks it off. Kaladin has trouble with Amaram, but only seems in danger of really losing right at the end because...he runs out of Stormlight. 

I don't know how I forgot this. Renarin being crushed by the thunderclast and brushing it off makes you wonder how bad Desolations without everstorm blowing the wrong way really were when thousands of Radiants were around. Add Shardplate to our heroes and they are near immortal. Good thing they are fighting immortal enemy whose main problem is running out of bodies to posses. 

I thought headshot would kill a Radiant, so after Shallan surviving a bolt to the head, I wonder if it missed vital spots and didn't kill her brain instantly, because the way I see it Radiants can recover from anything so long as their brain functions and there is stormlight.

[Arondell]

1 hour ago, Naerin said:

 What does it actually take to kill a Radiant? Decapitation?

 

I dimly recall Peter making a comment a long time ago that a crushing blow to the head would do it.  Also things like a shard blade through the brain and/or spine would be sufficient.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Arondell

[Wandering Investor]

I think a Shardblade through the head or spine will kill a Radiant.  Also, this isn't the first case of awesome healing we've seen in the cosmere. And similar to those examples, stormlight healing takes a lot of stormlight for big wounds. The arrow through the head probably cost Shallan quite a bit of light to heal. Sure, one arrow isn't enough, but do it a few times and Shallan is in big danger without a nearby stormlight source. So the big siege aside, where stormlight was aplenty, in other scenarios Radiants are very difficult to kill, but not impossible. Except for Renarin, his taking a Thunderclast punch to his... well everything, seemed a bit much. Unless he was consuming absurd levels of stormlight and it just wasn't really mentioned.

[Nymeros]

7 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

We've seen the flying ones, the Carapace-armored ones, and the Slick fused so far. I interpreted smokeform, nightform, and decaryform to be regal forms, although they could refer to potential fused as well. 

It is thought that Honor may have had a hand in regulating the Radiants. With Honor dead, the Radiants' powers, maybe even oath structures, may be able to shift/change. I don't think its ever been confirmed though.

I find that doubtful since Surgebinders were only brought into line when the Heralds stopped twiddling their thumbs. 

Honor was taken by surprise by the Rosharan Surgebinders and they basically roamed freely for centuries doing as they pleased. The only limits we've seen were the restrictions of the oaths which determined how much power the Surgebinders could access at which stages of development.

I don't see why or how Kaladin would be more powerful than an unoathed Honor spren bonded Surgebinder.

 

[Calderis]

Dalinar had just sworn the third oath. Like we've seen with Kaladin after an oath, he got a big one time power boost. 

He may have "supercharged" Kaladin later, but it was exhausting, and I bet it was only Kaladin 

I'm guessing we won't see another perpendicularity until oath 4, or until he's a full Radiant. 

As to the soulcasting thing, the devices need gems of the proper type, Radiants don't. Radiants do have affinities that they are stronger with though, and we've seen Jasnah's aplenty. Smoke, fire, and crystal. 

[Lord Spiral]

As others have mentioned Jasnah's soulcasting during the fight was supercharged through practically unlimited use of Stomlight and for being closer to the Cognitive Realm so she could see the beads and the Spren without having to "work" on the soulcasting mindset. (I imagine this is somewhat similar to the cross-eyed thing we have to do for those 3d illusions). She specifically mentions to Shallan that air is usually extremely difficult and then does it anyway because it's easier right now. She also mentions how the realms being close is dangerous because the power boost is making her feel invincible and she is worried about being too cocky.

 

As for Renarin getting squished, his use if Regrowth means he can heal super fast compared to natural Stormlight healing that the others do. Adolin mentions it based on the speed minor wounds got healed (compared to Kalladin and Shallan) before he charged the Thunderclast. Also from the one time we see a POV of Renarin using Regrowth on Adolin, he healed him instantly. It wasn't clear if he did some sort of Identity overlay on him (Adolin felt perfected for a moment) and was then healed instantly or if Renarin accidentally used a "full power" healing rather than specifically trying to heal the arm. It would make sense if healing faster took more Stormlight, similar to Feruchemical Gold Health usage (and why only compounders would heal that fast). But Stormlight running out wasn't an issue for Renarin. Not like...

 

Not like for Elhokar.  I may need to reread the passage to be clear on the specifics of that scene. But I got the impression that Elhokar didn't have enough Stormlight and wasn't a high enough level of Surgebinder to heal the spearwound rather than that being instantly lethal. Moash specifically kept twisting that spear until the Stormlight visibly went out. Not only was this wound getting refreshed by Moash but the Stormlight was healing everything (the gut wound and halberd wound) and would have been unable to focus on healing the lethal wound (similar to what happens in Elantris). For Shallan's crossbow bolt in the head, she was; a) already holding Stormlight, and b), it was a relatively small wound and would have used little Stormlight to heal. People do survive similar wounds to the head, usually with brain damage, like Shallan (one of the Dwarves in the Hobbit has an axehead in his head). In her case it was because she couldn't push the bolt out with healing like Miles does with the bullets in Alloy of Law And so she couldn't heal the parts of the brain where there was still a bolt.

 

I think this is why the training with Szeth is such a good chapter to compare with the others. Szeth is arguably the most skilled Surgebinder we have POV of but his abilities are hindered by the fact that he only has so much Stormlight and can only do so many lashings within the test. Compare this to Kaladin (who is almost equally skilled in lashings thanks to Highstorm training) just taking it from every gemstone nearby to the point where fused are tidying up so he can't cheat any more. (It was just 1 sentence in the book but imagine watching this fight on t.v. with a bunch of Fused in the background litter picking throughout the duration.)

 

And for all the supercharging at the end I can't help but think of Lift telling everyone to wait so she can inhale a buffet to replenish her Stormlight.

[ScavellTane]

I believe what we're missing is the Parshmen. Before loosing their Connection they would have multiple millennia of history and knowledge. Not to mention a complete willingness to bond with the Fused unlike the current Parshmen. The Fused, if all of them get bodies, could easily outnumber/outpower any army our heroes can muster right now.